AAA ALPA Topic 8/31/07 - 9/06/07

[AAA73Pilot]

Yes, I'm sure that's what it was. They would have been there if they had the time - NOT - AGAIN!!! I heard differently - they weren't coming no way no how.

Once again, and read carefully, The "Event" had nothing to do with parity. Once again, look at what the reaction was by the target audience. You can post all the public code-a-phones, MEC, LEC letters you want. The "Event" was targeted at Prater, ALPA and the AWA MEC.

It was a setup to prepare the east pilots for a CBA negotiated by National ALPA. Look what we're doing for you but we received no support. Or it's not our fault, we tried but received no support. Job preservation at its best. The word on the street is Prater has the power to negotiate and sign a CBA with or without a vote. For both of us.

Thanks Stephan for getting the fence sitters off the fence. Think about it.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

You are incorrect here. Maybe, half their age... but greater seniority. Not my fault you worked at USAir.

Thanks for pointing it out. You, like most west pilots want it all now. Instead of waiting for 5-6 years. In which case it would be yours anyway.

I on the other hand, have 6-7 years to go. As a permanent F/O under Nic there will be no way to add or make up for some of the lost benefits. You on the other hand, and a lot of the younger AWA pilots have many years to set yourself up. Is that what you want? The east retirees to leave the middle class and go into poverty at age 60? Once again the ALPA structure allows one pilots pain to become another pilots gain. Yea, you're my brother. Thanks.

 

[prechilill]

Thanks for pointing it out. You, like most west pilots want it all now. Instead of waiting for 5-6 years. In which case it would be yours anyway.

I on the other hand, have 6-7 years to go. As a permanent F/O under Nic there will be no way to add or make up for some of the lost benefits. You on the other hand, and a lot of the younger AWA pilots have many years to set yourself up. Is that what you want? The east retirees to leave the middle class and go into poverty at age 60? Once again the ALPA structure allows one pilots pain to become another pilots gain. Yea, you're my brother. Thanks.

If you want charity, go down to your local church and ask for it-- don't come asking for my position on the seniority I brought to the merger. The seniority you brought to the merger was preserved with the arbitrated seniority list. There was no windfall, unless you consider the fact every USAir East pilot gained a few percent in relative seniority with this merger.
If you have problems with no fences in the final decision take that complaint to the morons that negotiated on your behalf. Don't blame us, or the rest of the world for that matter.
Have a great day!

 

[ClueByFour]

Actually we expect dues to go down. And yes, there are consequences associated with the removal of ALPA. Nic or no-Nic, a new union is a very real possibility. But if Nic is submitted, this I will guarantee, USAPA will be elected. There are still fence sitters waiting for ALPA's proposal/s. Absent a successful conclusion or solution, it just means more cards and more supporters.

So a new union is elected. DOH is still not going to happen, which is really what this is all about.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Wilson polling says they will and I've had experience with Comstock. The polling is dead-on. USAPA knows this and is afraid.

Tough job, but it looks like I'm getting through.

And John Kerry won by using polling also. Too bad it doesn't count when you have to finally make a decision. USAPA is not afraid of anything. The way I see it, USAPA will be elected, with or without the Nicolau award being passed on. If Nic is passed on, I guarantee we will have a new union.

BTW. If Bradford was and is out west collecting cards, do you still believe USAPA does not want your input once elected? I have said over and over, the supporters of USAPA just want ALPA removed. Say what you will, USAPA is for all pilots, "Top to bottom".

Keep posting, because I showed a cut and paste of yours to a classmate who was a fence sitter. His card is in the mail.

 

[700UW]

Just remember it is against company policy to use your non-rev travel for union organizing.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

If you want charity, go down to your local church and ask for it-- don't come asking for my position on the seniority I brought to the merger. The seniority you brought to the merger was preserved with the arbitrated seniority list. There was no windfall, unless you consider the fact every USAir East pilot gained a few percent in relative seniority with this merger.
If you have problems with no fences in the final decision take that complaint to the morons that negotiated on your behalf. Don't blame us, or the rest of the world for that matter.
Have a great day!

I lost 15 years seniority. What did you gain? Which keeps me as a permanent F/O. Charity? I don't want charity from my brothers. You just proved again that one pilots pain is another pilots gain under the ALPA umbrella.

Trust me on this, there are alternatives if Nic is passed on. We may have to live with it, or we may not. But there are alternatives.

 

[electricjet98]

Actually we expect dues to go down.

Considering the multiple lawsuits that are certain to be brought by the west, CBA contract negotiations by professionals (I believe this is advocated by USAPA) and such services as Aeromedical (the group that is contracted by ALPA will not take on a group that was previously ALPA), how can you possibly expect dues to go down????

 

[AAA73Pilot]

So a new union is elected. DOH is still not going to happen, which is really what this is all about.

Actually, no its not. There are many USAPA supporters who just want ALPA removed. PERIOD! Some people are on board for their own reasons i.e. DOH. But a lot of us are on board simply and foremost to see ALPA gone. And I hope it works!

 

[prechilill]

I lost 15 years seniority. What did you gain? Which keeps me as a permanent F/O. Charity? I don't want charity from my brothers. You just proved again that one pilots pain is another pilots gain under the ALPA umbrella.

Trust me on this, there are alternatives if Nic is passed on. We may have to live with it, or we may not. But there are alternatives.

