According to Mr. Horton we're doing better then ever.

[Duke787]

According to Mr. Horton we're doing better then ever, but yet in this new agreement we get less profit sharing 15% down to 5%. Doesn't really feel like the "American Team", imagine how bitter we are going to be when AA comes out of BK with the executives getting another round of bonus's, and we are stuck with another 6 year contract.

I'm not sure what's worse, AA looking for concessions every 9 years, or the TWU offering up concessions, then telling us that it's up to Delta (non-union) and United if we come up to an average of industry standards, all the while it's our union sabotaging the efforts of those mechanics to get a raise, by doing nothing other then losing the pension, retiree medical, and losing another week of vacation, and what did we give up so we can open up contract talks in 4 years, because AA never delays contract talks.

I do not feel like I'm getting too much bang for my buck/union dues. It seems like all AA has to do is to say we are going to layoff and the TWU buckles, and offers concessions to save jobs. If AA has to downsize to make it a stronger airline, let it downsize, and let the employees come back to a stronger leaner company.

la·bor un·ion

1. workers' organization: an organization of wage earners that is set up to serve and advance its members' interests in terms of wages, benefits, and working hours and conditions

When Delta took the pay cuts in 2005 ( I think ) how long did it take for them to get back on top?

 

[Frank Szabo]

What you and others aren't seeing is the "Big Picture", as seen by our CPA in Chief.

Horton and minions don't care what happens to the company after they extract their "20 pieces of silver reward" for "leading" the company through its "dark days". They can then leave and never be heard from again because "Brother, they have theirs" - and leave Dougie over at US (and a few other airlines in search of bargains) to play with the pieces - and the employees' heads.

 

[TWU informer]

Not sure about who "we're" he is referencing but I just checked my pay statement to be sure and I am not doing "better than ever".

"we"re" must not include the mechanic and related at AA? But no doubt someone is doing better.

 

[olderguyAMT]

According to Mr. Horton we're doing better then ever, but yet in this new agreement we get less profit sharing 15% down to 5%. Doesn't really feel like the "American Team", imagine how bitter we are going to be when AA comes out of BK with the executives getting another round of bonus's, and we are stuck with another 6 year contract.

I'm not sure what's worse, AA looking for concessions every 9 years, or the TWU offering up concessions, then telling us that it's up to Delta (non-union) and United if we come up to an average of industry standards, all the while it's our union sabotaging the efforts of those mechanics to get a raise, by doing nothing other then losing the pension, retiree medical, and losing another week of vacation, and what did we give up so we can open up contract talks in 4 years, because AA never delays contract talks.

I do not feel like I'm getting too much bang for my buck/union dues. It seems like all AA has to do is to say we are going to layoff and the TWU buckles, and offers concessions to save jobs. If AA has to downsize to make it a stronger airline, let it downsize, and let the employees come back to a stronger leaner company.

la·bor un·ion

workers' organization: an organization of wage earners that is set up to serve and advance its members' interests in terms of wages, benefits, and working hours and conditions

If Horton hates maintenance, well then, he hates us,our families, and our profession. He must also hate the union for representing maint. employees. Does he despise the AMT?

Does he need to watch that movie clip called The Value of Respect? Is there a plane made that can fix itself? If we don't do the work, who will????????

and, will we ever know the truth about outsourcing total costs? Probably not, I think. I hear the trend is going more toward inscourcing. He must know about that, right?

Does he despise the aircraft mech in EL Salvador? It's really just all about money and the global economy thing, right?

Is it time to watch a rerun of Dennis on youtube?

Does that hate have anything to do with the hammering we're getting? The BK is not the fault of maintenance, but we have to pay dearly for the mistakes of others.

 

[FWAAA]

I doubt that Horton hates any AA employee and I doubt that he hates mechanics or maintenance and repair. He does not have the soft spot for insourced overhaul that Arpey displayed, but deciding to outsource a percentage of heavy overhaul (just like WN, UA, US and DL) doesn't mean he hates anyone. In 2003, the TWU made the mistake of trading pay for jobs, and where did that get you? Last in pay, that's where. There isn't a single large airline in the US that insources all of its heavy maintenance and none of them are hiring thousands of A&Ps so that they can insource all their heavy overhaul.

