AAA ALPA Topic 8/31/07 - 9/06/07

[USA320Pilot]

Cactus,

Cactus said: "What YOU don't understand is USAPA new constitution and by-laws would only apply to any FUTURE union business. For example, USAPA can change seniority integration to DOH, but it will do nothing to resolve our current situation since you can't undo what has already been done no matter how many times you click your heels."

USA320Pilot responds: According to USAPA's President and Lee Seham USAPA can prevent the Nicolau Award from being implemented. Furthermore, with ALPA no longer on the property and John Prater indicating the EC will not forward the list, who is going to enforce the Nicolau Award with USAPA the new union? Even if the EC forwarded the list, which Prater indicated they would not do, there could not be an implementation of the award because the East pilots will not agree to a joint contract unless the seniority integration changes.

Even Doug Parker understands that because in his recent letter to all East and West pilots he said, "I have talked to enough US Airways pilots to know that such a proposal would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to get ratified."

Furthermore, AAA73Pilot is right -- the East pilots are not entitled to PHX/LAS pre-merger flying and they have no interest in your "seats". The East pilots only want to keep their pre-merger flying and keep their attrition based career expectation advancement.

Finally, I also believe Parker's comment that he "happens to believe that if we could get everyone together at the negotiating table, we could work something out that meets everyone’s needs – though both sides would need to move some from their increasingly hardening positions."

Cactus, it is my hope the AWA MEC changes their position because the "window of opportunity" to reach a "realistic solution" per the Rice Committee is closing. In my opinion, it would be unwise for you and the AWA MEC to continue to under estimate the resolve of the US Airways pilots, the US Airways MEC, and USAPA.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

P.S. I suggest you contact USAPA and/or their law firm if you have specific questions on the process, with the increasing likelihood they will be your new union before the end of the year.

P.S.S. USAPA has no intention to "phuck over" the West pilots. USAPA's goal is to enter into another seniority list integration per the new merger policy, create a DOH list with fences, conditions, restrictions and other protections; as well as shared growth (for example the EMB-190 and the A340), which would enable the West pilots to maintain their seats and pre-merger career expectations.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Actually, under different times/circumstances you would have my support. The only problem I have is people like USA320 misleading east pilots by suggesting USAPA can undo the Nic award. If you have any attorney that gives you better than 1,000,000:1 odds for overturning they are lying to you. ALPA is trash to me because of what they have done over the last 4 months. I would love an in-house Union, but I will not support a fascist organization like USAPA whose only agenda is to phuck over the AWA pilots, or at least try.

Your problem is even giving credence to what USA320 says. Some things good, some things bad. He is playing both sides against his middle. Trying to set himself up as some kind of good guy. So whoever wins, in his mind he will carry some weight with the victor.

Those of us who are USAPA supporters have been waiting years for this. It took this event, this moment in history to bring about the demise of ALPA on this property. I personally wish it wasn't over the current mess. But as I have said, these are the cards as they are dealt.

USAPA framework is not designed to screw over anybody. Your vote will count. Unlike here under ALPA. When a select few individuals think they know what is best for all pilots, then we all lose. Participative oversight and voting is how you correct all the past ills with our current association.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Actually, under different times/circumstances you would have my support. The only problem I have is people like USA320 misleading east pilots by suggesting USAPA can undo the Nic award. If you have any attorney that gives you better than 1,000,000:1 odds for overturning they are lying to you. ALPA is trash to me because of what they have done over the last 4 months. I would love an in-house Union, but I will not support a fascist organization like USAPA whose only agenda is to phuck over the AWA pilots, or at least try.

Whoa now, that is not what USAPA is trying to do. The St. Nic award was simply the last straw. Ask a recent retiree if he gives a s#*t about the award, or about his lost pension. The list of grievances against ALPA is long - as is the collective memory of the East.

And no disrespect to your relatives, but any attorney who spends 10 minutes laughing nonstop about anything - I would not look to as a source of wisdom and guidance.

I think it all boils down to this, your attorneys say tomahto, our attorneys say tomato.

 

[exB717Flyer]

USA320Pilot responds: According to USAPA's President and Lee Seham USAPA can prevent the Nicolau Award from being implemented.

