We're screwd

[eolesen]

Interesting that the leaflet doesn't list "pilots"....

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

Interesting that the leaflet doesn't list "pilots"....

The ALPA is listed at the bottom as a collaborator with airline management and the "all unions" target is alluding to the "pilot's" and everyone else.

 

[Bob Owens]

So now we're comparing the right to strike as being on par with fascism, slavery and genocide?

Sure, Unions were one of the Facsists first targets.

This type of crap is why the unionista rallying cry rings so hollow with more and more people, Bob. That's a laughable comparison. If you'd have said prohibition, perhaps it would be a little more reasonable.

"Most free countries dont have such broad prohibitions against the rights of workers." What did you read?

You mean they expected preferential treatment?... So did the Teamsters (who also backed Reagan). They still wound up in the DOJ's crosshairs.

No they expected reasonable "negotiations". They expected what Reagan had promised.

Had PATCO remained on the job, Reagan could have continued to be an ally. By walking off the job and violating the "no strike no lockout" law, PATCO backed Reagan into a corner from which there was only one legal way out, which was upholding the law first and foremost.

Wrong, Reagan chose to exercise the most severe act permitted by law. He could have helped broker a deal as when the Postal Workers-who fall under the same "no strike" provision-went on strike in the late 60s.

I find it funny the lengths you will go to at times to justify unethical behavior like sick abuse.

Only allowing five days off a year is inhumane.

Since you defended attempted and thwarted theft by your co-workers at LGA, I'm not at all surprised you would be advocating illegal behavior.

I defended theft? First of all there was no theft. They completed their assignments and remained where they could be given another assignment if management wanted. They were in a location that was known to all and had been known to all since the 1940s. Everyone, including corporate security, knew where they were. Instead of sitting upright at 4am, night after night, they were horizontal, all the company had to do was tell them at the begining of the shift to stay in the break room after they completed their assignment and that they were no longer condoning a violation of company rules that they had chosen not to enforce for many, many decades. I never said they didnt have a right to enforce their rules, I said it was wrong for management to terminate first, inform everyone else of the change in enforcement after. Was it a violation of company rules? Sure, but this is a company that will cheer people in the company paper when they violate company rules one day (like when some people parked a waiting aircraft during a lightening storm) and then castigate them in the press when enforcement of their rules causes delays(lightning strikes at JFK).



The fact is that Reagan is universally remembered as being hostile to unions by those who are true unionists. Jim Little had examples throughout history of people who were in power at pivotal moments in our nations history, at his disposal. Little chose the pivotal moments, the question wasnt who was the best candidate in 1980. The examples chosen and the results of their tenure in power say a lot about the persons social beliefs. Those who choose Reagan tend to be anti-labor and welcome the decline of labor and the economic shift of wealth that Reagans policies fostered. A unionist would have cited FDR as the right man for his time, because unions and working people made long lasting gains durings FDR tenure. If he wanted to choose a Republican he could have cited Teddy Roosevelt or Lincoln. But for someone claiming to be a unionist to cite Reagan, perhaps the most hostile anti union President of all time as the right man for America in 1980 is heresy.

 

[777 fixer]

Don't forget the damage Maxine Waters did. When Frank Lorenzo was making his bid to takeover Continental the management along with labor at CAL united in opposition. However at the time Lorenzo owned about half of the company. Their plan was to create more shares and sell them to employees. Unfortunately the State of California's securities regulators said they could only do this with approval of all existing shareholders. Which of course included Lorenzo.

The only hope was for CAL to lobby the California State Legislator to change the rules. Unfortunately Maxine Waters campaigned against it and was instrumental in killing the employee ESOP plan. And the rest is history as the saying goes.

 

[1Conehead]

And where were the airline unions during all this? Working. They didn't honor the PATCO picket lines. If you were an airline employee in 1981 carrying a union card, you are more guilty of union busting than Reagan was. By most unionists definition, crossing a picket line or touching struck work would qualify you as a scab. I don't think there's any question that an aircraft movement during a controllers strike would qualify as struck work...

Don't tell this to NWA employees for some reason they don't understand this concept.
(insert AMFA for PATCO and 200? for 1981)

 

[ual777fan]

Don't forget the damage Maxine Waters did. When Frank Lorenzo was making his bid to takeover Continental the management along with labor at CAL united in opposition. However at the time Lorenzo owned about half of the company. Their plan was to create more shares and sell them to employees. Unfortunately the State of California's securities regulators said they could only do this with approval of all existing shareholders. Which of course included Lorenzo.

The only hope was for CAL to lobby the California State Legislator to change the rules. Unfortunately Maxine Waters campaigned against it and was instrumental in killing the employee ESOP plan. And the rest is history as the saying goes.

If memory serves didn't the then CEO of Continental commit suicide after the ESOP plan failed because he was so distraught by the thought of Frank Lorenzo taking over Bob Six's airline?

 

[777 fixer]

If memory serves didn't the then CEO of Continental commit suicide after the ESOP plan failed because he was so distraught by the thought of Frank Lorenzo taking over Bob Six's airline?

CEO Al Feldman killed himself shortly after. The strain of losing his wife and the fight with Lorenzo was to much in the end.

