AAA ALPA Topic 8/31/07 - 9/06/07

[Junebug172]

USAPA is laser focused and they already have enough votes to call an election. USAPA is seeking more cards so there is no dispute during the card count.


Regards,

USA320Pilot

One of your guys on the National board posted (today) that they are still a few hundred card short.

So which is it?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Oh, there'll be "news at 11" - the question is whether it'll be the news that the East pilots are being led to expect......

Jim

I think there are false expectations on both sides of this issue. If at the end of the day, both sides end up being equally unhappy with the final result; then and only then can one say that it all turned out fair.

 

[Piedmont1984]

One of your guys on the National board posted (today) that they are still a few hundred card short.

So which is it?

USAPA needs %50+1 to trigger a representational election. But the USAPA leadership team wants more than %50+1, they are looking for a reasonable safety margin or buffer.....typical airline pilots.

I am not privy to what specific number they wish to achieve.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If at the end of the day, both sides end up being equally unhappy with the final result; then and only then can one say that it all turned out fair.

At the most rudimentary level, you're right. But that assumes that both sides entered the process with equally unrealistic (or realistic) expections. That doesn't appear to be the case here. It seems that most East pilots would only be "happy" if most of the West pilots were placed at or near the bottom of the list - stapled, if you will - while most West pilots never expected the opposite. Like lots of things in life, expectations play as much a role as "fairness", since "fairness" is colored by one's expectations.

Jim

 

[hp_fa]

Jim's response to this was clearly better then what I will respond with, but I have a few questions...

They are not threatening words, they're fact. I am not a USAPA member, but I know exactly what is going on. I spent 10 hours with their president one-on-one discussing the issue, I see their emails almost every day, and I see the resolve in their eyes.

While they may or may not bet threatening words, they clearly are intended to cause a reaction. So, are the words bluster(Definition), puffing (Definition) or extortion (Definition)? Also, if you are not a member of USAPA, how and why do you have access and internet publication rights to a legal opinion from an attorney that represents the Intrim President of USAPA? How do you rate 10 hours of that persons time when he must have huge demads on his time? Or, if USAPA has been incorporated, are you an incorporator, officer or director of USAPA?

The AWA MEC has defied the ALPA EC twice, not once, but twice and they have rejected the work of the Rice Committee, which is giving USAPA tremendous support. Furthermore, I believe the AWA MEC and the West pilots underestimated the resolve of the East pilots to right what they believe is wrong because ALPA Merger Policy was not followed.

You still haven't answered me as to how the alleged failures of the West MEC to accept resolutions of the Rice Committee rises to the level of the East folks failing to abide by it's signed agreement to abide by a binding arbitration, as well as the terms of the written and signed TA?

Furthermore, USAPA is working within the confines of Labor Law and they have retained a well schooled law firm that is providing legal advice and guidance. USAPA will file the NMB Form 1 and the required IRS paperwork with the government within in the next few weeks or even days. Then ALPA will lose control of the process. That is not a threat, but instead a fact.

Again, how would you know? Also, and this is a minor point, you had earlier said that USAPA would file for a new union on or before 9/1/07. Now you say another couple of weeks. You have said that there are more then enough signatures, yet today there is a report that someone has said USAPA needs a few hundred more cards? What's the truth?

As I indicated earlier, the ball is in the AWA MEC's court. The ALPA EC, the ALPA Rice Committee, Doug Parker, and the US Airways MEC all believe there needs to be discussion and compromise. The only party unwilling to discuss the issue is the AWA MEC, which has caused many, many US Airways pilots to believe they have no other option but USAPA.

Compromise by whom? The East MEC went to a binding arbitration and has refused to accept the result. Until folks in the East seemingly come to their senses and accept Nicolau then West has nothing to discuss. Parties to a negotiation should never negotiate against themselves and East, as it appears, can not be trusted to abide by it's agreements. After all, it signed both a TA and an arbitration agreement consenting to a full and binding arbitration of outstanding issues with West and it fails to abide by what is essentially a signed contract. How do you negotiate with people that seemingly will not live up to their end of the bargain?

Please explan it all to me USA320Pilot.

