Alcoa Signs Agreement With American Air

[LGA Fleet Service]

Iv'e never seen a complaining baggage handler before. They run to their jobs with a smile on their collective faces.....yeah right....

I've never seen complaining mechanics before either...they run to get those RON aircraft off the gate as soon as we call the GFO to let them know the next arrival for that gate is clear to land...yeah right...

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

I've never seen complaining mechanics before either...they run to get those RON aircraft off the gate as soon as we call the GFO to let them know the next arrival for that gate is clear to land...yeah right...

Worked at LGA for 10 years tell me why Ramp doesnt do all the towing.

And yes I complained every night about moving 15 Aircraft off the gate and put them back on again in the morning.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Update: 1,389 and climbing

Update: 1,410 and climbing

 

[Bob Owens]

If AA wanted to do that, fine.

Just goes to show how "TWU" you have become.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, I disagree with your position that AA and the TWU are responsible for the current state of affairs regarding outsourcing and compensation. AA and the TWU did not lower the bar; CO, TW, PA, People express, Northeastern, and even EAL did.

While they all may have had a small part the primary culprit is the TWU/AA team. CO, TW, PA, PE and Northeastern were no longer major players, even with their lower wages they could not compete, that’s why with the exception of CO they are all gone. The TWU has consistantly given massive concessions to a healthy carrier, AA.

By the way the TWU was over at Pan Am also, they were selling concessions over there till the day they shut the doors.

But the fact is that AA and the TWU undercut UAL, NWA, USAIR and non-union Delta for over 20 years.Our concessions did more to harm their leverage than carriers that failed.

1. Lorenzo took CO to bankruptcy for the first time in the early 1980s. After filing for chapter 11, he decimated the wages and benefits of all his employees; paying them far far below what the other legacies were making at the time. At this time, he also outsourced CO's heavy overhaul. It was just recently (around 1998 or 1999 I beleive) that the CO employees started to make an hourly wage and benefits slightly below what the other legacy airline employees were making. So, for close to 2 decades the CO people were making far far less than AA employees and the others. Don't you think that this situation had a negative effect on compensation?

First of all you are wrong. During most of that period Continental’s starting wages were higher than AA’s. At the same time that Lorenzo was slashing wages, which then led to terrible service and a bad reputation for the airline which drove away premium passengers, the TWU had agreed to B-scale. The wages and benefits of new hires at AA were no better than those at Continental. In fact I was offered a position at Continental in the late 80s, which paid more than I was making at AA but I turned it down because it was in LAX.

And don't forget, they still farm out heavy overhaul and outsource ramp everywhere but their hubs and large cities.

Historically AA has spent more money on outsourcing than any other airline. Sure the airframes are usually done in house but a very large percentage of the components are, and have been for some time, outsourced and AA has only had line maint in their larger cities ever since they took away push-backs.

2. twa- Carl Icahan arrived at twa in the mid 1980s which marked the beginning of it's end. It constantly lost money because of mismangement and karabu. In order to keep their company alive, the twa employees gave and gave and gave concessions to the company. Since the mid 1980s, they have been among the lowest paid in the industry. Don't you think that this helped lower the bar?

Ichans plan has become the model for the industry. While TWA may have been losing money Ichann was making money. That’s the plan, keep the airline in a constant state of crisis and funnel all the money out of the industry this way you can keep the employees from getting their hands on it. But it was and has been the TWU, a union at a carrier that has for most of these last twenty years been profitable and able to pay fair wages, that has led the industry with concessions.

3.Pan Am (the origional)- Pretty much the same as twa. Mismanaged and their employees paid among the lowest; as a result of concession after concession. Again, they also help lower the bar.

Again, TWU was there, besides the company failed, so they did not set any standards, failed companies don’t set the standards, AA did with the TWU.

4.People express and Northeastern-Two upstarts resulting from deregulation. Low wages and farmed out everything.

Both failed to compete with NWA, SWA,UAL etc, all carriers that paid more than either those two carriers or AA.

5.EAL- You probably wondered why I included this one. The reason is because even though we were victorious over Lorenzo,

Well I guess to someone who has become a TWU follower a stalemate is about as much of a victory as you can ever expect to see.

we still had concessionary contracts which put downward pressure on industry-wide compensation. Just before the strike everyone, except the IAM represented employees, had agreed to another concession of 20% paycuts.

Yes, because in order to get your costs in line with the rapidly expanding AA which was hiring new hires at 50% lower wages thanks to the TWU and B-scale EAL wanted more. Once again, EAL has been gone for over 15 years so how could you say that its responsible for the downward pressure on wages?

AA and the TWU are not responsible for the origins of outsourcing, paycuts and the "destruction of the profession", those I have listed above are. The B-scale was AA's way of responding to the COs,EAs,TWs,PAs, etc. of the world. AA's incumbants were isolated from paycuts (The first paycuts for senior AA people happened in 2003).

