Aircraft maint issues

[Deleted member 14439]

The new disclaimer has been the Company and the Association has placed a super secret password on the TA.

Hiding behind NDAs and top secret backroom handshakes is cowardly. They need to publish the information

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

What do you say about a dispatcher who goes to night school for 3 months spends less than half of what an A&P does for tuition, and only a fraction of the FAA required 1900 hrs of instruction - yet makes even more than an A&P? Obtaining dispatch qualification where i went to school was an elective. All that for a job that could pretty much be done with a cell phone app. As long as we are on topic of comparing jobs and pay vs education, nothing against pilots - my college roommate was one, but aside from the ratings and flight time, there isn't a degree requirement. Sure, it would be preferred, but not necessary.

Then for the fresh A&P school graduate, there are 3 FAA tests that must be passed, two written, and one practical with a DME. These are not free. Next step would be gaining experience to put on a resume', unless the budding A&P had some prior experience from the military for example. Most large airlines require 5 years heavy jet experience to qualify for an A&P position. Then if the applicant is successful, and gets hired - they can look forward to working night shift for many years, working on holidays, and having oddball days off. Last but not least, the applicant better be able to pass a drug and alcohol screening. Doug Parker couldn't even pass that.

There is a lot more to it, than you're suggesting with your post.

I agree that sounds flawed.

However, sometimes educational requirements have little to do with pay, otherwise our teachers would be better compensated considering they have to have at least a 4 year degree.

You asked me what I would say?

I would say if you think they have a better deal and the effort to qualify for that position would be minimal why are you not a dispatcher or attempting to become one?

Seems to me instead of criticizing their compensation you would be trying to get in on it yourself.

When you see people doing better than you don't criticize them., copy them.

 

[Buck]

Hiding behind NDAs and top secret backroom handshakes is cowardly. They need to publish the information

Oh I agree, but as you have noted this tactic has gone on forever with only the Association as part of the new regime.

 

[Vortilon]

I agree that sounds flawed.

However, sometimes educational requirements have little to do with pay, otherwise our teachers would be better compensated considering they have to have at least a 4 year degree.

You asked me what I would say?

I would say if you think they have a better deal and the effort to qualify for that position would be minimal why are you not a dispatcher or attempting to become one?

Seems to me instead of criticizing their compensation you would be trying to get in on it yourself.

When you see people doing better than you don't criticize them., copy them.

I'm not criticizing anybody, your post implied that becoming an A&P for an airline is very simple - for a relatively high paying job. I am giving you another example of a high paying job that requires even less education - as most of the training is OJT. I have no desire to be a desk jockey sitting in a fish bowel, that's why I never pursued that career path.

 

[swamt]

No it's not a community college (though we have that option as well) it is a tech school. They have the time listed as 11 months for both A and P (22 total) however, it is hard to estimate the actual time it would take to get an A&P as they are offered as a complete class and offer some redundant classes (Generals I and II are shared between the 2 and would only have to be taken once ). Keep in mind since they offer redundant classes the cost I gave you would actually be significantly lower than the $16917.40. The school is accredited by the state of Oklahoma and classes are transferable as college credit if so desired.

I know you think of it as low end tuition wise but I do wish you would use different phrasing as that has some negative connotations to it. Believe me the school is extremely nice. I know this from first hand experience.

This is the schools hanger. Look how clean it is.

The school is connected to a small airport.

If they are paying 34-35K for AIM they are getting screwed. Sounds like Spartan here in Tulsa.

Sorry for my choice of words. meant for "low cost" not "low end" as in quality or shape of outfit.
I'm also not sure if this was just A&P or if he was getting the full package offered. I say just get your A&P at the cheapest cost possible as it's really a lic to learn more.
The place you show looks fantastic and yes very clean indeed.

 

[swamt]

Agreed. I feel like the NC should be putting the information out to the members. Imho guys are going to be very surprised and terribly disappointed in what the company defines as industry leading.

Agreed about the NC puting out more info to the membership. And I also agree that T/A day will not go over well with the membership and probably not good for the NC either once it is all revealed as a T/A.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

I'm not criticizing anybody, your post implied that becoming an A&P for an airline is very simple - for a relatively high paying job. I am giving you another example of a high paying job that requires even less education - as most of the training is OJT. I have no desire to be a desk jockey sitting in a fish bowel, that's why I never pursued that career path.

