AA and the TWU did not "make a mockery" out of the seniority issue. Again, for the millionth time, it went to binding arbitration. You twaers just can't live with the fact that you were unable to use your very high twa seniority to staple and throw us nAAtives out of our own airline; or at least take our most desirable positions. Your (and all the other twaer's) constant crying , snide comments, endless lawsuits and grievances are proof that you and the other twaers would not accept anything less than full DOH. It has always been all or nothing with you twa people. Well, as a former twa f/a posted earler, they ended up with nothing. But you twaers still got a lot more than the people at EAL, Pan Am, and Braniff; these people got ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Alcoa Signs Agreement With American Air
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Bob Owens would welcome that with open arms up to a certain point; that point being keep line mx. The only way that he, as a line mechanic, can have parity with his AMFA/SW brothers , would be for AA to do what SW and ALL of AA's legacy competitors do;farm out ALL overhaul mx. Of course, once this happens, I don't think AA management would be able to resist it's natural urge and dispose of the 2,000 or so line mechanics that would remain (like NW did).
AA should also farm out most, if not all of the ramp service positions. Anyone can throw a bag on an airplane
I am former EA, as was some of my relatives. so I can say with authority that you twaers made out a hell of a lot better than EA people among others.
If AA wanted to do that, fine. But I would suggest they look at the problems that Alaska and USAir are having. They can also look at the problems that EAL and CO had when they tried it. And twa could have farmed out what ever job you did with them; but wait, I forget, you twaers worked for about the same pay that the outsourcing companies paid.
MCI transplant
Veteran
- Jun 4, 2003
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- #52
Fast forward to 2026 and the last remaining TWAers....
aafsc says:
---- Damn it! If that's what it takes!! I'll still be here in 2026! And aafsc will still be looking for those school bus, full of exTWAers to take his job, coming down I-95!!!! 
---- OH!!! aafsc! What did that man say? "Anyone can throw a bag on an airplane!"----- But he's just another exTWAer! What does he know? MCI,
It is easy to get under his skin...The boy has a problem
It is easy to get under his skin...The boy has a problem
MCI transplant
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- Jun 4, 2003
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<_< ----- I'm Sorry twaokc! The Devil made me do it!!!
Problem? You could say that! You know it's really a shame, I was even told we did some of Eastern's line maintenance on the west coast for them for quit a few years! I used to know some of their med.Management types. Seemed like real nice guys! But I'll be damn if I can remember their names! Guess it's been too long! I do remember something about being told that one of them hung himself in his garage! ---- And that was in the Pre-Lorenzo days!I thought this was the ALCOA thread...
The way you guys are blanking each other, you otta get a room...
"The continued decline" has been driven by the decisions of AA top management.
The fact is that St Loius had stellar performance numbers, management led the guys to believe that if they performed well that they would keep work, instead the company took work away.In other words the company lied.
The only party that they really have a case against is the IAM. The IAM represented them and agreed to waive their contract in order to make the aquisition posssible, they could have said "No". Instead they sold their members down the river because TWA owed the IAM hundreds of millions for the IAM run pension.
Coming from someone who defends the fact that they stole many, many maintenance jobs, (pushbacks, deicing,cabin inspections) I'll just consider the source.
The fact is that I've repeatedly stated that when AA and the TWU claim that they cant pay SWA wages "because we have OH" it's a lie.
We have OH because its cheaper and more efficient to keep that work in house. When UAL contracted out most of their OH their total costs for maintenance went up, not down, same with NWA.
As SWA expands they keep bringing more and more work in house and they have been doing some of their heavy maint in house.
The sad fact of the matter is that the main reason why our "legacy competitors" had to get rid of OH is because of the 20 year lead that the TWU gave AA in having cheap OH. Starting in the 80s with B-scale, Junior Mechanics and a 14 year progression to top pay(2 years as a junior then 12 years to top), that was then amended to the SRP program in 1995 that established a permanent low paid replacement for mechanics, then in 2003 the TWU undercut everybody (even those who had tried to lower their costs close to what AA already had through bankruptcy) by slashing compensation an unprecidented 25%!!!!
AA already had low cost overhaul in place, AA already had a huge competive cost advantage over other carriers such as NWA, UAL and USAIR where no such low cost mechanics schemes were in place.