Now, AA is going to outsource more maintenance than previously, and IMO, you guys need to focus on pay, not how many jobs will be outsourced. As Bob Owens has said, domestic MROs and international MROs don't have the capacity to absorb all of AA's heavy maintenance (AA is still about the third largest airline in the world) immediately, so it's not like AA could outsource 75% or even 50% of its heavy overhaul tomorrow even if it wanted to. I don't agree with Owens about very many things, but he's probably right on the money on this one.

Some heavy overhaul jobs will disappear from AA, either because you vote to approve the LBO or because the judge abrogates your agreement or because AA ceases operations. Two of those choices involve a certain percentage of outsourcing (and some job losses) and the last choice involves 100% outsourcing and 100% job loss. Even the holy grail (for some of you) of a merger with US means 50% outsourcing as that's how much maintenance spend is outsourced at US, according to 700UW. Anybody think Parker will insource a higher percentage of that if he takes over AA?

Yes, Arpey said that the jury was still out on whether outsourced maintenance was cheaper than AA's arrangement. What did anyone expect him to say? Every one of his competitors outsourced maintenance during their bankruptcies a decade ago. No doubt his bosses (the board of directors) asked him about it. He was the only airline CEO keeping all overhaul inhouse.

In the unlikely event that outsourced maintenance really is more expensive (hard to fathom, given the slave wages earned in El Salvador and China), that's management's mistake to make - if they're wrong, and outsourcing is really more expensive, then your wage rates will explode as AA and every other airline realizes that and moves overhaul back inside.

To insource more heavy overhaul, UA, DL, WN, UPS, FedEx and the rest would have to hire tens of thousands of personnel, pushing wages into the stratosphere (that's what happens when demand outstrips supply). Owens has posted that very few new A&Ps have been minted in recent years, so there isn't much supply as many AMTs left the industry to fix things in more stable and profitable industries (for higher pay and benefits, which are easy when you work for profitable employers).

About the trade of profit sharing for slightly better pay and benefits - accepting that would be the most stupid, brain dead move ever. AA's unions failed miserably in 2003 to secure adequate upside gain-sharing, and a 5% profit sharing percentage is insulting, given the much higher percentages at UA and DL. One thing your incompetent negotiators are good at doing is making the same mistakes over and over again. If my union accepted 5% profit sharing instead of the prior offer of 15%, I'd call for their heads. IMO, 15% is miserly. In exchange for significant labor cost reductions, employees should get 20% first dollar profit sharing.

 

[signals]

Damn weasel words. The WE means AA as a whole not necessarily the work force.

 

[topDawg]

According to Mr. Horton we're doing better then ever, but yet in this new agreement we get less profit sharing 15% down to 5%. Doesn't really feel like the "American Team", imagine how bitter we are going to be when AA comes out of BK with the executives getting another round of bonus's, and we are stuck with another 6 year contract.

I'm not sure what's worse, AA looking for concessions every 9 years, or the TWU offering up concessions, then telling us that it's up to Delta (non-union) and United if we come up to an average of industry standards, all the while it's our union sabotaging the efforts of those mechanics to get a raise, by doing nothing other then losing the pension, retiree medical, and losing another week of vacation, and what did we give up so we can open up contract talks in 4 years, because AA never delays contract talks.

I do not feel like I'm getting too much bang for my buck/union dues. It seems like all AA has to do is to say we are going to layoff and the TWU buckles, and offers concessions to save jobs. If AA has to downsize to make it a stronger airline, let it downsize, and let the employees come back to a stronger leaner company.

la·bor un·ion

1. workers' organization: an organization of wage earners that is set up to serve and advance its members' interests in terms of wages, benefits, and working hours and conditions

When Delta took the pay cuts in 2005 ( I think ) how long did it take for them to get back on top?

Depends on what on top is.
for pay it didn't take long, but for *other* benefits Delta is still very much behind.