I do not believe I implied getting an A&P is very simple. If that is what you got from my post perhaps I need to clarify as that was not the intent of my post.

What I was saying is when you do a cost vs benefit analysis (meaning cost of education vs earnings potential) getting an A&P seems like a bargain, a good deal, a smart choice.

As stated the cost for an A&P at Tulsa tech calculated at $16917.40 but A classes and P classes have some redundancy. So in actuality taking both would be somewhat cheaper than $16917.40.

So let's say conservatively the total is 14K. Don't you think 14K for just shy of 100K a year with full benefits is a good deal as opposed to say...... people who get a 4 year degree and don't even end up working in a field that reflects their degree?

I was simply saying looking at it objectively an A&P seems like a good investment with a good rate of return.

Where you got that I thought it was very simple is beyond me.

I realize this post sounded like a broken record but I wanted there to be no mistake on intent this time.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Sorry for my choice of words. meant for "low cost" not "low end" as in quality or shape of outfit.
I'm also not sure if this was just A&P or if he was getting the full package offered. I say just get your A&P at the cheapest cost possible as it's really a lic to learn more.
The place you show looks fantastic and yes very clean indeed.

Thank you I am very proud of what Tulsa has accomplished with this school. The school is a mixture of public/private (public high school students go free, Tulsa Community Work Advance go at reduced cost or free, and private students either get a grant or pay tuition). Tax money very well spent in my opinion. This is how tax money should be spent, giving people opportunities to improve their lives and become independent.

I am sure American Airlines has hired their fair share of students from the school. I know my supervisor went there to get her A&P.

 

[Hackman]

I do not believe I implied getting an A&P is very simple. If that is what you got from my post perhaps I need to clarify as that was not the intent of my post.

What I was saying is when you do a cost vs benefit analysis (meaning cost of education vs earnings potential) getting an A&P seems like a bargain, a good deal, a smart choice.

As stated the cost for an A&P at Tulsa tech calculated at $16917.40 but A classes and P classes have some redundancy. So in actuality taking both would be somewhat cheaper than $16917.40.

So let's say conservatively the total is 14K. Don't you think 14K for just shy of 100K a year with full benefits is a good deal as opposed to say...... people who get a 4 year degree and don't even end up working in a field that reflects their degree?

I was simply saying looking at it objectively an A&P seems like a good investment with a good rate of return.

Where you got that I thought it was very simple is beyond me.

I realize this post sounded like a broken record but I wanted there to be no mistake on intent this time.

You leave a lot of costs and expenses out of your "cost vs benefit analysis" La Li. You left out the large expense of buying your own tools, which I would estimate at least 10k-20k depending on what you buy, Snap On or MAC especially. A minimal Snap On box alone is 4k and a nice one? 8k to 10k. Tools are a major expense to get into this field as a FNG.

Then you left out the costs of books and other literature you have to buy for your courses, which I would estimate another 3k to 4k. Books were not included when I went to Spartan back in the late 80's. I had about 20k in student loans I had to pay back, of course there are cheaper A@P schools, but the big ones like Embry-Riddle or Spartan are probably 30k plus now. (I didn't check, so I'm guessing) You get what you pay for.

Then you add in the costs of room and board, there is no campus dorm rooms at most of these schools, so if your from out of town like I was, you'll have to get an apartment. Which you have to also pay for, unless mom and dad are footing the bill. I wasn't that lucky, I had to work nights at UPS unloading trucks.

The the biggest reality you left out is where are you supposed to make the 100k paycheck with no experience? Right, your not at any time in the near future. Your either got experience in the military like me, or your working in a 3rd party dump for $10hr as a FNG. American might hire you as a OSM (overhaul support mechanic) at the paltry $8.89hr starting rate, and then 5 years later your raking in a big $22.02. We have guys with 20 years that had to down grade to OSM after AFW closed, so AA new hires can forget about upgrading to a AMT unless you want to live in LA or New Yawk. Most of them leave before 6 months for SWA or Delta anyway. Your also gonna be stuck on midnights, working weekends, and working holidays. AA has no holiday pay either, but hey we only get 5 holidays a year anyway. Then there's there is the spectre of the FAA looking over your shoulder for everything you do, and AA will blame you for any mistakes you make if they can, like they tried to do with the loose 757 seats that made national news.

