Aa To Buy Ua

[Oneflyer]

Tell me again why I'm wrong?





Your'e wrong.

Typical response, can't even understand the question.

When did it become there job to make the job more efficient. is that not the job of the highly trained management we are trying to hard to retain?

Union contracts force inefficientcy on the company. If you cut out all the silly work rules unions put into contracts you could probably eliminate 20% of MANAGEMENT and it would probably create union jobs.

They provide for a collective voice of the masses. They establish guidelines and work rules. They help to provide a quality of life for the employee.

Thats funny, I've worked all these years without guidelines or work rules, I've never felt it necessary to get someone else to make my work life better.

The give protections against wrongful termination and management harassment.

This is the "you don't have to work, because the union will sue the company if they fire you" clause. Those pesky management people always out to get you huh?

You really think it was simply a result of unionized employees, that brought down the steel industry?

I just think its odd that the only consistantly profitable steel company in the last 20 years has been NUCOR and they are the only non-unionized, while all the rest are unionized and they went broke. Of course i'm sure that Nucor had smart management and and the rest had stupid management.

 

[FA Mikey]

Union contracts force inefficientcy on the company. If you cut out all the silly work rules unions put into contracts you could probably eliminate 20% of MANAGEMENT and it would probably create union jobs.

[post="175490"][/post]​

That's not reality. Last time I checked a contract is a document and agreement, negotiated, and signed by both management and the union. Could you please elaborate on how and what union work rules force a company like AA or united to hire 20% more management positions?

 

[FA Mikey]

Thats funny, I've worked all these years without guidelines or work rules, I've never felt it necessary to get someone else to make my work life better.

[post="175490"][/post]​

Good for you, I guess they treat there own better than the help.

 

[FA Mikey]

This is the "you don't have to work, because the union will sue the company if they fire you" clause. Those pesky management people always out to get you huh?

[post="175490"][/post]​

I am not familiar with that clause in our APFA CBA. Could you look it up and give me the article number? Those pesky management out to get me? No not at all. When has this union sued the company over a single termination?

 

[FA Mikey]

I just think its odd that the only consistantly profitable steel company in the last 20 years has been NUCOR and they are the only non-unionized, while all the rest are unionized and they went broke. Of course i'm sure that Nucor had smart management and and the rest had stupid management.

[post="175490"][/post]​

No, they have less management and a better philosophy. Unlike the typical over managed airline company's. Management Philosophy. Unlike your belief that all unionized companies fail.

The company's success comes from its more than 9,900 employees. Nucor seeks to hire and retain highly talented and productive people. Nucor has a simple, streamlined organizational structure to allow employees to innovate and make quick decisions. The company is highly decentralized, with most day-to-day operating decisions made by the division general managers and their staff. The organizational structure at a typical division is made up of only three management layers:

* General Manager
* Department Manager
* Supervisor/Professional
* Hourly Employee

Employee relations at Nucor are based on four clear-cut principles:

1. Management is obligated to manage Nucor in such a way that employees will have the opportunity to earn according to their productivity.
2. Employees should be able to feel confident that if they do their jobs properly, they will have a job tomorrow.
3. Employees have the right to be treated fairly and must believe that they will be.
4. Employees must have an avenue of appeal when they believe they are being treated unfairly.

By implementing these four basic principles within a relatively simple organizational structure, Nucor has been able to attract and retain highly talented and productive employees.

Performance Based Compensation

Nucor provides employees with a performance related compensation system that rewards goal-oriented individuals. All employees are covered under one of four basic compensation plans, each featuring incentives related to meeting specific goals and targets.

1. Production Incentive Plan: Operating and maintenance employees and supervisors at the facilities are paid weekly bonuses based on the productivity of their work group. The rate is calculated based on the capabilities of the equipment employed, and no bonus is paid if the equipment is not operating. In general, the Production Incentive bonus can average from 80 to 150 percent of an employee's base pay.

2. Department Manager Incentive Plan: Department Managers earn annual incentive bonuses based primarily on the percentage of net income to dollars of assets employed for their division. These bonuses can be as much as 80 percent of a department manager's base pay.

3. Professional and Clerical Bonus Plan: This bonus is paid to employees that are not on the production or department manager plan and is based on the division's net income return on assets.

4. Senior Officers Incentive Plan: Nucor's senior officers do not have employment contracts. They do not participate in any pension or retirement plans. Their base salaries are set lower than what executives receive in comparable companies. The remainder of their compensation is based on Nucor's annual overall percentage of net income to stockholder's equity and is paid out in cash and stock.

In addition to these established bonus plans, Nucor has periodically issued an extraordinary bonus to all employees, except officers, in years of particularly strong company performance. This bonus has been as high as $800 for each employee.

