A&e's New Series Airline

[W:EXCH:INVOL]

The difference is it's a heck of lot harder to get involuntarily denied if you have a seat assignment, boarding card and show up on time.

You said: And the funny part was...everybody who was bumped was sitting there, holding a boarding card with an assigned seat on it.

But then you said: They simply oversold the flight and gave someone a ticket that said "gate checkin required" on it.


I think I understand now.

 

[KCFlyer]

The difference is it's a heck of lot harder to get involuntarily denied if you have a seat assignment, boarding card and show up on time.

You said: And the funny part was...everybody who was bumped was sitting there, holding a boarding card with an assigned seat on it.

But then you said: They simply oversold the flight and gave someone a ticket that said "gate checkin required" on it.


I think I understand now.

W...If I buy a ticket on Delta, and it says "gate check in required" and nothing about "you may not get on this plane", should I feel any less "violated" when I am denied boarding?

And I'm not sure on Delta, but on Northwest, one can print a boarding pass - complete with "seat assignment" - 3 days before the trip. If a "gate check in person" shows up 90 minutes prior and gets his seat "assigned", and the person who printed the boarding pass from home gets there 60 minutes before then you've got two people, both holding an "assigned" seat. Which one should get involuntarily bumped? After all, the purpose of preprinting boarding cards from home was to bypass the counter check in.

"Show up on time" is a relative statement. Out of habit, I typically show up at the airport 90 minutes before my flight...even if I am holding an assigned seat. Anything shorter and I feel uncomfortable (delays in getting from the parking lot...long line at baggage check in, etc). Somebody else might feel that since they have their assigned seat, and boarding card they printed at home, then showing up 45 minutes before a flight is being "early". Bottom line, it ain't all that uncommon for someone holding an "assigned seat" to be bumped involuntarily.

 

[tadjr]

Bottom line, it ain't all that uncommon for someone holding an "assigned seat" to be bumped involuntarily.

I dont understand this one. If someone has an "assigned seat" and boarding pass and is on the plane in their "assigned seat" before the 10 minute cutoff, how are they going to be denied boarding? The only time I've seen someone with "an assigned seat" denied is when there has been a downsize of airplane and their assigned seat is no longer on the plane or someone shows up after the 10 minute cutoff and someone else has been assigned their seat. Hardly common occurances. Now if you mean a reservation, that is different than having an "assigned seat 4F"
In the past when you didnt have to "check in" and get a boarding pass until at least 10 minutes before departure this might have happened more often, but now since most carriers have check in cutoffs at 30 or more minutes, its also possible to have volunteers processed and on their way before the flight is finished boarding since you know 30 mins before dept who still needs a seat. Its also easier to guage how many volunteers you need since you are no longer guessing as to who will decide to show up at the last minute.

 

[KCFlyer]

I dont understand this one. If someone has an "assigned seat" and boarding pass and is on the plane in their "assigned seat" before the 10 minute cutoff, how are they going to be denied boarding? The only time I've seen someone with "an assigned seat" denied is when there has been a downsize of airplane and their assigned seat is no longer on the plane or someone shows up after the 10 minute cutoff and someone else has been assigned their seat. Hardly common occurances. Now if you mean a reservation, that is different than having an "assigned seat 4F"
In the past when you didnt have to "check in" and get a boarding pass until at least 10 minutes before departure this might have happened more often, but now since most carriers have check in cutoffs at 30 or more minutes, its also possible to have volunteers processed and on their way before the flight is finished boarding since you know 30 mins before dept who still needs a seat. Its also easier to guage how many volunteers you need since you are no longer guessing as to who will decide to show up at the last minute.

tadjr...

"assigned seat" - I book a flight a month in advance and I get an "assigned seat". Or are you saying that you all are misleading your customers who THINK that they have an "assigned seat" because the little "select your seat" window popped up when they made their reservation, so they "select" seat 12A, only to show up at the airport to find that they have been "assigned" seat 25B...last row middle seat??? Betcha they'd wish for open seating in that case.


"Boarding card" - can now be printed several days before the flight. This is to "help" the customer to avoid the long lines at check in. He prints his "boarding card" at home and shows up at the airport 25 minutes prior to the flight. Meanwhile, someone else checks in at the counter an hour early and and gets their boarding card.

Bottom line, you are trying to make it look like "assigned seating" would help Southwest avoid oversales. But the airlines who do assign seats still oversell theirs...they just put "gate check in required" on the reservation. If we want to be honest, why not put "you stand a good chance of not getting on this flight as it is already oversold and we are betting that the guy in 12A won't show up"? In fact, oversales on the big boys should be virtually nonexistant, since they now have $100 change fees on everything except full Y abnd F class tickets.