I won't even go into the "full benefits" ditch, we lost that about 15 years ago in 2003 with record setting concessions that we still have today. The new American manAAgement see's fit not to even bring AA/TWU members up to USukAir/IAM standards, who won the lottery and do enjoy "full benefits" because they got saved by the merger. Good for them.

This used to be a good career choice, but that was before the poor manAAgement decisions like buying TWA and then the attacks of 9/11.

I guess we will see after this week if that will soon improve.... I won't be holding my breath with DUI Doug and his exNorthwest flunkies in control.

So you still think getting your A@P is great deal and a great ROI? Not quite.

 

[B737 driver]

You leave a lot of costs and expenses out of your "cost vs benefit analysis" La Li. You left out the large expense of buying your own tools, which I would estimate at least 10k-20k depending on what you buy, Snap On or MAC especially. A minimal Snap On box alone is 4k and a nice one? 8k to 10k. Tools are a major expense to get into this field as a FNG.

Then you left out the costs of books and other literature you have to buy for your courses, which I would estimate another 3k to 4k. Books were not included when I went to Spartan back in the late 80's. I had about 20k in student loans I had to pay back, of course there are cheaper A@P schools, but the big ones like Embry-Riddle or Spartan are probably 30k plus now. (I didn't check, so I'm guessing) You get what you pay for.

Then you add in the costs of room and board, there is no campus dorm rooms at most of these schools, so if your from out of town like I was, you'll have to get an apartment. Which you have to also pay for, unless mom and dad are footing the bill. I wasn't that lucky, I had to work nights at UPS unloading trucks.

The the biggest reality you left out is where are you supposed to make the 100k paycheck with no experience? Right, your not at any time in the near future. Your either got experience in the military like me, or your working in a 3rd party dump for $10hr as a FNG. American might hire you as a OSM (overhaul support mechanic) at the paltry $8.89hr starting rate, and then 5 years later your raking in a big $22.02. We have guys with 20 years that had to down grade to OSM after AFW closed, so AA new hires can forget about upgrading to a AMT unless you want to live in LA or New Yawk. Most of them leave before 6 months for SWA or Delta anyway. Your also gonna be stuck on midnights, working weekends, and working holidays. AA has no holiday pay either, but hey we only get 5 holidays a year anyway. Then there's there is the spectre of the FAA looking over your shoulder for everything you do, and AA will blame you for any mistakes you make if they can.

I won't even go into the "full benefits" ditch, we lost that about 15 years ago in 2003 with record setting concessions that we still have today. The new American manAAgement see's fit not to even bring AA/TWU members up to USukAir/IAM standards, who won the lottery and do enjoy "full benefits" because they got saved by the merger. Good for them.

This used to be a good career choice, but that was before the poor manAAgement decisions like buying TWA and then the attacks of 9/11.

I guess we will see after this week if that will soon improve.... I won't be holding my breath with DUI Doug and his exNorthwest flunkies in control.

So you still think getting your A@P is great deal? Not quite.

Yes there are cost, but with an A&P military will take you in as an E 3, you can do a military career retire with 20, then if you get out E8 or higher, an Airline like Delta would pick you up as a maintenance supervisor , especially with heavy jet experience. Or with your A&P with a minor in computers or robotics, you don't even need to work on aircraft if you don't want too, several companies would gladly hire you. You have to be smart and pick the best career path.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

You leave a lot of costs and expenses out of your "cost vs benefit analysis" La Li. You left out the large expense of buying your own tools, which I would estimate at least 10k-20k depending on what you buy, Snap On or MAC especially. A minimal Snap On box alone is 4k and a nice one? 8k to 10k. Tools are a major expense to get into this field as a FNG.

Yeah if your stupid about it maybe. I had a buddy try to sell some tools to a pawn shop and they refused to buy them. They told him they had too much stock already. They could not even sell what they had. They were practically giving them away just to get them out of their store. You can snatch toolboxes up all day long on Craigslist and eBay for a LOT less than 4K. I saw a couple of really nice ones (roll around of course) go for about 1K. The trick is you buy second hand until you get established then start getting the "good" stuff.

When I worked as an electrician long ago I did not necessarily have all the tools I needed. I had people help me out a bit until I could acquire what I needed. Don't you guys do that for up and coming mechanics? If not why not? Don't you want to help a fellow UNION brother?

Then you left out the costs of books and other literature you have to buy for your courses, which I would estimate another 3k to 4k. Books were not included when I went to Spartan back in the late 80's. I had about 20k in student loans I had to pay back, of course there are cheaper A@P schools, but the big ones like Embry-Riddle or Spartan are probably 30k plus now. (I didn't check, so I'm guessing) You get what you pay for.

