5&5 makes too much sense

[eolesen]

Bob regularly ignores the fact that airplanes can fly, and that a lot of the work related to them is entirely portable...

Bob also ignores the reality that AA has been reducing B check activity at high cost of living airports, and moving it to lower cost of living areas... They're not alone in that. How many airlines are still doing mods or overhaul on either coast?

Bob knows that that fleets are shrinking *and* getting younger. Not just at AA, but globally. But he ignores the impact that has on things like overhaul and reliability.

And lastly, Bob ignores the reality that general increases in technology are reducing the time required to diagnose and resolve break/fix situations...

It's not just a US labor issue, by the way. There are about 3,000 parked aircraft at the moment. Globally, that's probably 3,000 fewer A checks every night, and 800 to 1,000 fewer B checks. Every night. It's also a couple hundred lines of overhaul work. Gone. Do your own math on how many jobs are possibly related to that, but assuming about 10 AMT/OSM's per airframe at AA, that would be an estimated 30,000 jobs which are no longer needed at a global level.

SR Technics just closed down an overhaul facility in DUB, and they've laid off 1000 technicians (licensed and unlicensed) in the process. They also cut another couple hundred within the EU. ST Aerospace, same story. Haven't heard it hitting HAECO or AMECO, but it wouldn't surprise me if they've start feeling the pain as well.



I can see why some of you want the 5&5, but the reality is that 5&5's and VBR's cost money to execute, and are typically used only when the company is trying to reduce heads they can't otherwise shed via the contract or regular attrition.

So, rather than explain why it's good for the worker (which I agree it is), can someone please explain why any company should consider a voluntary separation program? It's not going to repair damaged labor relations, and in a lot of cases, the jobs "saved" by SIS or VBR wind up being eliminated in the next round of cutbacks...

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------ Olesen, Yes, Airplanes are portable, but your ignoring the fact that Airplanes are complicated machines! And complicated machines have a habit of breaking down in the darnedest places!------ East coast, and West. So AA needs someone in these places who knows how to fix them! -----They just haven't quit figured out a way to make an Airplane that can fix themselves! At least not yet!-----So if this trend of AA loosing AMT's to Utility Company's continues, where is AA going to find someone to fix these broken Airplanes ? ------Bob does have a point, to get AMT's to work, for the wages AA is paying, in places like JFK, and LAX, has gotten to the point of being almost imposable! But, AA would rather dump it's money into other foreign Airlines (JAL) rather than putting it's own house in order!------- Now all this may all sound a little simplistic, but in reality, there is more truth to it than a lot of people care to admit!

 

[The Goose]

<_< ------ Olesen, Yes, Airplanes are portable, but your ignoring the fact that Airplanes are complicated machines! And complicated machines have a habit of breaking down in the darnedest places!------ East coast, and West. So AA needs someone in these places who knows how to fix them! -----They just haven't quit figured out a way to make an Airplane that can fix themselves! At least not yet!-----So if this trend of AA loosing AMT's to Utility Company's continues, where is AA going to find someone to fix these broken Airplanes ? ------Bob does have a point, to get AMT's to work, for the wages AA is paying, in places like JFK, and LAX, has gotten to the point of being almost imposable! But, AA would rather dump it's money into other foreign Airlines (JAL) rather than putting it's own house in order!------- Now all this may all sound a little simplistic, but in reality, there is more truth to it than a lot of people care to admit!

MCI, there are plenty of Mexicans, Chinese, and Hondurans willing to do anything for a buck and many of these foreign MROs were started or at least advised by US citizens retired from the airline industry.

Never forget those who are pro-outsourcing are those who believe their jobs are not dependent on keeping work here in country but mistakenly think there's always going to be room at the "top" for them.

Eventually, not taking care of our country's business will work its way uphill - it'll take a while longer to get to the outsourcers but, rest assured, they're still going down unless they are truly part of the elite.

Be assured - nobody posting here is part of that elite.

 

[Joe Patroni]

Good luck Ken. Glad to hear it.

Still havent come across an ex-A&P on any street corners with a tin cup in hand.