 

[mweiss]

In fact, oversales on the big boys should be virtually nonexistant, since they now have $100 change fees on everything except full Y abnd F class tickets.

Yeah but you forget about the throwaway ticketing. The other airlines charge more for a one-way than a round-trip, so they never know who's going to be throwing away the return.

 

[tadjr]

tadjr...

"assigned seat" - I book a flight a month in advance and I get an "assigned seat". Or are you saying that you all are misleading your customers who THINK that they have an "assigned seat" because the little "select your seat" window popped up when they made their reservation, so they "select" seat 12A, only to show up at the airport to find that they have been "assigned" seat 25B...last row middle seat??? Betcha they'd wish for open seating in that case.

I didnt say any such thing, you implied that people arent getting seats. I said I have seen it happen in a downsize situation and sometimes when people ask for a seat on the map it comes back unavailable to assign and they dont recheck their record and assume it was given to them when it wasnt. Since they might not be the only one requesting that seat at the same time or the computer might be processing someone elses request and it hasnt taken it off the map yet, they might not get it. That is why if they recheck their record later it will show if it was assigned to them or not then they can choose another seat. Just because you made a reservation doesnt mean you have "an assigned seat". They are two different things. That is why I didnt know why you were saying what you did since they are two different things and you were making it seem like one and the same. If you mean you make a reservation and think you have an assigned seat on the plane, you dont. You ask for a specific seat and then you have an assigned seat when its given to you. You print out your boarding pass and show up on time to board and you shouldnt have a problem. You dont ask for an assigned seat, show up and have a "you need a seat" boarding pass to get you to the gate, then yes, you might have a problem. They are two different things though.


"Boarding card" - can now be printed several days before the flight. This is to "help" the customer to avoid the long lines at check in. He prints his "boarding card" at home and shows up at the airport 25 minutes prior to the flight. Meanwhile, someone else checks in at the counter an hour early and and gets their boarding card.

If he printed his boarding card at home and ANY seats are available on the seat map, it will give him "an assigned seat number" and he is done as long as he gets to the airport in time to board. If he checks in at home and no seats are available, someone who checks in at the airport after him isnt going to get a seat either unless someone canx their reservation between the time the guy checked in at home and the one checks in at the airport. If the flight is full, its full. If the guy checks in at home 24 hours ahead of time and doesnt get a seat, when he checks in at the airport with an agent to get his seat and is put on the oversold list, he goes by time of checkin so he would jump ahead of the guy who checked in at the airport 1 hour ahead of flight time who also didnt have a seat.

Bottom line, you are trying to make it look like "assigned seating" would help Southwest avoid oversales. But the airlines who do assign seats still oversell theirs...they just put "gate check in required" on the reservation. If we want to be honest, why not put "you stand a good chance of not getting on this flight as it is already oversold and we are betting that the guy in 12A won't show up"? In fact, oversales on the big boys should be virtually nonexistant, since they now have $100 change fees on everything except full Y abnd F class tickets.

I wasnt trying to make it look like anything. Just trying to understand what you were saying with the terminology you were using since it didnt correspond with my experiences at work everyday. Inventory management has become very good at what they do most of the time. Very seldom in my station do we have flights overbooked by more than 10 and often times its in the single digits, yet, even with the nonrefundable ticket and change fees, people still refuse to canx their reservations and no show. Yes if everyone else who has a prereserved seat shows up, the last x amount of people (the oversales) wont have a seat assignment and we'll try to get volunteers. To avoid this though, there are several options. ASK for a seat assignment when reservation is made. If there is a seat available to assign, its yours. If no seat available, check in early at the airport since the rest of the seats are assigned day of departure starting 4 hours before a flight. If you didnt get a seat, it will be the last people to check in will be the ones who dont get seated. I never said or made it look like assigned seating would help WN avoid oversales and I dont have a clue where you think I said that. I was merely trying to figure out where you were coming from with "assigned seats" and boarding passes and reservations since you appeared to be using them all interchangeably. I think I understand what you were trying to say now, although they are 3 different things.

See above.

 

[KCFlyer]

tadjr - then why not put on the web site that when it says "gate check in required". there's a good chance you WON'T be getting on that plane? An oversale is an oversale - somebody is going to be denied boarding involuntarily....the customer bought a ticket that the airline sold them. They show up expecting to get a seat on the plane. Some people bought their ticket on another airline because they abhor Southwests open seating and felt a degree of "comfort" in flying on an airline that assigns seats. Should they be any less upset with one of those airlines who "assign" seats than they would be at Southwest...even if both flights in question had only one seat oversold and this lucky person happened to be the one to get denied?