 

[Piedmont1984]

At the most rudimentary level, you're right. But that assumes that both sides entered the process with equally unrealistic (or realistic) expections. That doesn't appear to be the case here. It seems that most East pilots would only be "happy" if most of the West pilots were placed at or near the bottom of the list - stapled, if you will - while most West pilots never expected the opposite. Like lots of things in life, expectations play as much a role as "fairness", since "fairness" is colored by one's expectations.

Jim

You want my expectations at the start of all this? Here's my formula. Slot all captains one for one. All F/O's get integrated DOH, because that is where the gap begins to grow and gives the older, longer serving F/O's their shot in the left seat before retirement. And finally, give the furloughees some sort of credit. You don't like the word staple well lets not staple those who sacrificed the most, many of whom had more actual time in service than the guys out west they were stapled under. Finally sprinkle in conditions, restrictions, no bump/flush, fences etc.

Now, in one short paragraph I have articulated a simple algorithm for putting two very different pilot groups together. Nicolau took up pages and pages to simply say - slot and staple. He did what was easiest and worded it like a lawyer.

Would my formulation be popular? Probably not, but at least it addresses some of the complexities that exist in two such diverse pilot groups. Nicolau did not even bother.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Without getting into a discussion of the merits of different integration methods, I'll just say it appears that most east pilots had expectations of a different outcome that what you outlined. Thus greater unhappiness with the decision of the person that both sides agreed would define "fair".

Jim

 

[sharktooth]

The USAPA raison d'etre is to violate a legally binding agreement.

The east pilots, as well as a preponderance of ALPA attorneys, do not believe the "agreement" is legal, therefore, the concept of "binding" for that "award" is moot. Captain Praters dithering is only an attempt to minimize eventual lawsuits.

I believe that USAPA wants DOH with conditions and restrictions (fences are an example), as it should have been. This will only protect you later, when you are less able to "compensate" (i.e., less desirable to other employment).

No one from USAPA wants you to lose your relative position. You only stand to gain the combined flying as the chronologically senior pilots "graduate".

Perhaps you would be better served by utilizing your energies in bringing alive a national seniority list?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

How can you guarantee that? The USAPA raison d'etre is to violate a legally binding agreement. They are corrupt from the get-go. USAPA has shown no evidence of supporting the AWA pilots nor do they care about the hundreds of US pilots suffering needlessly under LOA93.

If USAPA was mounting a recall of Stephan, then I might think they are merely anti-ALPA, but they have proven themselves to be an alter-ego of US the US MEC and have targeted the AWA pilot group as their primary advesary.

Please prove me wrong, because if they are doing something productive for ALL the US pilots that I'm unaware of, I'd be happy to hear it.

It's like all things. There are no guarantees. Corrupt? It's your vote. Do with it as you wish.
What's to support? We want ALPA off the property first and foremost. The west will get the same support as all pilots. It's your choice to participate or not. Have you sent your card in yet?
LOA93? We are still organizing. But you can bet the new CBA will put LOA93 behind us.
Suffering? Thats your opinion. I can live under LOA93 for as long as it takes. If Callsign Cactus is correct, I'm due for a pay raise soon from the PBGC. Besides if the Hemenway letter is correct, he says the company has the power to impose LOA93 on the west. Then you can enjoy my suffering. Walk in my shoes and you will see the need to replace ALPA.

Don't want to recall Stephan. He and ALPA National are our best friends. Each new mistake, each new blunder brings in more cards. I just got 2 more today over that idiotic picketing event planned out west. If you're such a great ALPA supporter I am sure you and everyone else out west will join them in a show of unity.
Wonder how the rest of the drive is going? I understand that USAPA reps are preparing a visit to the west soon. Why don't you ask them about the differences from ALPA and the plan we have. Better yet, why wait? The phone contacts are on the website.

No matter what I say as proof it will not be to your liking. Productive? By removing ALPA we are in reality doing something very productive for all pilots. However, in your eyes, how could that be? We're not the bargaining rep. So how do you want us to be productive since we don't represent anyone YET. I thought you already knew that.

Finally, your choice to participate is yours. This is not ALPA and the rules you are accustomed to. It's a new world. Whether you want to join it is up to you. But you will be given every opportunity to do so.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

If USAPA becomes reality, so what!!