Egalitarian Benefits

Nucor takes an egalitarian approach to providing benefits to its employees. That is, the upper levels of management do not enjoy better insurance programs, vacation schedules, or holidays. In fact, certain benefits such as Nucor's Profit Sharing, Scholarship Program, Employee Stock Purchase Plan, Extraordinary Bonus, and Service Awards Program are not available to Nucor's officers. Senior executives do not enjoy traditional perquisites such as company cars, corporate jets, executive dining rooms, or executive parking places.

Customer Service and Quality

Nucor is committed to uncompromising quality, responsive service, and competitive pricing. Through continuous innovation, modern equipment, dedication to the customer, and concentration on productivity from a highly motivated work force, Nucor has distinguished itself as a leading producer of quality steel and steel products. Many Nucor locations are ISO 9000 Certified. Nucor employees are committed to providing customers with the highest quality levels at the most competitive prices. And, while steel and steel products are Nucor's business, the real business of Nucor is its commitment to each and every customer on each and every order.

Technological Leadership

Nucor's strong emphasis on employee communication and commitment carries with it the commitment to provide the work force with the best technology available to get the job done right in a safe working environment. As evidence of that commitment, Nucor aggressively pursues the latest advancements in steel making around the world to determine what technology it can adapt in its facilities.

 

[Oneflyer]

No, they have less management and a better philosophy. Unlike the typical over managed airline company's. Management Philosophy. Unlike your belief that all unionized companies fail.

You just can't do this in a unionized environment, its just not possible. Productivity and streamlining is fought tooth and nail by the unions at every turn. Union philosophy is to attempt to create jobs by making the current work force less productive.

The organizational structure at a typical division is made up of only three management layers:

* General Manager
* Department Manager
* Supervisor/Professional
* Hourly Employee

How is this any different than the typical division at AA? airport or HDQ?
Airport:
GM
MOD: at big stations, at smaller stations this level isn't even there.
CSM
Hourly Employee

HDQ:
Senior VP
Managing Director
Manager
Analyst

I'm confused......

 

[FA Mikey]

How is this any different than the typical division at AA? airport or HDQ?
Airport:
GM
MOD: at big stations, at smaller stations this level isn't even there.
CSM
Hourly Employee

HDQ:
Senior VP
Managing Director
Manager
Analyst

I'm confused......

[post="175555"][/post]​

Let me help you. Just my work group. We have a base manager 3 ops managers, a MOD manager, then the flight service managers. So now we have 4 levels before we get to the division, to the system to the executive. We have more layers of management than poor little Dolly Partons coat of many colors.

 

[FA Mikey]

You just can't do this in a unionized environment, its just not possible. Productivity and streamlining is fought tooth and nail by the unions at every turn. Union philosophy is to attempt to create jobs by making the current work force less productive.

I'm confused......

[post="175555"][/post]​

How so, Oh you mean like when the company took a flight attendant off the 777 and said its still the same. Then a year later a n independent arbitrator tells the company No its not the same. You must put this person back or adjust the service. If this is AA's or your idea of productivity and streamlining, you are misguided. I am certainly not against it. But companies like AA do it in such a fashion as to make it impossible to get on board.

Unions can and do work successfully with companies. It takes a strong and confident team to listen and work with the union, which is made up of there own employees. The people the company hired. Problem's come from the companies who make unions and those in them out to be the enemy.

 

[AC AA LA FA]

go Mike go-

great postings-keep it up-
AC

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

No, they have less management and a better philosophy. Unlike the typical over managed airline company's. Management Philosophy. Unlike your belief that all unionized companies fail.

[post="175534"][/post]​

Nice cut/paste job, is this from Nucor's website?

Mikey, please remember that Nucor has operated under this philosophy since Day One (actually their ancestor company was Nuclear Corp of America, nothing to do with steelmaking) anyway to suggest that a unionized company, with all its history, suddenly adopt these management principles is ridiculous. I've followed Nucor for years.

Bar bet: did you know that you can pour water on steel but you can't pour steel on water? Why?

Any takers?

 

[FA Mikey]

Nice cut/paste job, is this from Nucor's website?

[post="175644"][/post]​

Thank you, Oh course it is from there site. The best place to some history and information about a compnay is from there own site.

Mikey, please remember that Nucor has operated under this philosophy since Day One (actually their ancestor company was Nuclear Corp of America, nothing to do with steelmaking) anyway to suggest that a unionized company, with all its history, suddenly adopt these management principles is ridiculous. I've followed Nucor for years.

[post="175644"][/post]​

I am not suggesting that at all. I am countering someone else who simply believes that all the steel mills went bankrupt because of unions. That unions are counter productive to company's health and growth.