I asked you before and you didn't respond: is there a different letter you're referring to other than the one you published here? Because the letter you published made no such assertion, in fact, it stated quite the opposite. The Nic Award is binding no matter what union there is. You can succeed in delaying its implementation but the list is the list. Instead of basing your opinion on your poor reading comprehension why don't you pose it directly to the lawyers?

 

[USA320Pilot]

Ex717,

There is no letter as such; however, I had a 10-hour one-on-one conversation with the USAPA president, a man I believe has character, and he indicated through his converstaions with USAPA's law firm that throwing ALPA off of the property can prevent the Nicolau Award from being implemented.

There is more information on this subject obtained from Lee Seham on the USAPA website.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Very Interesting Read. I hope you can take the time to do so.

"The History of ALPA in Nine Paragraphs"

Well, another Labor Day is upon us and what is the current state of airline pilots in America? Yet another year has passed, and there are still no pensions, no nice paycheck increases, no schedules that even resemble what they were a mere dozen years ago (I guess so much for "Schedule with Safety" crap). In fact, if one cares to take an even closer look, one can discover that a NYC taxi cab driver can make more money today than a widebody airline Captain, which pretty much says it all. And all of this takes place while a new ALPA leader claims we are going to "take it back," whatever the true definition of "it" is.

I have been officially "retired" for over two years now, and can truthfully say I am happy to be there. This, after working many low-paying, long hour jobs to get my position with Eastern back in 1970, a lifetime ago. Back then, I really thought I had arrived. Instead of "arriving" today we all should ask ourselves, "Where did it go?" and more importantly, "How did it get away?" If one looks back on the sordid history of ALPA, it is pretty clear what happened, and the downhill slide began with JJ O'Donnell, a former Eastern pilot, at the ALPA helm. O'Donnell's first really big test as ALPA President came with the institution of airline deregulation that was first proposed by Gerald Ford, with the help of the esteemed Senator from Massachusetts Ted Kennedy and then-CAB Chairman Mr. Alfred Kahn, and instituted by the one-term loser, Jimmy Carter. Back then I was serving my first term as an elected MEC Rep from Eastern's NY base, under the expert tutelage of Skip Copeland. Skip and I spent many long hours going over and over where deregulation would ultimately wind up, and who would be the most impacted by it, finally coming to the conclusion that due to the internal ALPA structure all ALPA-represented airline pilots would eventually be negatively impacted, but not at the same time, for a number of reasons. But the real bugaboo was ALPA's structure, which meant that the pilots from different airlines would salivate over the demise of their "brothers," because their "brothers'" pain and suffering would mean many more promotions for the survivors--that is until it became "their turn in the barrel," so to speak. But ALPA did have a weapon that could have been branded, and all it would take was some true leadership and lots of communications. It didn't take any special genius to see who was targeted by the anti-labor airline deregulation, but the first needed step was to remove the blinders, cut the bullshit and understand what the term "deregulation" really meant from a workers perspective. This meant that the vast majority of airline pilots had to first view themselves as--gasp-- workers. But, even though Copeland and I proposed a national Stoppage Of Service at the '78 ALPA BOD meeting, O'Donnell and vast majority of the BOD chose to ignore our call to arms through a SOS, and instead focus on "business as usual." Hell, the BOD even turned down our suggestions for a national pilot contract, which in Skip's uncanny words of wisdom would have "locked in pilot wages like a gallon of fuel," meaning everyone would be paid the same, so there could be no playing off one group against the other. Next, our proposal for a prospective national seniority list was also turned down, as was another proposed top echelon ALPA committee to look into the long term effects of deregulation on airline pilots. Great ALPA representation--no?

So, while deregulation quickly became the "law of the land" because of no ALPA opposition, not one person from ALPA ever even lifted a finger to truly enforce the flimsy requirement that those put out of work because of deregulation had to be the first hired at other carriers--just ask the Braniff guys about that. Next came the air traffic controllers strike, followed by Reagan's scabs and with it another blown chance for O'Donnell to take the side of labor. What happened this time? He again sold out to the Washington politicians, took to the airwaves and lied when told the American traveling public that the air traffic control system was "safe," in spite of the fact that he knew it wasn't. He knew because many of his own pilots were telling him it wasn't. I am proud to say that Council 51--Skip and my Council--was the only one in ALPA to publicly call on Reagan to rehire the controllers. Sure, there were problems with some individual controllers, but these paled in comparison to what Reagan's actions against them meant to every American worker, including airline pilots. But O'Donnell sat there with his thumb up his ass doing nothing, but no doubt praying every night there would be no midairs or other type of controller-induced calamity.