United's pay and benefits is what I would like to see. (and American's current SCOPE)

 

[topDawg]

I doubt that Horton hates any AA employee and I doubt that he hates mechanics or maintenance and repair. He does not have the soft spot for insourced overhaul that Arpey displayed, but deciding to outsource a percentage of heavy overhaul (just like WN, UA, US and DL) doesn't mean he hates anyone. In 2003, the TWU made the mistake of trading pay for jobs, and where did that get you? Last in pay, that's where. There isn't a single large airline in the US that insources all of its heavy maintenance and none of them are hiring thousands of A&Ps so that they can insource all their heavy overhaul.

Now, AA is going to outsource more maintenance than previously, and IMO, you guys need to focus on pay, not how many jobs will be outsourced. As Bob Owens has said, domestic MROs and international MROs don't have the capacity to absorb all of AA's heavy maintenance (AA is still about the third largest airline in the world) immediately, so it's not like AA could outsource 75% or even 50% of its heavy overhaul tomorrow even if it wanted to. I don't agree with Owens about very many things, but he's probably right on the money on this one.

Some heavy overhaul jobs will disappear from AA, either because you vote to approve the LBO or because the judge abrogates your agreement or because AA ceases operations. Two of those choices involve a certain percentage of outsourcing (and some job losses) and the last choice involves 100% outsourcing and 100% job loss. Even the holy grail (for some of you) of a merger with US means 50% outsourcing as that's how much maintenance spend is outsourced at US, according to 700UW. Anybody think Parker will insource a higher percentage of that if he takes over AA?

Yes, Arpey said that the jury was still out on whether outsourced maintenance was cheaper than AA's arrangement. What did anyone expect him to say? Every one of his competitors outsourced maintenance during their bankruptcies a decade ago. No doubt his bosses (the board of directors) asked him about it. He was the only airline CEO keeping all overhaul inhouse.

In the unlikely event that outsourced maintenance really is more expensive (hard to fathom, given the slave wages earned in El Salvador and China), that's management's mistake to make - if they're wrong, and outsourcing is really more expensive, then your wage rates will explode as AA and every other airline realizes that and moves overhaul back inside.

To insource more heavy overhaul, UA, DL, WN, UPS, FedEx and the rest would have to hire tens of thousands of personnel, pushing wages into the stratosphere (that's what happens when demand outstrips supply). Owens has posted that very few new A&Ps have been minted in recent years, so there isn't much supply as many AMTs left the industry to fix things in more stable and profitable industries (for higher pay and benefits, which are easy when you work for profitable employers).

About the trade of profit sharing for slightly better pay and benefits - accepting that would be the most stupid, brain dead move ever. AA's unions failed miserably in 2003 to secure adequate upside gain-sharing, and a 5% profit sharing percentage is insulting, given the much higher percentages at UA and DL. One thing your incompetent negotiators are good at doing is making the same mistakes over and over again. If my union accepted 5% profit sharing instead of the prior offer of 15%, I'd call for their heads. IMO, 15% is miserly. In exchange for significant labor cost reductions, employees should get 20% first dollar profit sharing.

Not sure about United, but for Delta to bring back HMVs on the DAL-S fleet it would take ~2,000 people.

Now, with the DAL-N fleet it would likely be in the 6,000 number, but that has more to do with the fact that they only had like 1,000 people during the merger. Delta has hired about 2,000 post merger just to bring in work they sent out that Delta does in-house. The problem Delta has is space. (though, they are building a nice pretty hangar in Mexico. smh)

 

[Bob Owens]

According to Mr. Horton we're doing better then ever, but yet in this new agreement we get less profit sharing 15% down to 5%.

Well if they are designing a plan that they actually expect to pay out from I would expect nothing less from managment.

Doesn't really feel like the "American Team", imagine how bitter we are going to be when AA comes out of BK with the executives getting another round of bonus's, and we are stuck with another 6 year contract.

They only care if that bitterness turns into delays and cancellations.

When Delta took the pay cuts in 2005 ( I think ) how long did it take for them to get back on top?