I would also submit that it's not very "routine" for Southwest to oversell a flight by 53. Something tells me that there was a computer glitch somewhere along the lines in this case.

 

[tadjr]

First off- I do think the overbooking on the flight probably was a computer problem of some kind. When I first started back in '86, 53 overbooked used to be a common practice for all airlines. Some still do overbook by quite a bit on certain routes (LAS/LGA/JFK/SJU), but thankfully the inventory management has gotten a lot better and except for a downsize of equipment, I cant remember anything I've worked recently being overbooked by more than about 12-15 and those are rare occasions. Its usually in the single digits, but I know it varies by airline, city and flight, thats just my personal experience in working flights.
Secondly, just because you dont get a seat reserved when checking in online doesnt necessarily mean you have a good chance of not getting on. Is it a possibility? Yes. Does it mean you wont? No. There are notices of overbooking of flights on the website as well as on a ticket jacket if you have one of those in your hands from any previous flight that state what options are available. Again, from personal experiences of people checking in at home, I dont recall ever seeing anyone with a home printed boarding pass that says they didnt have a seat. Of course if the flight is full and they wait until 90 minutes before dept, there is the possibility, but if they check in earlier, they are going to get a choice of all the seats that were held for airport day of departure to choose from and like I stated earlier, they would go on the need a seat list ahead of someone who didnt have a seat and checked in at the airport 1 hour before flight time since they had an earlier checkin time.
I dont know where it was mentioned that just because an airline assigns seats means your going to get one or have a better chance of not being bumped just because some people got an assigned seat. If you dont have an assigned seat, you dont have one. I think the thought of some people was that if they book in advance on an airline that has an assigned seat offering and they GET an assigned seat, and show up on time, they have a better shot of not getting bumped vs someone who is on a carrier that doesnt assign seats and showing up hoping that 137 people havent checked in today before you. That is the main difference between the two. The option of getting an assigned seat in advance so you dont have to be at the airport 4 hours ahead of time to guarantee you arent number 138 to check in. You still have to be there before the time cut off for boarding or it doesnt matter when you checked in. You just have a better shot of not taking a chance on being bumped if you have an advanced seat assigned and check in as required. If you dont have a seat, it doesnt really matter which way you go, you dont have a seat. Most people though who think an advanced seat assignment makes a difference in their choice dont wait until the day of the flight to ASK for a seat assignment.

 

[skycruiser]

The difference is it's a heck of lot harder to get involuntarily denied if you have a seat assignment, boarding card and show up on time.

You said: And the funny part was...everybody who was bumped was sitting there, holding a boarding card with an assigned seat on it.

But then you said: They simply oversold the flight and gave someone a ticket that said "gate checkin required" on it.


I think I understand now.

W...If I buy a ticket on Delta, and it says "gate check in required" and nothing about "you may not get on this plane", should I feel any less "violated" when I am denied boarding?

And I'm not sure on Delta, but on Northwest, one can print a boarding pass - complete with "seat assignment" - 3 days before the trip. If a "gate check in person" shows up 90 minutes prior and gets his seat "assigned", and the person who printed the boarding pass from home gets there 60 minutes before then you've got two people, both holding an "assigned" seat. Which one should get involuntarily bumped? After all, the purpose of preprinting boarding cards from home was to bypass the counter check in.

"Show up on time" is a relative statement. Out of habit, I typically show up at the airport 90 minutes before my flight...even if I am holding an assigned seat. Anything shorter and I feel uncomfortable (delays in getting from the parking lot...long line at baggage check in, etc). Somebody else might feel that since they have their assigned seat, and boarding card they printed at home, then showing up 45 minutes before a flight is being "early". Bottom line, it ain't all that uncommon for someone holding an "assigned seat" to be bumped involuntarily.

Since your such a fan of "no-frills" LLC then why not suggest to the folks at SWA to take a lesson from Ryanair, Europe's most successful LLC, that could save them hundreds of thousands of dollars per plane in the purchase price and the maintenance? They are further reducing their operating cost by dispensing with the plane's window blinds, reclining seats, Velcro-anchored headrest covers and the seat pockets where customers normally find a safety notice and free magazines. The required safety notice will be stitched to the back of each seat. They may also start charging for checked-in luggage and switch to leather upholstery because it lasts longer and is easier and cheaper to clean. Basically SWA, aside from seat belts, environmental-control systems, lighting and the number of doors, could eliminate all their cabin items that are not covered by a an FAR even the one of the lavs, water, and peanuts could go. That way you would have yourself a darn tootin, honest to goodness, real to life LLC on your hands and since you seem to be against any kind of amenity that makes the flight more expensive I am sure you would enjoy the trip for the price of the ticket.