Then came the crew complement issue, when O'Donnell let the political hacks decide how many pilots we--those of us who did it every day--needed to safely fly the new generation of airlines coming off the assembly line. I clearly remember addressing the BOD from the podium and telling them if they agreed to this inane idea that we would soon be flying the 747 with 2 pilots, and I was practically heckled off the podium with cries of, "We will never fly the 747 with 2 pilots!" The rest is history.

When the ALPA BOD finally threw out O'Donnell, they put Hank Duffy in his place, yet another 3-piece empty foreign-made suit who thought that he and the ALPA pilots could fight the likes of Lorenzo with the capitalists tool, money, instead of every ALPA-represented pilot in America getting down and dirty and hitting the bricks over what Lorenzo did to the CAL pilots. Ah, but that brings us back once again to that dirty little ALPA internal structure that dictates when a "brother" is hurting, another "brother" benefits from his pain.

Babbitt then came next. Yes, the same Babbitt who compared ALPA National to a "mother ship" that had all these little boats in the form of the pilots from the various ALPA-represented airlines tethered to it. This Einstein went on to explain that when one of the little boats began to founder, it had to be cut off, so it wouldn't sink the "mother ship," and that was exactly what ALPA National did to the Eastern pilots--cut them off. Now that might sound innocent enough, but it's not when you think of it in terms of the human toll; the suicides, divorces, kids removed college, homes sold, lives destroyed by the anxiety and suffering. These are all of the items a true union is there to prevent, not enable, but then again, Mr. Babbitt now is out there peddling his services to the highest bidder, just like, oh well, you know.

Speaking of enabling, I could go on and on about the recent pension, pay and work rule giveaways that Babbitt's successor, Mr. Woerthless enabled, but there is no need to do that because their actions are painfully burned into our recent memories, and hopefully, Woerthless and his cronies will be held accountable in both a Court of Law and in the Court of public opinion.

You might wonder what is next on the anti-labor, anti-pilot agenda? Well, if you take a look in that Copeland-type of crystal ball, you can clearly see that having foreigners fly our domestic routes is bearing down on us at about Mach .84. Think of things like "Virgin America," etc. And what will ALPA do about this? I think we all know that answer, because reality dictates that with the same internal structure still in place and the sad, sad story of what the ALPA "leadership" has done to a once-proud profession, means it will be impossible to "Take it back." Instead, a better slogan might be, "More of the same to come."

All I ask is that you ponder the foregoing during this long Labor Day weekend when we celebrate the true labor leaders of yesteryear and not the phonies who have now taken their place on the dais. Also think of where the ALPA policy of always taking the perceived easy way out has gotten us. And, while you're at it, say a silent prayer for those who paid so dearly for this unwritten ALPA policy.

Fraternally,

XXXXX
Retired

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

They are human, you know. The post just sparked a laugh because of the word "preponderance" and its usage in past examples of "weekend lawyers" gone wild, uh, bad. It had nothing to do with laughing at the poster. Anyway, yes, they say one thing and you say another. Bottom line is there is no case law that supports overturning a federal arbitrated decision (absent criminal wrongdoing). Sorry, but that is a fact.

And no disrespect to your relatives, but any attorney who spends 10 minutes laughing nonstop about anything - I would not look to as a source of wisdom and guidance.

I think it all boils down to this, your attorneys say tomahto, our attorneys say tomato.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

I think what mr. misinformation is alluding to is that voting in USAPA May prevent Nic from being IMPLEMENTED. The key words are "may" and "implemented", and not WILL and OVERTURN. Just another attempt to mislead the pilots.