 

[Bob Owens]

CEO Al Feldman killed himself shortly after. The strain of losing his wife and the fight with Lorenzo was to much in the end.

Was it that or the guilt over having fought for deregulation in the first place?

http://lamkins.tripod.com/Al_FeldmanArt.htm
Al Feldman was part of a small group of high-level executives and professionals who enjoyed adventurous two-week vacations with their families out west each summer, often at a remote and exclusive fishing camp in Idaho. The vacationers were Feldman’s dearest friends. One was Dick Ferris, the president of United, who had grown close to Feldman as they battled jointly in favor of airline deregulation. Another was Travis Reed, an aircraft broker and deal maker who had served as undersecretary of commerce in the Ford administration.

 

[777 fixer]

Was it that or the guilt over having fought for deregulation in the first place?
http://lamkins.tripod.com/Al_FeldmanArt.htm

No. Wonder if Maxine Waters feels guilty?

 

[Bob Owens]

No. Wonder if Maxine Waters feels guilty?

Should she?

One of the problems with allowing corporate America to run the government is that often things are sold as one thing but something else is delivered. Like the war against Iraq to stop Hussain from using or providing weapons of mass destruction for use against us.

Deregulation promised affordable air travel. It was a solution to a problem that didnt exist since under the CAB, airfares had slowly but continually declined as equipement and the industry became more efficient. Everyone won, consumers saw prices decline, more markets were served, and workers saw raises, the only problem was profits were small, but there were profits. Then corporate America became greedy.

It is under these conditions that we see pols who are usually for the working person make mistakes. Under the original deregulation bill workers were provided protection, it was never enforced, so from a Congressperson perspective a bill that would provide affordable air transport and protect workers looks like a win. Perhaps thats why Sens Kennedy, I'm guessing Rep Maxine Waters and others voted for deregultion. The difference is that most of these people admitt it was a mistake.

 

[Hopeful]

Perhaps thats why Sens Kennedy, I'm guessing Rep Maxine Waters and others voted for deregultion. The difference is that most of these people admitt it was a mistake.

Kennedy took the lead for the push to deregulation..

Under the Nixon administration, airfare price collusion was first addressed in 1970.
So you could say Kennedy was on the same page as Nixon regarding deregulation.


But I guess when when republicans supported airline deregulation it was because of corporate greed. But when the democrats supported it, they did it for the benefit of the working man and woman...and "oops" we made some mistakes.."we really meant well"

 

[Bob Owens]

Kennedy took the lead for the push to deregulation..

Under the Nixon administration, airfare price collusion was first addressed in 1970.
So you could say Kennedy was on the same page as Nixon regarding deregulation.


But I guess when when republicans supported airline deregulation it was because of corporate greed. But when the democrats supported it, they did it for the benefit of the working man and woman...and "oops" we made some mistakes.."we really meant well"

Well thats how its sold.

The fact is both parties are owned by corporate America. One is clearly on the side of corporate America and the other pretends to be on the side of working Americans. How we vote determines how far they will go. If we are more concerned about Abortion, gay marriage and prayer in schools then they can boldy take more out of our pockets and restrict our rights and liberties "in the name of freedom" , if we start voting based on economic issues then they will have to give a little back and steal more discretely. Its not a choice between good or bad. Its a choice between bad and worse.

 

[777 fixer]

Should she?

One of the problems with allowing corporate America to run the government is that often things are sold as one thing but something else is delivered. Like the war against Iraq to stop Hussain from using or providing weapons of mass destruction for use against us.

Deregulation promised affordable air travel. It was a solution to a problem that didnt exist since under the CAB, airfares had slowly but continually declined as equipement and the industry became more efficient. Everyone won, consumers saw prices decline, more markets were served, and workers saw raises, the only problem was profits were small, but there were profits. Then corporate America became greedy.

It is under these conditions that we see pols who are usually for the working person make mistakes. Under the original deregulation bill workers were provided protection, it was never enforced, so from a Congressperson perspective a bill that would provide affordable air transport and protect workers looks like a win. Perhaps thats why Sens Kennedy, I'm guessing Rep Maxine Waters and others voted for deregultion. The difference is that most of these people admitt it was a mistake.

Maxine Waters did not vote for airline deregualtion since she was not elected to Congress till 1991. What she did was to help kill the last chance for the employees of Continental to keep Frank Lornezo out.

Deregualtion of the airline industry really isn't a case of corporate America getting greddy and conspiring with one another. There were those in the airline industry that were opposed to it. Remember Bob Crandall's now famous remark to an advcoate of deregualtion "You #$%*# academic eggheads are going to wreck this industry."

The person often called the father of airline deregualtion had never worked for an airline.

< http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/t...fred-kahn_N.htm >

 

[Joe Patroni]

Looking at the congressional record, there was very little opposition to the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978. H.R. 12611 passed on a vote of 356 to 6, and S.2493 passed 84 to 4. It took Congress just a little over 8 months to get this piece of regulation passed and signed by the President.

 

[eolesen]

There might not have been opposition within Congress, but airlines and unions pretty much had a unified front with their opposition. It's probably one of the few times Crandall and labor agreed on something...