 

[KCFlyer]

Nah skycruiser...I'm happy with 'em just the way they are. I just don't see how "assigned seating" prevents any kind of oversales. Especially in these days, where the vast majority of seats sold on "major" airlines comes attached with a minimum $100 change fee...and if you don't call them prior to your flight, forfeiture of the entire ticket price. Seems that when all the seats are "booked" in advance, that flight should be shown as unavailable. I saw it on my Delta flight last week. Everybody had "assigned seating", I bought my tickets 2 weeks in advance and "took" the last two seats showing, but the flight was oversold.

 

[Busdrvr]

"Seems that when all the seats are "booked" in advance, that flight should be shown as unavailable."

In case you have never bought a full fare ticket, some tickets ARE fully refundable. Peoplw with more money than time often buy them. They may buy a ticket on an AMR, U, UAL, and DAL ticket all for the same day. If one airline has a problem, they go to another (especially if they are conncting flights through diff hubs...) Which brings up another issue, will your favorite airline buy you a tiket on the competition if they can't get you there?

 

[skycruiser]

Nah skycruiser...I'm happy with 'em just the way they are. I just don't see how "assigned seating" prevents any kind of oversales. Especially in these days, where the vast majority of seats sold on "major" airlines comes attached with a minimum $100 change fee...and if you don't call them prior to your flight, forfeiture of the entire ticket price. Seems that when all the seats are "booked" in advance, that flight should be shown as unavailable. I saw it on my Delta flight last week. Everybody had "assigned seating", I bought my tickets 2 weeks in advance and "took" the last two seats showing, but the flight was oversold.

Seat assignments really have nothing to do with overselling a flight. The flights are assigned an authorization level to book to. So if you have a 124 seat airplane that is authorized to 124 then, it can't be booked over 124. The reason flights get oversold is because every flight has a "no show" factor. If your same 124 seat airplane has a no show factor of lets say 15 people per day then the authorization level will be set to sell 139 seats. It is a delicate formula the airlines balance to try and fill all the seats without shorting themselves and also overselling the flight. While the public may hate oversells the airlines don't like doing it either do to negative customer perception and it cost them money. Basically seat assignments and overbooking are two very different monsters.

 

[KCFlyer]

"Seems that when all the seats are "booked" in advance, that flight should be shown as unavailable."

In case you have never bought a full fare ticket, some tickets ARE fully refundable. Peoplw with more money than time often buy them. They may buy a ticket on an AMR, U, UAL, and DAL ticket all for the same day. If one airline has a problem, they go to another (especially if they are conncting flights through diff hubs...) Which brings up another issue, will your favorite airline buy you a tiket on the competition if they can't get you there?

Bussie...if you had a dime for every flight I've ever flown for full fare, you'd be able to retire.

No need to rebook me on another airline...Southwest usually has most flights to any given destination from my airport - and a whole lot of flights TO my home airport. In fact...I recall my wife couldn't get to KC from ORD during the Thanksgiving snowstorm. A coworker over at MDW made it in...albeit rather late...but they DID arrive at MCI when AA and UAL were closed for the night.

 

[Busdrvr]

KC, I thought we'd beaten the "who flies into thunderstorms" topic beat to death months ago....

In any case, a touching story with respect to your wife and SWA getting her home. That and 5 bucks will by those 53 stranded folksat MDW a coffee at the airport to make them feel much better about missing a bought and paid for cruise....

 

[KCFlyer]

KC, I thought we'd beaten the "who flies into thunderstorms" topic beat to death months ago....

In any case, a touching story with respect to your wife and SWA getting her home. That and 5 bucks will by those 53 stranded folksat MDW a coffee at the airport to make them feel much better about missing a bought and paid for cruise....

Do youy drive a dodge Bussie? Because that was a great job at "dodging" that. First...it wasn't thunderstorms...in fact, it wasn't even snow...it had stopped much earlier in the day. It was equipment not being available. And it was the dead of winter. I wonder how many warm fuzzies someone flying on UAL from Chicago to Miami to catch their "escape from the winter" cruise found their flight cancelled and AA's flight cancelled...and couldn't understand why y'all wouldn't bus them over to MDW to catch a Southwest flight...