Aircraft maint issues

[topDawg]

Ok, how about this...What if we truly got the best ever offer from the company in the industry uncluding pension and medical BUT the company wants the outsourcing numbers of DL and US.....Would everyone here still consider it an INDUSTRY LEADING CONTRACT?
When the company first said ILC, didn't everyone realize they wanted the scope like the others?

Why do we keep having to go over this?

Delta outsources ~35-40% depending on the year. American's max outsourcing is, IIRC 35% a year.

US airways outsourced 55%-60% of their maintenance.

You, your management and the IGM crowed aren't comparing apples to apples.

The only thing Delta outsources heavy is airframe overhauls. If it is 3 weeks or less it is generally done in-house. Engines, components etc are mostly done in-house. The few that aren't are generally legacy Northwest parts that had long term contracts into the 2020s. Most of that work has come in-house as contracts end. Hell we even have paint done in-house....

On top of all of that, Delta does that MRO work your management doesn't like and it ends up that we do more over all work in-house than you did just as American.

So, again, agreeing to "delta's scope" according to your management is nothing like they are saying. They mean "Delta's scope on airframe and we aren't doing engines, APUs, gear, and the other components in-house at all so that we can get to 60% outsourced" That is 20-30% worse than both Delta and United. (hell I think its worse than Southwest now)

What your company is wanting isn't nearly what Delta and even United outsource. Y'all are all just focused on airframe overhaul vs line and quite frankly are playing checkers while Parker and Co are playing chess. Take a guess what happens when you agree to your proposed contract and the company goes back into bankruptcy? Have you looked at American's balance sheet?

Settling for anything less than the current scope at American is down right stupid. Not only would you keep the jobs you have but because of all the work US airways outsourced y'all would probably grow by thousands. Just bringing in all the engine work alone would require a large investment in employees.

 

[Buck]

Why do we keep having to go over this?

Delta outsources ~35-40% depending on the year. American's max outsourcing is, IIRC 35% a year.

US airways outsourced 55%-60% of their maintenance.

You, your management and the IGM crowed aren't comparing apples to apples.

The only thing Delta outsources heavy is airframe overhauls. If it is 3 weeks or less it is generally done in-house. Engines, components etc are mostly done in-house. The few that aren't are generally legacy Northwest parts that had long term contracts into the 2020s. Most of that work has come in-house as contracts end. Hell we even have paint done in-house....

On top of all of that, Delta does that MRO work your management doesn't like and it ends up that we do more over all work in-house than you did just as American.

So, again, agreeing to "delta's scope" according to your management is nothing like they are saying. They mean "Delta's scope on airframe and we aren't doing engines, APUs, gear, and the other components in-house at all so that we can get to 60% outsourced" That is 20-30% worse than both Delta and United. (hell I think its worse than Southwest now)

What your company is wanting isn't nearly what Delta and even United outsource. Y'all are all just focused on airframe overhaul vs line and quite frankly are playing checkers while Parker and Co are playing chess. Take a guess what happens when you agree to your proposed contract and the company goes back into bankruptcy? Have you looked at American's balance sheet?

Settling for anything less than the current scope at American is down right stupid. Not only would you keep the jobs you have but because of all the work US airways outsourced y'all would probably grow by thousands. Just bringing in all the engine work alone would require a large investment in employees.

Top Dawg, I understand when TASEL left AFW the 35% rose a bit to 38%? but your point is made.

 

[Bob Owens]

Trying to keep who in the Association? You? Mechanics? All of us? This isn’t going to be that very old sales pitch for (ahem) that has nothing to do with me again is it?

As far as getting out of it if that’s where you’re headed, you do understand there are Lawyers and Courts that will Body Slam us in that area like Andre the Giant taking on a midget if we tried. Legally it’s not happening. Gary tried and yet here we still are. And you also know some other people tried as well.

The rest Title 2 and hanging out with the Pilots I’m not exactly sure about?