Delta is not on top, far from it, but those Non-union workers are around $13,000/year ahead of us, then throw in the $600 after tax (so around $1000 gross) for dues and that pushes it up to $14k. I have to agree we arent getting much for our dues , especially if we vote this in. If anything you are losing a lot of money. VOTE NO, get your moneys worth from your dues, force the International to fight for you.

 

[amt66]

Bob don't worry if this thing is passed delays and cancellations will definitely increase and the profit sharing % will be meaningless! Vote no for a better offer. With any luck soon the line will get the increase we deserve

 

[Bob Owens]

I doubt that Horton hates any AA employee and I doubt that he hates mechanics or maintenance and repair. He does not have the soft spot for insourced overhaul that Arpey displayed, but deciding to outsource a percentage of heavy overhaul (just like WN, UA, US and DL) doesn't mean he hates anyone. In 2003, the TWU made the mistake of trading pay for jobs, and where did that get you? Last in pay, that's where. There isn't a single large airline in the US that insources all of its heavy maintenance and none of them are hiring thousands of A&Ps so that they can insource all their heavy overhaul.

You're right, none including AA insource all their heavy OH. While none are hiring thousands many are hiring so thousands of jobs are out there, AAR alone is looking for 600. As for AA and the RIF we shall see, over the last three years I've seen several layoffs announced but none of them materialized and headcount went up, not down. The number planned has already dropped by several hundred, and with many who are ready to retire holding out for a buyout we may not seee anyone hit the street, even though the headcount will liklely decline. The thing is not too many qualified people are showing up for the vacancies that exist. 20 years of declining certification is starting to take its toll. The industry has become dependant on OT, thats why the FAA dropped its push to combat fatigue through revised Duty time limits with aircraft maintenance.

Where the hatred becomes evident and indisputable is in the non-monetary concessions the company is demanding and the humiliation of an LOA where in return for making us the worst paid in the industry we have to committ to making AA "best in class". The fact that they are going after stuff that not only no other carrier went after but that they didnt even take from any other work group is a c. one example is the sick time, we proved to them that after they imposed the first two at half pay penalty sick time usage increased, and increased more than the groups that did not have the penalty, that it actually costs them at least $7 million more than paying us 100% like everyone else yet they kept the day and charged us $5 million for the one half day they unilaterally decided to put back in.

Some heavy overhaul jobs will disappear from AA, either because you vote to approve the LBO or because the judge abrogates your agreement or because AA ceases operations.

Please, the odds of that are about the same for us as anyone else.

Yes, Arpey said that the jury was still out on whether outsourced maintenance was cheaper than AA's arrangement. What did anyone expect him to say? Every one of his competitors outsourced maintenance during their bankruptcies a decade ago. No doubt his bosses (the board of directors) asked him about it. He was the only airline CEO keeping all overhaul inhouse.

That doesnt explain why AA added over 500 mechanics and insourced work ovr the last ten years that they could have outsourced.

In the unlikely event that outsourced maintenance really is more expensive (hard to fathom, given the slave wages earned in El Salvador and China), that's management's mistake to make - if they're wrong, and outsourcing is really more expensive, then your wage rates will explode as AA and every other airline realizes that and moves overhaul back inside.

Well sometimes getting something done twice in order to get it done right ends up making a bargain not such a good deal. Jet Blue probaly has the youngest workforce out there yet they top out higher than most, $40/hr, second only to Southwest among Passenger Airlines. These are just some of the reasons we must not agree to get tied down with a six year deal, even if it means we have to deal with abrogation.

To insource more heavy overhaul, UA, DL, WN, UPS, FedEx and the rest would have to hire tens of thousands of personnel, pushing wages into the stratosphere (that's what happens when demand outstrips supply). Owens has posted that very few new A&Ps have been minted in recent years, so there isn't much supply as many AMTs left the industry to fix things in more stable and profitable industries (for higher pay and benefits, which are easy when you work for profitable employers).

