AAA ALPA Topic 8/31/07 - 9/06/07

[SkyRat]

I will have a very professional time my last years here, we will get to know each other very well.

SWEET!

 

[Phoenix]

MEC CHAIRMAN’S MESSAGE - September 3, 2007

This is MEC Chairman Jack Stephan with a Labor Day message to the pilots for Monday, September 03, 2007.

Last week we conducted our first series of crewroom visits .....

Prater Jr. didn't say Jack about what he plans to do.

Oh Jaaaack... are we getting retro pay now that Sep 1 has passed and gone? :down:

 

[700UW]

To: All USAirways pilots
From: U S Airline Pilots Association

Subject: Election Cards

Gentlemen,
The clock is ticking and we need to move forward to the next phase of submitting the cards to the Labor Relations Board.
Fraternally,
Leadership Committee
USAPA

I would certainly hope they know if they submit their cards to the Labor Relations Board, they will be laughed at! The National Labor Relations Board does not handle employees under the Railway Labor Act, that would be The National Mediation Board, guess they missed that day in Unions 101!

 

[OldpropGuy]

Reality Check!!!!

Just because you don't like something, it does not go away!

Binding arbitration is binding acccording to the law!

No one, or any other make believe union can change that!

Sometimes you just have to face the facts and make the best of it!

If you choose to roll the dice, the casino does not allow do-overs!

The casino has big bouncers, and they do not really care if you do not like losing!

Going to another casino does not change the results of your previous loss!

When you were a kid, and your dog died, not even your parents could bring it back!

Life does not always seem fair, but your unhappiness does not change the outcome!

Did you ever see a kid scream, cry and throw a temper tantrum? Did he gain your sympathy, or just look like a spoiled brat?

Maybe it's not all just about you, after all.

Are you guys really that hopeless?

I should send you to your rooms, as it's not proper to beat kids anymore. Then again, I still remember what a belt on the rear feels like, from fifty or so years ago. (Thanks Dad, I seem to have turned out alright after all, compared to many others!)

Have a long discussion with yourselves, and think about it.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Well, I talked to myself and a few other memorable "set in stone" rules came to mind. They did go away.

You are a woman, you can't vote, what are you thinking about, get back in the kitchen.

Black people ride in the back of the bus, are not allowed in this establishment and have their own drinking and restroom facilities.

Kids working in a factory, whats wrong with that?

I can probably think of a few more. The award stinks....period.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Guys,
I am still waiting to hear what part of ALPA merger policy you feel was violated. The east has made it quite clear that they feel the merger policy was not followed. Which part specifically? I've heard the windfall argument. The goals/policies/giudelines are in place for the respective merger committees while they negotiate amongst themselves. Are they not? Going to arbitration is something both sides forced because the east wanted DOH/LOS and the west was not about to let that happen (it would have destroyed the AWA list). So once you get there do you not give away your control to the arbiter?

So to clear up my question, can somebody from the east please tell me difinitively what part of the merger policy was violated. And can you provide proof that, once arbitration is reached, the arbitration board is bound by the ALPA merger policy tenets? I believe the board is not...

Another question I have for the east concerns ALPA. Now I am no fan of ALPA, but I am curious why you blame ALPA for this mess. Did national force us into arbitration? Did ALPA influence Nicolau? Why is it you want ALPA gone?

Thanks,
Tiger

 

[Piedmont1984]

Guys,
I am still waiting to hear what part of ALPA merger policy you feel was violated. The east has made it quite clear that they feel the merger policy was not followed. Which part specifically? I've heard the windfall argument. The goals/policies/giudelines are in place for the respective merger committees while they negotiate amongst themselves. Are they not? Going to arbitration is something both sides forced because the east wanted DOH/LOS and the west was not about to let that happen (it would have destroyed the AWA list). So once you get there do you not give away your control to the arbiter?

So to clear up my question, can somebody from the east please tell me difinitively what part of the merger policy was violated. And can you provide proof that, once arbitration is reached, the arbitration board is bound by the ALPA merger policy tenets? I believe the board is not...

Another question I have for the east concerns ALPA. Now I am no fan of ALPA, but I am curious why you blame ALPA for this mess. Did national force us into arbitration? Did ALPA influence Nicolau? Why is it you want ALPA gone?

Thanks,
Tiger

Had the arbitrator come out with a list that gave the greatest seniority to those pilots based closest to the Atlantic Ocean, would you still say he is well within his scope and authority?

And if your answer is yes, then why even ask if merger policy was violated, it appears merger policy is irrelevant to you once the issue is turned over to an arbitrator.

But let's assume you really don't feel that way. Then to answer your question, one side received a windfall at the expense of the other, which violates ALPA merger policy. Had the award been a true compromise, both sides would have been equally unhappy or happy depending on each pilot's individual position.

The totally lopsided reaction to this award demonstrates just how deeply flawed it is. You guys want it. We do not.