Obviously all of us that were thrown in to mess, but the sad fact is the mechanics are the only group that has ever attempted to hold the Unions feet to the fire and create options outside the AFL-CIO . If the TWU wont fight for us then we all should consider leaving. A union that's afraid to go to court in the interests of its members deserves to get de-certified. The IAMs divisive behavior should be enough evidence to dissolve the Association. The mechanics have a few options, AMFA, although the SWA leadership there isn't really exactly motivated because if they did get AA, SWA membership would become the minority. UAL mechanics are starting something new or we could create something new, our pilots did it, so did our Flight Attendants. As far as Fleet, Tim Nelson tried to get something going a few years ago. Due to the RLA each group is on its own. You cant expect mechanics to organize a group when they don't even get to vote in that group and each group has to file on their own.

"As far as getting out of it if that’s where you’re headed, you do understand there are Lawyers and Courts that will Body Slam us in that area like Andre the Giant taking on a midget if we tried. Legally it’s not happening. Gary tried and yet here we still are. And you also know some other people tried as well."


They never tried, they asked the Lawyers and then backed away from it, and that was FOUR YEARS AGO. Over these last four years IAM members have benefited at the expense of TWU members. By dragging talks out IAM members have received up to 640 hours more Holiday pay than their TWU counterparts, more sick time, more vacation time, Doubletime, OT for training conducted after their shift, and much cheaper Health Insurance. The fact is the IAM is still bitter about TWA, as we have seen comments here, and this is their way of getting back at us. If they do go to court and lose than they made that deal, not us, and we should leave.

 

[Bob Owens]

Why do we keep having to go over this?

Delta outsources ~35-40% depending on the year. American's max outsourcing is, IIRC 35% a year.

US airways outsourced 55%-60% of their maintenance.

You, your management and the IGM crowed aren't comparing apples to apples.

The only thing Delta outsources heavy is airframe overhauls. If it is 3 weeks or less it is generally done in-house. Engines, components etc are mostly done in-house. The few that aren't are generally legacy Northwest parts that had long term contracts into the 2020s. Most of that work has come in-house as contracts end. Hell we even have paint done in-house....

On top of all of that, Delta does that MRO work your management doesn't like and it ends up that we do more over all work in-house than you did just as American.

So, again, agreeing to "delta's scope" according to your management is nothing like they are saying. They mean "Delta's scope on airframe and we aren't doing engines, APUs, gear, and the other components in-house at all so that we can get to 60% outsourced" That is 20-30% worse than both Delta and United. (hell I think its worse than Southwest now)

What your company is wanting isn't nearly what Delta and even United outsource. Y'all are all just focused on airframe overhaul vs line and quite frankly are playing checkers while Parker and Co are playing chess. Take a guess what happens when you agree to your proposed contract and the company goes back into bankruptcy? Have you looked at American's balance sheet?

Settling for anything less than the current scope at American is down right stupid. Not only would you keep the jobs you have but because of all the work US airways outsourced y'all would probably grow by thousands. Just bringing in all the engine work alone would require a large investment in employees.

Keep in mind that AA reports its outsourcing as spend not Hours. Given the much lower wages in some of the places AA sends their work the Hours could be much higher if the 35% is spend.

 

[WeAAsles]

Obviously all of us that were thrown in to mess, but the sad fact is the mechanics are the only group that has ever attempted to hold the Unions feet to the fire and create options outside the AFL-CIO . If the TWU wont fight for us then we all should consider leaving. A union that's afraid to go to court in the interests of its members deserves to get de-certified. The IAMs divisive behavior should be enough evidence to dissolve the Association. The mechanics have a few options, AMFA, although the SWA leadership there isn't really exactly motivated because if they did get AA, SWA membership would become the minority. UAL mechanics are starting something new or we could create something new, our pilots did it, so did our Flight Attendants. As far as Fleet, Tim Nelson tried to get something going a few years ago. Due to the RLA each group is on its own. You cant expect mechanics to organize a group when they don't even get to vote in that group and each group has to file on their own.

"As far as getting out of it if that’s where you’re headed, you do understand there are Lawyers and Courts that will Body Slam us in that area like Andre the Giant taking on a midget if we tried. Legally it’s not happening. Gary tried and yet here we still are. And you also know some other people tried as well."