I asked you before and you didn't respond: is there a different letter you're referring to other than the one you published here? Because the letter you published made no such assertion, in fact, it stated quite the opposite. The Nic Award is binding no matter what union there is. You can succeed in delaying its implementation but the list is the list. Instead of basing your opinion on your poor reading comprehension why don't you pose it directly to the lawyers?

 

[usabusdriver]

It is my understanding ALPA or USAPA needs to obtain a 50% + 1 of the votes cast during the election or a simple majority of those who vote. This would permit the winning union to immediately represent both the East and West pilots, therefore; the East and West pilots would continue to have union representation from the day USAPA is born.

I believe all representational elections require a majority of eligible voters to vote in the affirmative for a change in representation to take place not just a majority of votes cast. This prevents 10 pilots voting, 6 for and 4 against, causing a change in representation for 5000 pilots.

The East pilots will be the “majorityâ€￾ negotiator and the West pilots would become the “minorityâ€￾ negotiator -- with the parties free to set their own constitution and by-laws and merger policy.

But the Nic award would still stand, as it is a legally binding document. Just as the other seniority arbitration awards that have taken place on the property. PSA, Piedmont, (Empire as well), and the Shuttle.

If you project what you are advocating, creating a new merger "policy" and integrating the seniority list by DOH and ignoring past arbitration awards, then the current east seniority list would also have changes. The new representational group would be required by law to treat the entire pilot group equally and fairly when implementing the “newâ€￾ merger policy. Incorporating the original DOH of the PSA, Piedmont, Empire, Alleghany, and Shuttle pilots would cause changes to the positional status that has been in place since the late 1980’s. I of course am making reference to the Empire pilots who were given a DOH of 1986 for the seniority list with Piedmont and who would have a significant change in positional seniority with a strict DOH seniority list, as well as the Shuttle pilots who would have their Eastern DOH.

I think it would be very hard to argue that since the new USAPA seniority policy is DOH they will ignore the Nicolau award because it is not structured strictly by DOH, and not ignore previous arbitration awards when applying DOH for a pilot’s position on the new pilot seniority list, especially since some of the previous awards were not strictly by DOH.

Just trying to provoke the thought process. Flame protection suite on.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

That says it all right there...the rest is pure rhetoric.

East pilots do yourself a huge favor and do not listen to anyone who says they can overturn the award by getting rid of ALPA. It will be a huge disappointment.

Ex717,

There is no letter as such; however, I
Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[OldpropGuy]

Is it just me?

Doe's anyone not realize the definition ot "BINDING ARBITRATION?"

 

[exB717Flyer]

There is no letter as such; however, I had a 10-hour one-on-one conversation with the USAPA president, a man I believe has character, and he indicated through his converstaions with USAPA's law firm that throwing ALPA off of the property can prevent the Nicolau Award from being implemented.

We already know that absent a Joint Contract the List won't be implemented. But that's a big difference from saying a different union can nullify it. Previous covenents (the Transition Agreemnt) and CBAs are binding until a new CBA takes over. I still say you're interpreting Seeham incorrectly. I'm not afraid of USAPA. If they take over I'll deal with it. I'm confident in the RLA rules being followed.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Does anyone not realize the definition ot "BINDING ARBITRATION?"

It's funny how they claim they don't disagree with the Nicolau; they just think he didn't follow Policy. The highest governing board of ALPA, the Executive Counsel, found it was valid, and every lawyer has agreed that no judge would ever overturn it. Yet they still claim it's invalid. I believe the expression for this is "cognitive dissonance".

 

[BoeingBoy]

I believe all representational elections require a majority of eligible voters to vote in the affirmative for a change in representation to take place not just a majority of votes cast. This prevents 10 pilots voting, 6 for and 4 against, causing a change in representation for 5000 pilots.

Not quite right......

If the majority of eligible voters doesn't cast votes for any union (i.e. don't vote or vote "No"), then the group loses representation. However, as long as the majority of eligible voters casts a vote for union representation (any union since write-in's are allowed), the union getting the majority of votes cast wins.

From the NMB's faq's:

"Q: How is the winner of an election determined?"

"A: If a majority of eligible voters in the craft or class vote for representation, then the organization that receives the majority of the votes cast "wins" the election."

Jim

 

[AAA73Pilot]

As I've said. It's easier to get elected than to get an election.