AA and the TWU agreed to outsourcing way back in the 50s. Its in the contract, in fact AA historically spends more on outsourcing than any other carrier, and thats even with the liberal TWU interpretation of outsoourcing where foreign and non-TWU represented employees work is counted as "in house".

Reagarding "ramp stealing A&P jobs", you mean like when AMFA at NW "stole" ramper's jobs in 2001?

Please elaborate? Besides a union should try to maximize premium paying jobs to provide more opportunity for their members to better their financial situation. The membership as a whole benefits more by maximizing the better paying jobs.

Has it ever occurred to you that AA wanted ramp to do pushbacks and airstarts because it was more efficient; not only in terms of compensation but in terms of one-time performance.

That’s a joke right?

At EAL, aircraft mechanics did the push backs. A flight would be scheduled to leave at say 1200. We would have the plane closed up and ready for push at 1150. But no mechanics were to be found. They were either in the breakroom, working on another aircraft, or pushing another plane. They would show up at 1205-1210 (b1tching and complaining every step of the way) look to see what type of aircraft it was (L-10-11, A-300, 757, etc),drive away in the van to locate a towbar, then get a pushout tractor, and then hook it up. Well now it is 1220-1230. It was so bad that the passengers formed the "WHEAL" club (We Hate Eastern Air Lines) and EAL (Eastern always late). At AA, the ramp can have the towbar and pushout tug hooked up 2 minutes after the plane is parked at the gate and the wheels chocked.

Add at least another 20-30 minutes to the delays and you have described JFK where Fleet does the pushbacks. All I know is at carriers where I did push backs aircraft never waited to be parked nor did they get pushed out late because we simply showed up late.

As for airstarts, it is just more efficient for ramp to do it. Airstarts are easy;dumping lavs are much more involved than airstarts. Do you feel that line mechanics should dump lavs?

Well as long as the NMB feels that it is mechanics work the answer is yes.
The fact is whether or not it makes sense or more efficient is not the question, the question is was it a concession or not? If we lost work, in order to improve productivity we should have recieved something of comparable value in return for that concession. Right now the TWU is collaborating with the company in trying to make more productivity improvements, from us, while offering nothing in return. So when negotiations start what would we have to offer? They have alraedy given everything away!

 

[Vortilon]

Yeah, the TWU was on a rampage in securing more tasks from A/C maint to give to fleet service over the last 20 years.
At one point in Dallas, I remember fleet service considering a name change to ramp engineers or something similar.
If that TWU favoritism wasn't obvious enough, they had an arrangement with the company to reimburse clerks who went to A&P school. There was no need for it. AA had thousands of Resumes on file from already licensed AMTs.

There are a lot more reasons for AAs AMTs to feel they have been slighted by the TWU then fleet service has.

This isn't a rip on fleet service by the way. A/C Maintenance lacked representation in the TWU. All fleet service did was capitalize on the situation. 😉

 

[Hopeful]

Yeah, the TWU was on a rampage in securing more tasks from A/C maint to give to fleet service over the last 20 years.
At one point in Dallas, I remember fleet service considering a name change to ramp engineers or something similar.
If that TWU favoritism wasn't obvious enough, they had an arrangement with the company to reimburse clerks who went to A&P school. There was no need for it. AA had thousands of Resumes on file from already licensed AMTs.

There are a lot more reasons for AAs AMTs to feel they have been slighted by the TWU then fleet service has.

This isn't a rip on fleet service by the way. A/C Maintenance lacked representation in the TWU. All fleet service did was capitalize on the situation. 😉

True, nothing personal against any individual from Line Cargo.
But when the TWU took the pushbacks and deicing away from the mechanics and gave them to line cargo, many mechanics hit the street. Many jobs were lost and the TWU gladly allowed it because OTHER twu members got those jobs so union dues were perserved. Mechanics were always the minority in this union and therefore could not get ample representation unless you were based in Tulsa.

Again, no animosity towards anyone in line cargo.

 

[Bob Owens]

If that TWU favoritism wasn't obvious enough, they had an arrangement with the company to reimburse clerks who went to A&P school. There was no need for it. AA had thousands of Resumes on file from already licensed AMTs.

Actually it was a good deal for the company. At the time they may have had thousands of resumes but they also had a lot of attrition. They would hire mechs, send them to six weeks of genfam classes and they would quit and go to another airline. By upgrading a FS clerk that was not likely to happen plus they would also lower labor costs by upgrading top paid FS clerks.The $19 FS clerk would start off as a $19/hr mechanic but be replaced by an $8/hr FS clerk.

 

[Oneflyer]

True, nothing personal against any individual from Line Cargo.
But when the TWU took the pushbacks and deicing away from the mechanics and gave them to line cargo, many mechanics hit the street. Many jobs were lost and the TWU gladly allowed it because OTHER twu members got those jobs so union dues were perserved. Mechanics were always the minority in this union and therefore could not get ample representation unless you were based in Tulsa.