They never tried, they asked the Lawyers and then backed away from it, and that was FOUR YEARS AGO. Over these last four years IAM members have benefited at the expense of TWU members. By dragging talks out IAM members have received up to 640 hours more Holiday pay than their TWU counterparts, more sick time, more vacation time, Doubletime, OT for training conducted after their shift, and much cheaper Health Insurance. The fact is the IAM is still bitter about TWA, as we have seen comments here, and this is their way of getting back at us. If they do go to court and lose than they made that deal, not us, and we should leave.

With all due respect Bob, how old are you now? And the Company is your enemy. They’re the ones not giving you what you want. Otherwise although I didn’t quite agree with all of it, this was a pretty decent post from 1AA.

 

[Bob Owens]

Yes the company is our enemy , and a formidable one because all the rules favor them. We need to be unified in one Union, not split up between two, we need a union that's not afraid to challenge the rules a little.

BTW I don't think that IAA is right, AA guys would not see AA Medical benefits being imposed on the USAIR guys as a Victory, Everyone I know would rather have a cheaper plan, nor does anyone I know want to see them forced out of the IAMNPF, but with the years we have left we would lose if we were forced into that instead of the 16% 401k like the pilots get. Having been screwed once already with the promises of a DB (that 2/3rds of the way through our careers was cut in half)we have no desire to get screwed by being pushed into a "Lite DB".

 

[WeAAsles]

They never tried, they asked the Lawyers and then backed away from it, and that was FOUR YEARS AGO. Over these last four years IAM members have benefited at the expense of TWU members. By dragging talks out IAM members have received up to 640 hours more Holiday pay than their TWU counterparts, more sick time, more vacation time, Doubletime, OT for training conducted after their shift, and much cheaper Health Insurance. The fact is the IAM is still bitter about TWA, as we have seen comments here, and this is their way of getting back at us. If they do go to court and lose than they made that deal, not us, and we should leave.

Supposedly 3 different Legal groups said that they don’t have a leg to stand on to get out so of course they backed off. Only idiots would waste money on Lawyers that told them they have no shot at winning. As far as how many years ago what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

IAM Members have dragged it out. Didn’t TWU do the same thing by Gary filing the Legal notice with the NMB that the Association wasn’t a legal filing to make and the rest of the TWU waiting 9 months to begin the reconciliation process?

Both sides can play the blame game Bob.

And seriously not that they come across as the most sympathetic bunch sometimes but how is it their fault they concluded an upward Section 6 as we were going in to a downward Bankruptcy Agreement?

I also personally wouldn’t dream of trading my last 20 year career to my counterpart at LUS. Bob in the last 20 years economically you and I slaughter them.

 

[WeAAsles]

Yes the company is our enemy , and a formidable one because all the rules favor them. We need to be unified in one Union, not split up between two, we need a union that's not afraid to challenge the rules a little.

BTW I don't think that IAA is right, AA guys would not see AA Medical benefits being imposed on the USAIR guys as a Victory, Everyone I know would rather have a cheaper plan, nor does anyone I know want to see them forced out of the IAMNPF, but with the years we have left we would lose if we were forced into that instead of the 16% 401k like the pilots get. Having been screwed once already with the promises of a DB (that 2/3rds of the way through our careers was cut in half)we have no desire to get screwed by being pushed into a "Lite DB".

I’ll bet you a free trip here to South Florida that you’re not going to be forced into the IAMPF. Don’t know how much more you’d want me to bet you?

 

[AANOTOK]

I’ll bet you a free trip here to South Florida that you’re not going to be forced into the IAMPF. Don’t know how much more you’d want me to bet you?

I'm so confident it won't happen W you can go ahead and throw in my rights to Marvel Comics along with your bet.

 

[ATD]

I hate to admit it but Bob is correct..

 

[WeAAsles]

I'm so confident it won't happen W you can go ahead and throw in my rights to Marvel Comics along with your bet.

Give ya another reason it’s not happening. Team Care and IBT Veba over at UAL was shot down by 95 freakin %. 95%

That’s called a History lesson that few want to repeat.

