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Not entirely accurate. Yes, it's being ditched by some carriers, but those are the ones who never figured out how to deliver a true First product, and never got the money from offering it.ContUNITEus said:If you have ever worked for an airline, you should know that the general consensus is that FIRST CLASS (international that is) does not make money. Thus, it's being tussed left and right.
Agreed, but don't you think a large part of it is the route networks of the carriers that removed FC don't serve (or primarily serve) premium heavy products suited for their product/LOPA? I mean for a carrier like AZ or US no use having true international FC as CLT & PHL and FCO & MXP aren't especially premium heavy compared to say HKG, LHR, NRT, NYC etc.eolesen said:Not entirely accurate. Yes, it's being ditched by some carriers, but those are the ones who never figured out how to deliver a true First product, and never got the money from offering it.Airlines who understand what service means will continue to offer the cabin, and make money by doing it right.
jimntx said:Well, whether you call it F/C, Business Elite or a ham and cheese sandwich, it's still the very front cabin in the plane with the top of the line service. Which by the way, my STL friend, who is a senior AA flight attendant (about 30 years), said that Delta's front cabin service, amenities and food beat us all to hell and back.
57 777's to 58 767's. Seems pretty even to me. Not sure what you mean by the first 2 rows being called first class. That observation by you is lost on me. I've never seen any AA plane with business class call the first 2 rows first class. That would be stupid. How you could say that 777 first class is only recently good is crazy. Apparently you've never been on one. The seats are virtually the same. Small updates and different seat covers and trim is all. How you turned this into a I ride free thus the service is great thread is also weird and way off topic. I'm also confused how you got it free when you don't work there. For the international flights you would have had to buy a ZED ticket. At least for AA F/A's, we don't get free international jumpseat privelages. If you do at US, good for you. Otherwise it isn't free. The upgrade is free. Yet if you read my reply, I also said that Delta gives OA employees seats front to back. Not back to front. I also said Northwest did this too. I'm just not sure if Delta did that by themselves or if NW taught it to them. I fly Delta plenty domestically, have no reason to take them internationally. Seems like AdAstr... Has a handle on Delta service. Cant wait till you try to correct him. Maybe we just expect better things in life. I feel sorry that your expectations are lower than mine.ContUNITEus said:IORFA:
What's up with the dissing of DELTA's premium cabin? First off, Delta was one of the first US carriers to install the new lie-flat business class seats in the US. International First class is a thing of the past. Impractical for most airlines, as the new business class has replaced it. If you have ever worked for an airline, you should know that the general consensus is that FIRST CLASS (international that is) does not make money. Thus, it's being tossed left and right.
US Airways doesn't have First Class, and I seriously doubt that they will reinstall it. There is a reason why they removed it from their A333 to begin with.
The other thing you have to consider is that DELTA is the one and only airline that is ecstatic to put employees (and that is any airline employees) ahead of even FFs, and upgrade them to their premium cabin for free. That's a culture of good-will towards airline employees.
You don't have that mentality at US. For an agent to upgrade an employee to Envoy or domestic FC without that coupon, he/she has to risk his/her job. Last I remember about UA, they charged for that service as well or it was inaccessible to family members, meaning only the employee can travel or has to travel with them. I am not sure about AA, but I have heard that there is also a fee for FIRST and even Business. From what I have also seen, the majority of wide bodies at AA are 767. Those aircraft have Business Class Seats only, with the first two rows being renamed FIRST. So in essence no different than most carriers in the USA. 777's have been the exception to the fleet, because there is also space that can be sacrificed for it, and the old First in the 777 is not the same as the new one on the 773.
So with all of your boasting about AA's first time ever decent (and only recently installed) IFC, what's the point? Most employees or OAL staff will likely never see it fully free of charge.
You need to take a flight on DL on a 777LR. I guarantee you that (without you shelling out a dime) you have a great chance of getting in on BE. But then again, with you probably permeating a negative attitude towards DL while waiting, I could also see you NOT getting into that cabin ever.
I always say: When non-reving Internationally, especially to a destination that US doesn't serve, but DL does actually, I prefer to take DL over US - alone for the simple fact that at US I have to shell out money for the upgrade. At Delta, I get the upgrade for free. Even a ZED ticket beats the price. With US I'd have to stop in LHR or FRA, then ZED anyway the rest.
Well let me tell you that you are wrong. I can tell you from first hand experience from my time at UAL, (AND GRANTED THAT THIS IS FROM THE PAST) that it based its flying to destinations around the world, solely on the amount of Business Class Seats sold. I quote a UAL trainer, "We constantly evaluate our route network. If not enough business class seats are sold, we discontinue the route." At the time DUS and MXP were on the axe list, and DUS was eventually dropped, First Class or not. That's is why UAL shrunk in Europe and South America to almost nothing pre-CO-merger.eolesen said:Not entirely accurate. Yes, it's being ditched by some carriers, but those are the ones who never figured out how to deliver a true First product, and never got the money from offering it.
Airlines who understand what service means will continue to offer the cabin, and make money by doing it right.
IORFA said:Her opinion. Others have different ones. Their Business Elite is on par to our business class. Slightly better, yet lesser than First class. Their domestic First is a joke. Absolute joke if you ask me. Flights that I am on that are 2 hours or less receive a snack basket at all times of the day. That is embarrassing! Overall, their service beats no one to hell and back. You should have laughed at your friend. Maybe she should try flying international business and first on her employer. She might change her tune.
ContUNITEus said:
4 flight attendants on a 737? Just wait and see.
You will be in for a loooong surprise over time. Get used to change.
<QUOTE>The only reason is that the service warrants it....</QUOTE> ?????? DP's thought on it: If it can be staffed with 3 only, it'll be with 3 for the rest of the time to come. And yes without removing service levels. You'll just have to figure out how to do it. If they were able to do it at AWA, and then they made US do it so as well, then AA will be just fine the same way.IORFA said:The 4th F/A only shows up on transcons and some medium haul international. The only reason is that the service warrants it. If Parker wants the service to be at the same level AND timing, then the extra F/A is needed. If they don't, then remove the extra and lower the service. No problem. That is why our contract lets us grieve staffing issues. APFA has a pretty good record on this. Won members millions from the 777 and maintained the current staffing. AA had to reduce the service that was offered or add the additional F/A the union wanted. AA paid for understaffing the flights and reduced the service instead of adding the extra. Problem solved. They told us that they were going to add seats in the 737 a year ago, which would necessitate the 4th anyway. Pretty much everything else domestically is FAR minimum.
OT and just wonderin'. Should your sons or daughters be interested in flying commercial pilot--- and you had to foot the bill... would you recommend it or not?eolesen said:To be polite, you should stick to serving customers and being a safety professional. Network planning and analysis doesn't appear to be amongst your strengths.
It's a business, not a dream factory. No airline starts up routes just because it might be neat.... You can't invent demand for long-haul routes if it isn't already there.
Expect perhaps Dubai and EK.eolesen said:It's a business, not a dream factory. No airline starts up routes just because it might be neat.... You can't invent demand for long-haul routes if it isn't already there.