I disagree and say that unions can be a great resource and partner in a company's prosperity. If they are at a place where they are not treated like the enemy, and looked down on. There can be a great collaboration. Unions and management can work together to beat the competition instead of beating each other up in a game of one ups-manship.

That type of short sighted behavior is what creates the aura of contempt and disdain. There is no workable partnership when one side is not looked on as an equal partner in the business success.

Many company's have gone to their employees (unions) and worked together to forge a new way of working together. Brought failing companies from the brink of oblivion to become the shining star of there industry.

When they team up, who wins? The company, its employees, the investor and stock holders. When you go the other way. Who loses? The company, employees, the investors and stock holders.

Oneflyer use's Nucor as an example, saying that, here is a non union steel mill still in business and making money solely because they are non union.

About Nucor, if what I read is true. There is no need for a union. They have some excellent and unique ways of operating. Instead of rewarding only executive management for performance they reward the hourly workers. They seem to want to make working there productive, safe, and rewarding. I applaud there efforts and success's.

 

[laura62]

Claiming to be a prestigious aviation consulting firm and suggesting this kind of non-sense shows the complete ignorance of this particular firm. I'd laugh if this was posted on April 1 but somehow I think these people realliy believe it.


It is more likely that AA will buy every other legacy airline in the country than that they will buy UA. First of all, they don't need UA's problems and secondly, they have access to nearly all of the markets UA currentliy serves except for several Asian markets which AA can easily serve based on existing treaties.

[post="171211"][/post]​

You make sense on the first part. You should have stopped there.
Because if the second part held true about not needing other airlines problems why did they ever buy TWA? They certainly had thier own problems and a lot less to offer than United (let's not talk about the STL "hub" please...). Oh yeah-they got St Louis-Gatwick rights out of that deal. Yippee. Yeah, and buying "legacy" carrier USAir sounds good...

Lastly, if the "several Asian markets" are so easily accessible to get into why isn't AA flying them now? Easily accissible? Not. AA would cut off their right hand to get their hands on United's route rights.

 

[IORFA]

Laura62,

You sound very defensive for some reason. "BAD day at the office?" Some of the Asian routes UA flies to ARE accessible TODAY for AA. Problem is we don't have enough planes to fly there and even less money to buy them. IF, UA goes away, AA won't be the only bidder for the Asian routes. But, we also won't be bidding for all of them anyway. We are slowely growing in NRT and should continue the growth in years to come.

 

[laura62]

[quote name='IORFA' date='Sep 6 2004, 05:44 PM']
Laura62, You sound very defensive for some reason. "BAD day at the office?"/quote]

No, Dear. I'M on VOLUNTARY FURLOUGH! I collected unemployment insurance for 6 months! I have my health/dental insurance, passes, and when I return to work, I will with FULL SENIORITY to my ORIGINAL BASE! We walk almost every day to the beautiful southern California beach that we live at with our children, boogie boarding, body surfing, just lazing around . Now that's a good day at the "office"!

Some of the Asian routes UA flies to ARE accessible TODAY for AA. Problem is we don't have enough planes to fly there and even less money to buy them.

Now that is a problem, isn't it.


[quote name='IROFA] IF' date=' UA goes away, AA won't be the only bidder for the Asian routes. [quote=IROFA']

See IROFA's above quote concerning money and aircraft. and remember the moe bidders the higher the price. Don't count United out yet. We are a very determined gorup of people.

I say again. I don't wish for bad things to anyone. (Happy people usually don't.) But I will defend my company against ignorance from others. Especially those who wish us harm.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Laura62,
there was a certain amount of sarcasm in my post, including the 2nd paragraph.... AA really does realize the pain they have caused alot of their employees because of their string of acquisitions, none of which have turned out particularly well. AA might buy assets but they won't be buying any company in its whole - even at firesale prices.

AA really could begin service to Seoul, Taipei, Singapore, and Bangkok today if they wanted. All of those cities can be served by US carriers at will. SIN and BKK are beyond the range of a 777-200ER nonstop from the US but US carriers can carry local traffic between those two cities and ICN and TPE if AA desired. I believe you will see AA build a Pacific route system primarily focused on LAX and ORD w/ a secondary focus at SJC and DFW. HKG and China are the only markets that are not accessible to AA right now but that is changing in the near future. I will be very surprised if AA does not get the first new passenger carrier designation to China.

IORFA, AA has plenty of international aircraft to add considerable international service if they so desired and even more international capable aircraft that currently are domestically configured (767-300ERs) which work wonders over the Atlantic and to S. America, freeing 777s for Asia. And there will be quality used aircraft available on the market in the near future.