 

[WeAAsles]

I hate to admit it but Bob is correct..

Didn’t get the memo from American Airlines who doesn’t seem too interested in the IAMPF?

 

[Bob Owens]

Supposedly 3 different Legal groups said that they don’t have a leg to stand on to get out so of course they backed off. Only idiots would waste money on Lawyers that told them they have no shot at winning. As far as how many years ago what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

IAM Members have dragged it out. Didn’t TWU do the same thing by Gary filing the Legal notice with the NMB that the Association wasn’t a legal filing to make and the rest of the TWU waiting 9 months to begin the reconciliation process?

Both sides can play the blame game Bob.

And seriously not that they come across as the most sympathetic bunch sometimes but how is it their fault they concluded an upward Section 6 as we were going in to a downward Bankruptcy Agreement?

I also personally wouldn’t dream of trading my last 20 year career to my counterpart at LUS. Bob in the last 20 years economically you and I slaughter them.

I didnt say IAM "members" dragged out anything, I said the IAM.

Gary's filing did not prevent the IAM and TWU from meeting during those 9 months to figure out reconciliation. Nor did it prevent them from meeting with the company, it was just an attempt by the Assocoation to turn Gary's members against him and an excuse for the Association which has now dragged it out to within 6 months of the Amendable date. If Gary had not filed we would be in exactly the same spot.

Yes they were in Section 6, but with a carrier with dim prospects. Where is USAIR Today?

I have 30+ years, so if we are talking trade then we have to look at that. IAMs failure at LUS started in 2002, prior to that they were wAAy ahead of us and had an admirable track record. They had secured language that kept them at Industry Leading, IIRC 2% above the highest. Through several rounds of BK they kept more Vacation, Holidays, work rules and better Medical than we did. They kept work for their A&Ps into the new millennium that A&Ps lost at AA in the 80s. Our out of BK concessions in 2003 undercut every carrier that had gone through BK and forced some of them into a second round of BK. So no, other than their second round of BK we are not economically ahead of them over a career. Stay away from going too far back into History because for A&P mechanics, especially Line Mechanics, the TWUs history is very bad.

 

[WeAAsles]

I didnt say IAM "members" dragged out anything, I said the IAM.

Gary's filing did not prevent the IAM and TWU from meeting during those 9 months to figure out reconciliation. Nor did it prevent them from meeting with the company, it was just an attempt by the Assocoation to turn Gary's members against him and an excuse for the Association which has now dragged it out to within 6 months of the Amendable date. If Gary had not filed we would be in exactly the same spot.

Yes they were in Section 6, but with a carrier with dim prospects. Where is USAIR Today?

I have 30+ years, so if we are talking trade then we have to look at that. IAMs failure at LUS started in 2002, prior to that they were wAAy ahead of us and had an admirable track record. They had secured language that kept them at Industry Leading, IIRC 2% above the highest. Through several rounds of BK they kept more Vacation, Holidays, work rules and better Medical than we did. They kept work for their A&Ps into the new millennium that A&Ps lost at AA in the 80s. Our out of BK concessions in 2003 undercut every carrier that had gone through BK and forced some of them into a second round of BK. So no, other than their second round of BK we are not economically ahead of them over a career. Stay away from going too far back into History because for A&P mechanics, especially Line Mechanics, the TWUs history is very bad.

Repetiva Ad Nauseam obsessiva. The year is now 2018 and we have learned to control fire to a small degree.

While you were gone all these issues have carried on being beaten to death. The stain in the road is no longer visible.

 

[WeAAsles]

Yes they were in Section 6, but with a carrier with dim prospects. Where is USAIR Today?

I wanted to come back to this. Just out of curiosity how would you have felt psychologically if Doug Parker and the new BOD had decided to keep the US Airways name for the merger and dumped the American Airlines name instead of the way it is today?

Would it have disturbed you to have to wear a US Airways shirt and hat and Management told you to take off your old AA Uniform?

Where is USAIR today? CLT, PHL, PHX, DCA, LGA and quite a few other places too.