In addition to low cost OH AA also enjoyed the fact that the TWU had transferred push packs and deicing to the lower paid Ramp. (Lets not forget the TWU created Junior Fleet Service Clerk)This allowed AA to completely eliminate line maintenance in scores of cities.
When AA was able to slash compensation by 25% (and climbing till 2008 due to inflation and job elimination) there was no way they could ever hope to bring their costs in line with ours. In order to do so they would have to cut guys from $35/hr to $12/hr. So they were forced to get rid of OH, thanks to the TWU at AA.
The fact is that the TWU is, and has been, the driving force in the lowering of wages in this industry for over 20 years. They are the Walmart of labor.
Bob, I disagree with your position that AA and the TWU are responsible for the current state of affairs regarding outsourcing and compensation. AA and the TWU did not lower the bar; CO, TW, PA, People express, Northeastern, and even EAL did.
1. Lorenzo took CO to bankruptcy for the first time in the early 1980s. After filing for chapter 11, he decimated the wages and benefits of all his employees; paying them far far below what the other legacies were making at the time. At this time, he also outsourced CO's heavy overhaul. It was just recently (around 1998 or 1999 I beleive) that the CO employees started to make an hourly wage and benefits slightly below what the other legacy airline employees were making. So, for close to 2 decades the CO people were making far far less than AA employees and the others. Don't you think that this situation had a negative effect on compensation? And don't forget, they still farm out heavy overhaul and outsource ramp everywhere but their hubs and large cities.
2. twa- Carl Icahan arrived at twa in the mid 1980s which marked the beginning of it's end. It constantly lost money because of mismangement and karabu. In order to keep their company alive, the twa employees gave and gave and gave concessions to the company. Since the mid 1980s, they have been among the lowest paid in the industry. Don't you think that this helped lower the bar?
3.Pan Am (the origional)- Pretty much the same as twa. Mismanaged and their employees paid among the lowest; as a result of concession after concession. Again, they also help lower the bar.
4.People express and Northeastern-Two upstarts resulting from deregulation. Low wages and farmed out everything.
5.EAL- You probably wondered why I included this one. The reason is because even though we were victorious over Lorenzo, we still had concessionary contracts which put downward pressure on industry-wide compensation. Just before the strike everyone, except the IAM represented employees, had agreed to another concession of 20% paycuts. Even the IAM said that they would have given 20% in return for Borman's resignation. EAL refused, and EAL was sold to Lorenzo. Lorenzo wanted CO style compensation at EAL. The line in the sand was drawn and everyone knows how it turned out. At EAL, we b1tched, cried, pouted, and pointed to AA's and UA's superior contract at the time and demanded parity. (much the same way you point to Southwest's contract with their mechanics).
AA and the TWU are not responsible for the origins of outsourcing, paycuts and the "destruction of the profession", those I have listed above are. The B-scale was AA's way of responding to the COs,EAs,TWs,PAs, etc. of the world. AA's incumbants were isolated from paycuts (The first paycuts for senior AA people happened in 2003).
Reagarding "ramp stealing A&P jobs", you mean like when AMFA at NW "stole" ramper's jobs in 2001? Has it ever occurred to you that AA wanted ramp to do pushbacks and airstarts because it was more efficient; not only in terms of compensation but in terms of one-time performance. At EAL, aircraft mechanics did the push backs. A flight would be scheduled to leave at say 1200. We would have the plane closed up and ready for push at 1150. But no mechanics were to be found. They were either in the breakroom, working on another aircraft, or pushing another plane. They would show up at 1205-1210 (b1tching and complaining every step of the way) look to see what type of aircraft it was (L-10-11, A-300, 757, etc),drive away in the van to locate a towbar, then get a pushout tractor, and then hook it up. Well now it is 1220-1230. It was so bad that the passengers formed the "WHEAL" club (We Hate Eastern Air Lines) and EAL (Eastern always late). At AA, the ramp can have the towbar and pushout tug hooked up 2 minutes after the plane is parked at the gate and the wheels chocked.
As for airstarts, it is just more efficient for ramp to do it. Airstarts are easy;dumping lavs are much more involved than airstarts. Do you feel that line mechanics should dump lavs?
1. Lorenzo took CO to bankruptcy for the first time in the early 1980s. After filing for chapter 11, he decimated the wages and benefits of all his employees; paying them far far below what the other legacies were making at the time. At this time, he also outsourced CO's heavy overhaul. It was just recently (around 1998 or 1999 I beleive) that the CO employees started to make an hourly wage and benefits slightly below what the other legacy airline employees were making. So, for close to 2 decades the CO people were making far far less than AA employees and the others. Don't you think that this situation had a negative effect on compensation? And don't forget, they still farm out heavy overhaul and outsource ramp everywhere but their hubs and large cities.