Again, no animosity towards anyone in line cargo.

Question. Why exactly do you need a mechanic for either pushbacks or deicing? I don't see why an AMT is needed for either.

 

[Hopeful]

Question. Why exactly do you need a mechanic for either pushbacks or deicing? I don't see why an AMT is needed for either.

This is one of the reasons mechanics have lost more and more jobs over the years.
And no, it is not mandatory a mechanic pushes a plane back or even deices them. But I can recall many times when on the headset while pushing on aircraft back when the pilot developed a problem that we mechanics on the push crew were able to resolve and save some time. Nowadays, the captain calls maintenance and loses some time waiting for a mechanic. A mechanic had to work the flight anyway and stayed with it until departure, so why not perform the push back?
Now, because of mechanics' numbers being reduced or not being maintained after someone retires or resigns, we sometimes take delays because there are not enough mechanics to do the job.

Anyone can learn anyone elses job! ANYONE!

Maybe one day, you'll get your wish and theyll have one licensed mechanic to oversee 50 or so non-licesnsed mechanics and that one mechanic will sign off the maintenance checks and airlworthiness release, the RII check after an engine change and a slew of other responsibilities!

 

[local 12 proud]

Question. Why exactly do you need a mechanic for either pushbacks or deicing? I don't see why an AMT is needed for either.

Answer: You don't, it creates job security for the mechanics...

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Question. Why exactly do you need a mechanic for either pushbacks or deicing? I don't see why an AMT is needed for either.

Simple answer: Because the last set of eyes to see an aircraft depart from the gate should be a trained, skilled AMT. Why? Again, the answer is simple. The AMT knows what is wrong and what is right. Is that hydraulic fluid leaking? Fuel leaking? Lav. juice leaking? Or is it just water from the airconditioning bay?

Like Hopeful states, having a mechanic on the headset also saves time and money in the event of a discrepancy in the cockpit. No slam against FSCs but if the pilot said that he had a flickering HSI or "Off Flag" or high EGT would the FSC be able to rectify the fault? No. He wouldn't. Why? Simply because he isn't trained to do so.

Also, I have seen a AA FSC push an AA MD 80 tail into a RENO Air MD 80 tail and try and disconnect the tug like nothing happened. How about the recent Alaska Air MD 80 that had an emergency landing because a FSC put a hole in the a/c with a belt loader and said nothing about it?

My point is that trained, skilled eyes are needed with machines that travel with 100+ people just below Mach 1. I do not mean to imply that ALL FSCs are like the two examples I mentioned above. They are not. But they are also not like AMTs.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ---- Let me tell you a little story, that was told to me by one of my ex-LAX AMT friends! Years ago, Air Canada was pushing one of their L1011's out of a gate across from TWA's. At that time, they were using one of the local, non Union type, companies to do their puskbacks. Why, because they were cheap! Well, as the story go'es, they got the airplane out into the ally, and proceeded to start engines. Number 2, or tail engine, belched out a big ball of flame and smoke. At that point the man on the headset panicked, and through down the headset, and ran! Will luckily there was one of our mechanics watching all this! Ran over, put on the headset, told the pilot he had a engine fire, to cut the fuel, but keep it turning to blow it out! It worked! The company that Air Canada used was droped, and TWA got a lucrative ground handling contract out of the deal! So what's the moral to this story? Well, if all goes well, cheap is good! If not, your in a world of hurt! 😉

 

[Senor Pelon]

<_< ---- Let me tell you a little story, that was told to me by one of my ex-LAX AMT friends! Years ago, Air Canada was pushing one of their L1011's out of a gate across from TWA's. At that time, they were using one of the local, non Union type, companies to do their puskbacks. Why, because they were cheap! Well, as the story go'es, they got the airplane out into the ally, and proceeded to start engines. Number 2, or tail engine, belched out a big ball of flame and smoke. At that point the man on the headset panicked, and through down the headset, and ran! Will luckily there was one of our mechanics watching all this! Ran over, put on the headset, told the pilot he had a engine fire, to cut the fuel, but keep it turning to blow it out! It worked! The company that Air Canada used was droped, and TWA got a lucrative ground handling contract out of the deal! So what's the moral to this story? Well, if all goes well, cheap is good! If not, your in a world of hurt! 😉

I was there that day loading a 747 on gate 35. That incident happened right behind the 747 and the next thing I hear are chutes popping and people sliding down. We all ran to help the passengers that were sliding down. What I found out later was that the guy on the headset told the pilot he had a fire and ran away from the aircraft. The pilot not having any mroe communication with the ground ordered an evacuation. After that incident, TWA maintenance was awarded the contract.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Update: 1,410 and climbing

Update: 1,454 and climbing.