I didn't ask for this acquisition- it happened. In the real world you lost nothing. You were at the bottom before the merger and you are still at the bottom after the merger. Your "pain" by choosing to stay with a dying airline was your choice. The consequence of your decision, though, is wholly your own.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Considering the multiple lawsuits that are certain to be brought by the west, CBA contract negotiations by professionals (I believe this is advocated by USAPA) and such services as Aeromedical (the group that is contracted by ALPA will not take on a group that was previously ALPA), how can you possibly expect dues to go down????

You have to have grounds to file or it becomes frivolous. The west pilots will be given every opportunity to participate. So what grounds are we talking about? If you don't participate that is a choice, not grounds. IMO.

The pro's are not the problem, your potential participation or lackof is. But then that's your choice also. You will always have the ability to vote.

Aeromed? What would ALPA do, write them a letter expressing our outrage? Oh please, the aeromed people are in the business to make money. So ALPA threatens to pull out. Who is out there specialised to replace them? None that I know of yet. In which case the aeromed people will have a choice also. Either way, their income is threatened to go down. Besides, they took on the AA pilots didn't they? Where was ALPA on that one? Oh yea, we're going to write you a letter expressing our outrage.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I didn't ask for this acquisition- it happened. In the real world you lost nothing. You were at the bottom before the merger and you are still at the bottom after the merger. Your "pain" by choosing to stay with a dying airline was your choice. The consequence of your decision, though, is wholly your own.

I didn't ask for it either. I haven't lost any seniority yet. The dying part is and always will be speculation. The odds of us closing the doors were stacked against us, but then you never know what the last chance giveaway would have been. Just like the TWA pilots. Not pleasant, but then that is why we were and still would have been a going concern. Luckily we never got to that part.

I stayed because of my age. Pure and simple. Starting over would not have been a pleasant option either. Then I would have had absolutely no chance to make up my lost benefits. I rolled the dice, placing a lot of misguided trust once again in a failed union / association. Personally, I am glad I didn't have to make that decision.

 

[electricjet98]

You have to have grounds to file or it becomes frivolous. The west pilots will be given every opportunity to participate. So what grounds are we talking about? If you don't participate that is a choice, not grounds. IMO.

Ah....you mean better grounds than the east MEC lawsuit against the west MEC? Actually, we would have much better grounds since USAPA's primary goal is to devalue the Nic award that was legally agreed to by both pilot groups. Regardless of the validity of the lawsuit, it costs money to process a lawsuit even though it may have no legal merit. And as I said earlier, expect multiple lawsuits!

The pro's are not the problem, your potential participation or lackof is. But then that's your choice also. You will always have the ability to vote.

You say the pro's are not the problem....any idea on their cost or are you just speculating?

Aeromed? What would ALPA do, write them a letter expressing our outrage? Oh please, the aeromed people are in the business to make money. So ALPA threatens to pull out. Who is out there specialised to replace them? None that I know of yet. In which case the aeromed people will have a choice also. Either way, their income is threatened to go down. Besides, they took on the AA pilots didn't they? Where was ALPA on that one? Oh yea, we're going to write you a letter expressing our outrage.

We ran into this exact problem during our AWAPA drive. Aeromed Services are under contract with ALPA National and we were told by the doc's that the contract specified that they would not be able to provide services for AWAPA (since the pilot group was previously ALPA).

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Ah....you mean better grounds than the east MEC lawsuit against the west MEC? Actually, we would have much better grounds since USAPA's primary goal is to devalue the Nic award that was legally agreed to by both pilot groups. Regardless of the validity of the lawsuit, it costs money to process a lawsuit even though it may have no legal merit. And as I said earlier, expect multiple lawsuits!

You say the pro's are not the problem....any idea on their cost or are you just speculating?

We ran into this exact problem during our AWAPA drive. Aeromed Services are under contract with ALPA National and we were told by the doc's that the contract specified that they would not be able to provide services for AWAPA (since the pilot group was previously ALPA).

I have always said, the MEC lawsuit had no chance. Still waiting for them to get hammered over it.

Once again your assuming. Not all of us who are USAPA supporters want to devalue anything. We just want ALPA to go away. PERIOD. It took 20 years for this event to bring this pilot group together. Too bad it was for this reason. But you will still have the opportunity to express your opinion through a VOTE!

There are consequences for multiple filings of frivolous lawsuits. Funny that was from a west guy. Over the same frivolous MEC lawsuit. see above. Which I happened to agree with.

Have heard some figures passed around on the pro's. It's not as expensive as you think. Unlike what our ALPA people have charged through FPL. Besides, Sen Bill Bradley told the Legislative Affairs people that we were flat out "Out negotiated". He suggested next time we hire pro's just like the NBA. Interesting comment that USAPA has thankfully heeded.

Then how did the AA pilots get in on the aeromed services? Or is that something out of ALPA's heart and goodwill? Look what it got them so far from the APA. Lukewarm support on certain issues at best. But then again, 5000 pilots are more than 1800.

 

[BoeingBoy]

There are consequences for multiple filings of frivolous lawsuits. Funny that was from a west guy. Over the same frivolous MEC lawsuit. see above. Which I happened to agree with.

Though I'm certainly no lawyer, there appears to be more than enough evidence to convince a judge that West lawsuits against USAPA are not frivolous as long as they're on one issue - the seniority award. In multiple places on just the public side of decertifyalpa.org, there are statements that indicate USAPA will have overturning the award as one of it's goals. Hardly "representing all pilots", vote or not.

Jim