2. twa- Carl Icahan arrived at twa in the mid 1980s which marked the beginning of it's end. It constantly lost money because of mismangement and karabu. In order to keep their company alive, the twa employees gave and gave and gave concessions to the company. Since the mid 1980s, they have been among the lowest paid in the industry. Don't you think that this helped lower the bar?
3.Pan Am (the origional)- Pretty much the same as twa. Mismanaged and their employees paid among the lowest; as a result of concession after concession. Again, they also help lower the bar.
4.People express and Northeastern-Two upstarts resulting from deregulation. Low wages and farmed out everything.
5.EAL- You probably wondered why I included this one. The reason is because even though we were victorious over Lorenzo, we still had concessionary contracts which put downward pressure on industry-wide compensation. Just before the strike everyone, except the IAM represented employees, had agreed to another concession of 20% paycuts. Even the IAM said that they would have given 20% in return for Borman's resignation. EAL refused, and EAL was sold to Lorenzo. Lorenzo wanted CO style compensation at EAL. The line in the sand was drawn and everyone knows how it turned out. At EAL, we b1tched, cried, pouted, and pointed to AA's and UA's superior contract at the time and demanded parity. (much the same way you point to Southwest's contract with their mechanics).
AA and the TWU are not responsible for the origins of outsourcing, paycuts and the "destruction of the profession", those I have listed above are. The B-scale was AA's way of responding to the COs,EAs,TWs,PAs, etc. of the world. AA's incumbants were isolated from paycuts (The first paycuts for senior AA people happened in 2003).
Reagarding "ramp stealing A&P jobs", you mean like when AMFA at NW "stole" ramper's jobs in 2001? Has it ever occurred to you that AA wanted ramp to do pushbacks and airstarts because it was more efficient; not only in terms of compensation but in terms of one-time performance. At EAL, aircraft mechanics did the push backs. A flight would be scheduled to leave at say 1200. We would have the plane closed up and ready for push at 1150. But no mechanics were to be found. They were either in the breakroom, working on another aircraft, or pushing another plane. They would show up at 1205-1210 (b1tching and complaining every step of the way) look to see what type of aircraft it was (L-10-11, A-300, 757, etc),drive away in the van to locate a towbar, then get a pushout tractor, and then hook it up. Well now it is 1220-1230. It was so bad that the passengers formed the "WHEAL" club (We Hate Eastern Air Lines) and EAL (Eastern always late). At AA, the ramp can have the towbar and pushout tug hooked up 2 minutes after the plane is parked at the gate and the wheels chocked.
As for airstarts, it is just more efficient for ramp to do it. Airstarts are easy;dumping lavs are much more involved than airstarts. Do you feel that line mechanics should dump lavs?
LGA Fleet Service
Veteran
So Bob, who voted yes to all those contracts that allowed the company to transfer that work to fleet service?
Wasn't the clerks now was it?
Did you get a rate increase in those contracts?
Scream and yell about OSM and everything else that has been "done" to you, your own people are the ones who voted those contracts in.
If the contracts were that odious to M&E why were they approved?
Maybe in the halcyon days of 1991,95 and other contract years none of you guys already at top pay gave enough of a damn about the people who hadn't even applied for the job yet to object to OSM's and work being transfered to FS.
Whats that saying that is so popular at American? "I got mine,screw you."
AAFSC,
Not that Bob can't handle your comment; however, it's pretty clear that the baggage handlers have secured more work taken from Aircraft Maintenance then the other way around. Lets not forget cockpit window cleaning, and brake riding at certain class two cities as well.
As far as your assertion about convienence of having baggage handlers handling pushbacks and airstarts, I could come up with more reasons why it's not. Iv'e never seen a complaining baggage handler before. They run to their jobs with a smile on their collective faces.....yeah right....
These jobs will never come back to A/C Maintenance; however, lets not forget who gave what up to who - and for what. For Nothing - A/C Maint got nothing but the shaft! Who do we thank? the TWU of course. Why? simple - the international was controlled by Fleet Service partial people and a me only A/C Maint rep from overhaul - who could care less about line maint issues.