If wages werent regulated in the airline industry that would be true, but they are, wages are prevented from going up by the NMB which denies releasing Union workers and holding them in a state of endless negotiations while Non Union outfits like FED-EX, Jet Blue and Delta raise their rates to meet demand. Over the long term, as older workers simply leave and they cant force those who remain to work even more OT then wages may be forced up past the blockage put in place by the NMB. Clearly the objective of the NMB is to eradicate Unions by making belonging to one onerous, thanks to their delays and the less than assertive position of the TWU we make around $20,000 a year less than we would similarly situated at non-union Jet Blue.

About the trade of profit sharing for slightly better pay and benefits - accepting that would be the most stupid, brain dead move ever. AA's unions failed miserably in 2003 to secure adequate upside gain-sharing, and a 5% profit sharing percentage is insulting, given the much higher percentages at UA and DL.

Agreed.

One thing your incompetent negotiators are good at doing is making the same mistakes over and over again.

Agreed, but those in favor of bringing it back hope that the members will do the same by voting YES. Often these guys have International aspirations so they wont have to live under it.

If my union accepted 5% profit sharing instead of the prior offer of 15%, I'd call for their heads. IMO, 15% is miserly. In exchange for significant labor cost reductions, employees should get 20% first dollar profit sharing.

Agreed.

 

[1AA]

Horton thinks we are doing better?
Obama says the private sector is doing better.

Two individuals that are out of touch with reality.

 

[FWAAA]

According to Mr. Horton we're doing better then ever . . .

Here's what Horton actually said:

Special Jetwire
WEDNESDAY, JULY 18, 2012
A Message from Chairman and CEO Tom Horton

Dear American Team:

Today, we reported significantly improved financial results for the second quarter of 2012. This improvement is further demonstration that we are, thanks to all of you, well on our way toward building the new American. Here are some of the highlights:
– $6.5 billion in quarterly revenue, the highest in company history and a 5.5 percent increase over last year
– 9.1 percent increase in consolidated unit revenue, with increases across all five of our hubs and all international entities
– $95 million profit before reorganization and special items, our first second-quarter profit in five years and a $381 million improvement over the same period last year
– All-time-high consolidated load factor of 84.5 percent
– Ended quarter with approximately $5.8 billion in cash and short-term investments
This performance, including our industry-leading revenue gains, reflects the strength of our network and alliance strategy, and the great job our team is doing for our customers. Yet, as positive as this improvement is, we have much more work ahead to build on our momentum and return American to a place of leadership, profitability and growth.

Over the last few weeks, we have reached several key milestones, including our tentative agreements with the APA and our mechanics and stores groups in the TWU. We’ve also made our comprehensive and final offer to the APFA to reach an agreement, and the union said in a communication to our flight attendants that it is evaluating next steps. I believe these agreements will prove to be an important turning point in our mission to restore American to industry leadership.

We are also getting ready to take a huge leap forward with respect to our products and services. Later this year, we will become the first and only U.S. airline to fly the Boeing 777-300ER, which will showcase a number of special features, including: fully lie-flat First and Business Class seating, with direct aisle access from every seat; specially designed Main Cabin Extra seating with more legroom and comfort; and international Wi-Fi and in-seat entertainment throughout all cabins. In addition, we recently unveiled our plans to upgrade our international widebody fleet of Boeing 777-200s and 767-300s, which will also offer industry-leading interiors and amenities as well as fully lie-flat Business Class seats with universal aisle access. And next year we will take delivery of dozens of new aircraft as we build the most modern, efficient fleet in the industry.

The results we announced today show that the new American is gaining altitude, and I hope you’re as excited as I am to be a part of it. Thank you again for all that you are doing, every day, to put us back on top.

Sincerely,
Tom

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/07/hortons-message-to-troops-about-q2-2012-earnings.html/
Nowhere in the letter do the words "we're doing better than ever" appear.

 

[AA89]

Am I the only one that reads this letter and sees Horton and his team laughing at the employees as he writes it?

Team?
Sincerely, Tom?

Give me a break.

It would be more appropriate to say that Horton is about to be doing "better than ever" if his plan is sucessful...

 

[Buck]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtTP72zW2uc