So thats 60 cents an hour to start above your topped out wage at AA in Kansas City, and people like Eoleson, FWAAA and Frequent Flier seem to think the airlines will have no problem replacing us in places like New York, Boston, LA and SFO. Oh thats right, unemployment is @ 15% that means that nobody is hiring anywhere, nobody is retiring dying or leaving where they are because unemployment is so high!


So for guys with the skills we have they can start at wherever it is you are going at $33/hr vs AAs starting wage of $19/hr. Yep the scabs will pack up their tools walk away from $35/hr jobs to go and work for the glamorous airlines. They cant wait to work Thankgiving, Christmas and all the Holidays for at best half pay, they cant wait to get a whole one week of vacation a year and they will feel real secure knowing they can bank 5 whole days of sick time. Yep they'll be lining up all right, who knows maybe FWAAA, Eoleson, and Frequent Flier will use this opportunity to give a career in Aircraft Maint a try.

FWAAA, Eoleson and Frequent Flier are correct when they claim there are plenty of A&P mechanics out there, where they are wrong is thinking that they are lining up for jobs in the Airlines when they can make more elsewhere. And if they can find jobs where the starting pay is $13/hr higher where do you think they are going to go?

Everything you state here is true. When I was considering accepting the recall to LAX and SFO, the one (and only) thing that I was considered was what was AA offering me as far as employment. Well, AA offered nothing that would lure me away from my current job. Whille I may still have to work some holidays and weekends (just because that's the way the schedule works), I have a much better schedule for much better pay. For the skillset that one needs to be an A&P, AA (or any airline for that matter) cannot compete with industry on pay and benefits.

One other thing. With SJC closing and SFO being downgraded to a Class II (they are considered one station by the way), most of the guys there have major seniority and are too young to retire. When they hit the system, my guess is it's not going to be pretty.

 

[MCI transplant]

MCI, there are plenty of Mexicans, Chinese, and Hondurans willing to do anything for a buck and many of these foreign MROs were started or at least advised by US citizens retired from the airline industry.

Never forget those who are pro-outsourcing are those who believe their jobs are not dependent on keeping work here in country but mistakenly think there's always going to be room at the "top" for them.

Eventually, not taking care of our country's business will work its way uphill - it'll take a while longer to get to the outsourcers but, rest assured, they're still going down unless they are truly part of the elite.

Be assured - nobody posting here is part of that elite.

<_< ----- Goose, my comment went way over your head. Are those Mexicans, Chinese, and Hondurans in New York, or Los Angles?------- I know, yes, but do they work for AA? My point is AA will always need AMT's here in this country, and at high cost of living stations, example: JFK, LAX, SFO, AA will have to pay more for services there than say MCI, TUL, or DFW. That's just a fact of life!!!

 

[The Goose]

<_< ----- Goose, my comment went way over your head. Are those Mexicans, Chinese, and Hondurans in New York, or Los Angles?------- I know, yes, but do they work for AA? My point is AA will always need AMT's here in this country, and at high cost of living stations, example: JFK, LAX, SFO, AA will have to pay more for services there than say MCI, TUL, or DFW. That's just a fact of life!!!

I was thinking more along the line of overhaul rather than other services - not paying attention.

Regardless - AMR will always find some group to do what is necessary re: line maintenance and ramp services and will do it for absolute bottom dollar.

 

[Tbag]

That would be a concession worth striking for. How about instead of conceding future AMT pensions, and jobs for a 5 and 5, we fight to protect those who will be fixing the planes we fly on when we retire.

Great idea, but that would imply loyalty. Nah, can't do that either.

 

[Tex-Mech]

Great idea, but that would imply loyalty. Nah, can't do that either.

So we won't be looking for you on any picket line that might be needed.

 

[Runwaysticker]

So we won't be looking for you on any picket line that might be needed.

We need that guy on the picket he might scare a few scabs away, just look at his picture........

 

[Rogallo]

So we won't be looking for you on any picket line that might be needed.

TWU Picket line....never happen!!!

 

[Tex-Mech]

TWU Picket line....never happen!!!