It means ALPA is gone. I'll take my victory. After 20 years, it's about time we got rid of an association incapable of representing anyone.

Besides, did you elect Prater? I didn't! My vote didn't. oops What vote?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

One of your guys on the National board posted (today) that they are still a few hundred card short.

So which is it?

It all depends. The furlough list is dynamic. As the list is purged of eligible voters, the percentages actually come down. To answer the question, it's up to the company. That is why USAPA is seeking over and above the required minimums. Since some USAPA supporters are on the furloughed list and will have their card voided in the count. This is being planned for. My guess is the real figure you see posted is the active pilot count. Not the total count including furloughees who might resign or retire.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

What YOU don't understand is USAPA new constitution and by-laws would only apply to any FUTURE union business. For example, USAPA can change seniority integration to DOH, but it will do nothing to resolve our current situation since you can't undo what has already been done no matter how many times you click your heels. You are doing more harm to your fellow pilots than Nic ever will by claiming USAPA can overturn the award...it is very sad to see such reckless behavior that will eventually lead to self-destruction and financial ruin.

Cactus,

USA320Pilot comments: It is my understanding that if USAPA gains control of the US Airways and AWA pilots then a new constitution and by-laws would be created. This would include a new merger and fragmentation policy.

According to USAPA’s attorney Lee Seham USAPA would be free to implement a DOH seniority list. USAPA has already created a seniority integration plan that would prevent a DFR lawsuit and its attorney’s know exactly how to implement this process. As far as “consensual approaches†at this point I do not think USAPA or many East pilots care about that.

Going forward if USAPA becomes the bargaining agent the East pilots would be in the “majority†and the West pilots would be in the “minorityâ€; therefore, the vast majority of the East pilots do not care about the West pilots threat to “be prepared to suffer the consequences.â€

Again, the ball is in the AWA MEC’s court with probably less than a month to keep ALPA on the property and negotiate a settlement with fences, DOH furlough, base, and future merger protections all embodied in a joint contract or the card count will likely occur.

Piedmont1984 is very bright and astute. I do hope there is a “realistic solution†to the problem and ALPA prevails, but as Piedmont1984 indicated “time has already run out, news at 11.â€

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Nothing personal sharktooth, but I have to tell you have my in-laws ROTFLAO (they are all attorneys). We have our Labor Day get together the day before and I called my father and 2 brother in-laws over to read this and they are still laughing 10 minutes later. I asked them what's so funny and they proceeded to tell me a bunch of "weekend lawyer" horror stories that all related to the word "preponderance." Long story short, according to my experts your story is a fairy tell. Federal Arbitration is never moot. They suggest you visit Disney to get your fantasy fix.

The east pilots, as well as a preponderance of ALPA attorneys, do not believe the "agreement" is legal, therefore, the concept of "binding" for that "award" is moot. Captain Praters dithering is only an attempt to minimize eventual lawsuits.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

...it is very sad to see such reckless behavior that will eventually lead to self-destruction and financial ruin.

It's not reckless to want a better future. We see more of the same under ALPA and Prater.

What I do care about most and many of the east USAPA supporters care about, is seeing ALPA removed from the property. The same as the supporters from the west. It's no secret that many of us have become disenfranchised with an association that answers to many masters. One that is more concerned with itself, than the pilots it's supposed to represent.

I am of the opinion that the framework of ALPA under a failed Constitution and ByLaws only reinforces the need for us to form a UNION representing all USAirways pilots.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Actually, under different times/circumstances you would have my support. The only problem I have is people like USA320 misleading east pilots by suggesting USAPA can undo the Nic award. If you have any attorney that gives you better than 1,000,000:1 odds for overturning they are lying to you. ALPA is trash to me because of what they have done over the last 4 months. I would love an in-house Union, but I will not support a fascist organization like USAPA whose only agenda is to phuck over the AWA pilots, or at least try.

It means ALPA is gone. I'll take my victory. After 20 years, it's about time we got rid of an association incapable of representing anyone.

Besides, did you elect Prater? I didn't! My vote didn't. oops What vote?