I did NOT leave those costs out. They were included in the in the total I gave. If you look at their website they have those items listed under Additional Required Costs:

$2906.90** for A
$2810.50** for P

So a total of 5717.40 of Additional Required Costs.

Then you add in the costs of room and board, there is no campus dorm rooms at most of these schools, so if your from out of town like I was, you'll have to get an apartment. Which you have to also pay for, unless mom and dad are footing the bill. I wasn't that lucky, I had to work nights at UPS unloading trucks.

So? You are going to have housing costs no matter what when you leave the nest. That is part of being an adult.

The the biggest reality you left out is where are you supposed to make the 100k paycheck with no experience? Right, your not at any time in the near future. Your either got experience in the military like me, or your working in a 3rd party dump for $10hr as a FNG. American might hire you as a OSM (overhaul support mechanic) at the paltry $8.89hr starting rate, and then 5 years later your raking in a big $22.02. We have guys with 20 years that had to down grade to OSM after AFW closed, so AA new hires can forget about upgrading to a AMT unless you want to live in LA or New Yawk. Most of them leave before 6 months for SWA or Delta anyway. Your also gonna be stuck on midnights, working weekends, and working holidays. AA has no holiday pay either, but hey we only get 5 holidays a year anyway. Then there's there is the spectre of the FAA looking over your shoulder for everything you do, and AA will blame you for any mistakes you make if they can, like they tried to do with the loose 757 seats that made national news.

Need I remind you I was talking about earning "potential". Nobody expects someone to make 100K right out of the gate. As far as the shift work why would I even bring that up. We all know airline workers work odd hours. Do I really have to say that? That being said pay even with a 4 year degree and no experience can be low. It's called working your way up. A degree does not mean you can actually do the job you got the degree for. It just means you can pass tests.

I won't even go into the "full benefits" ditch, we lost that about 15 years ago in 2003 with record setting concessions that we still have today. The new American manAAgement see's fit not to even bring AA/TWU members up to USukAir/IAM standards, who won the lottery and do enjoy "full benefits" because they got saved by the merger. Good for them.

I worked for AA in 2003 as well. I remember the concessions. That being said American Airlines is not the center of the universe. There are plenty of other good paying A&P jobs out there for future A&P mechanics.

This used to be a good career choice, but that was before the poor manAAgement decisions like buying TWA and then the attacks of 9/11.

Oh spare me. You guys make more than most of the college graduates I know. I will say it again, American Airlines is not the center of the universe. Having an A&P simply makes American Airlines an option not a destination. I still think A&P can be a good career choice.

I guess we will see after this week if that will soon improve.... I won't be holding my breath with DUI Doug and his exNorthwest flunkies in control.

So you still think getting your A@P is great deal and a great ROI? Not quite.

Yes.

I do think it has a great ROI. Nothing you have said makes me feel any differently about it than I did before your post.

I would also like to point out you seem to be taking some liberties crediting me with things I never said (as well as Vortilon). For instance I never said 100K with no experience. That exist only in your mind.

To put it another way, don't put words in my mouth.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

You have to be smart and pick the best career path.

That really is the key isn't it?

That is why I shake my head when I see some kid waste his parents money or go into debt going after a liberal arts degree there is literally no market for. These kids today don't even bother to research if there is a demand for what they are studying. They are told to just find something that interest them and do that. Of course colleges are all too ready to collect tuition despite the worthless degrees they are peddling.

Colleges project the illusion of selling you a future but in fact what they are selling you is what you want to hear.

 

[Matt1200]

I appreciate giving the advice to the people interested in becoming an A&P, but can we get back to the question at hand. I feel that the international that is sitting at our negotiating table are not giving us all the information. We elect these individuals to get us the best contract. It is time to tell the association to get this done. Stay at the table until it is. No more breaks!!!!

 

[Timid Weak Union]

I rarely come here to read the mechanics post due to this retard.....la...la...la...

 

[bigjets]

The rumor grapevine says AA offering

1200 less mechanics
5 weeks vacation
No double time.
8 holidays
8 sick days.

Anybody with authority saying this?

This isn’t very positive and I can’t believe this is remotely true, even though this would be an improvement over LAA current contract it would mean the LUS would be taking concessions.