ALPA has dissappointed us many times in the past. This is simply the last straw. Instead of taking responsibility to see that merger policy was complied with, they are doing the Pontius Pilate routine.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Actually, no. Any successor is bound by the rules and agreements of the in-place CBA. A joint contract would indeed require the entity formerly known as ALPA-West to independently ratify it.

I was wondering how long it would take before someone brought this up. So much for the DOH cramdown, eh?

Like I said, it's a very interesting point to consider. Under USAPA there is not a mechanism for east west negotiations for a new CBA. Just the company and USAPA. Since ALPA would officially be off the property how could a new CBA be negotiated? We believe that ALPA rules and procedures will be replaced with USAPA block representation and voting. After the challenges, we also believe the USAPA mechanism of governing will prevail. Not ALPA's.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Reality Check!!!!

No one, or any other make believe union can change that!

USAPA is not make believe. Nic may stay or go But USAPA is here to stay.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

The NMB will have something to say about that: let me save you some time. You cannot toss out the TA any more than our CBA - both were negotiated and signed under RLA. Where do you guys come up with this stuff. :blink:

I believe we will end up with an East USAPA and a West USAPA until a joint contract is signed with the Nic award. If USAPA is telling you the West CBA and the joint TA will all fall under East control...well, tell em I said to step away from the smack and put the crack pipe down.

Like I said, it's a very interesting point to consider. Under USAPA there is not a mechanism for east west negotiations for a new CBA. Just the company and USAPA. Since ALPA would officially be off the property how could a new CBA be negotiated? We believe that ALPA rules and procedures will be replaced with USAPA block representation and voting. After the challenges, we also believe the USAPA mechanism of governing will prevail. Not ALPA's.

 

[usabusdriver]

Not quite right......

If the majority of eligible voters doesn't cast votes for any union (i.e. don't vote or vote "No"), then the group loses representation. However, as long as the majority of eligible voters casts a vote for union representation (any union since write-in's are allowed), the union getting the majority of votes cast wins.

From the NMB's faq's:

"Q: How is the winner of an election determined?"

"A: If a majority of eligible voters in the craft or class vote for representation, then the organization that receives the majority of the votes cast "wins" the election."

Jim

Jim,

Thanks for the clarification

 

[AAA73Pilot]

The NMB will have something to say about that: let me save you some time. You cannot toss out the TA any more than our CBA - both were negotiated and signed under RLA. Where do you guys come up with this stuff. :blink:

I believe we will end up with an East USAPA and a West USAPA until a joint contract is signed with the Nic award. If USAPA is telling you the West CBA and the joint TA will all fall under East control...well, tell em I said put to step away from the smack and put the crack pipe down.

Maybe so maybe no. I am only stating my opinion. However, we are not tossing it out. I said there is no mechanism to operate under ALPA rules and precedures. It makes for an interesting dilema.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

If that were to happen there is nothing we could do about it! But, I'll tell you one thing; from that point on I guarantee you there would be some serious negotiations going on that would go no further than mediation. In arbitration, a third party controls your destiny. I believe the East leadership grossly underestimated the strength of their case.

Something good will come of this mess; During all future mergers there will be a greater focus on resolving seniority issues between the two MECs. The alternative is a roll of the dice.

Had the arbitrator come out with a list that gave the greatest seniority to those pilots based closest to the Atlantic Ocean, would you still say he is well within his scope and authority?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

If that were to happen there is nothing we could do about it! But, I'll tell you one thing; from that point on I guarantee you there would be some serious negotiations going on that would go no further than mediation. In arbitration, a third party controls your destiny. I believe the East leadership grossly underestimated the strength of their case.

Something good will come of this mess; During all future mergers there will be a greater focus on resolving seniority issues between the two MECs. The alternative is a roll of the dice.

You still haven't figured out me, and most of the USAPA supporters. I can't give you an exact figure, but most of the pilots I talk to just want ALPA off the property. I feel bad it is over this issue. But it was the right time, right opportunity to see ALPA removed. Reread my post by the retired pilot on his views on why we need to remove ALPA. I lived through the same bungling and ineptitude that permeates this failed association. The unification of the east pilots over this issue is what we have been waiting for. Do you really think USAPA just leaped forward the day after Nic came out?

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

I have said it before several times, ALPA is dead to me but I'm a little concerned about the ability of an in-house Union to financially handle a merger with one of the ALPA big boys with deep pockets. It wouldn't surprise me to see assesments in the 1-2k range to pay for another merger.

You still haven't figured out me, and most of the USAPA supporters. I can't give you an exact figure, but most of the pilots I talk to just want ALPA off the property. I feel bad it is over this issue. But it was the right time, right opportunity to see ALPA removed. Reread my post by the retired pilot on his views on why we need to remove ALPA. I lived through the same bungling and ineptitude that permeates this failed association. The unification of the east pilots over this issue is what we have been waiting for. Do you really think USAPA just leaped forward the day after Nic came out?