I doubt it would happen too, but this poster is pushing for major concessions for those who are not eligible for a 5 and 5 package, and new hires. :down:

When called on it, he or she says "Great idea, but that would imply loyalty. Nah, can't do that either." :angry:

So if in the very unlikely event of a twu picket, and especially one that involves fighting for the future, we all know what side of the line this poster will be on. :down:

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob regularly ignores the fact that airplanes can fly, and that a lot of the work related to them is entirely portable...

Bob also ignores the reality that AA has been reducing B check activity at high cost of living airports, and moving it to lower cost of living areas... They're not alone in that. How many airlines are still doing mods or overhaul on either coast?

Bob knows that that fleets are shrinking *and* getting younger. Not just at AA, but globally. But he ignores the impact that has on things like overhaul and reliability.

And lastly, Bob ignores the reality that general increases in technology are reducing the time required to diagnose and resolve break/fix situations...

Aircraft are only portable when they are airworthy, thats why airlines have line maint. They try to put mechanics where the planes spend the most time on the ground so they can keep them that way.

There are many reasons why B-checks are done in certain places, the main reason is routing. B-cks are usually done overnight, they arent moving them from high cost to low cost, they put the B-ck where routing puts the aircraft down long enough and they have the facilities parts and manpower. JFK is slated to grow not shrink because thats where routing puts the planes and because of the number of trips they also have the parts and facilites to support it. Heavy checks and major mods were never done here in my years with the company.

Shrinking and getting younger, you say that as if its two unrelated things. If the fleet is shrinking, the oldest planes are the first to go, so of course the fleets getting younger than it was, even though all the planes in it are getting older.

And lastly has Eoleson ever actually fixed anything on an airplane? Sure technology does make some things easier, it also usually introduces new problems as well so until airplanes become as disposable as TV sets there will still be a demand for mechanics.

It's not just a US labor issue, by the way. There are about 3,000 parked aircraft at the moment. Globally, that's probably 3,000 fewer A checks every night, and 800 to 1,000 fewer B checks. Every night. It's also a couple hundred lines of overhaul work. Gone. Do your own math on how many jobs are possibly related to that, but assuming about 10 AMT/OSM's per airframe at AA, that would be an estimated 30,000 jobs which are no longer needed at a global level.

What makes you think that every plane gets an A-check every night? Even when aircraft overnight at maintenance stations they dont automatically get maintenance anymore, nevermind an A-check. (Admittedly its been a long time since I worked nights) Thats part of the cost savings, dont look so you dont see anything wrong.

10 AMTs per aircraft but like the company, you leave out the fact that we work on other airlines aircraft, so in reality that number is useless. Most MRO providers dont have any aircraft do you say "look at all those mechanics they have and they dont have any planes, they really need to get their labor costs under control"?

30,000 less jobs on a Global level? Even if your numbers were accurate thats probably less than the natural Global attrition rate.

Despite what you say the shortage is real and its going to get worse. The world’s commercial jet fleet is expected to more than double by 2025 — to 36,000 aircraft. Sure when they are new they may require less maintenance but they dont stay new very long when you fly the crap out of them.

So spin away. Starting pay for a liscened A&P at AA is less than $20/hr. If AA was confident that they could actually get someone in the door to replace their old top paid line mechanics with experienced new hires making $12/hr less with one week of paid vacation, zero sick bank, zero medical coverage for the first six months and zero pension liability for the first year (because the first year doesnt count) then they would have offered to VBR to every line station out there. The wage difference alone would cover the cost the first year. The fact is they arent out there and even in this economy attrition is outpacing the decline in demand. Boeing opening up another line in South Carolina, a new favored spot for snowbirds will increase demand for AMTs along the East Coast even though they dont have to hire A&Ps.

 

[AA767JET]

I totally agree with you Bob 100 percent and always did ,
I just hope when October 2010 bump and rolls start that AA doesn't flush out all there young next generation AMT's ..

 

[Bob Owens]

I totally agree with you Bob 100 percent and always did ,
I just hope when October 2010 bump and rolls start that AA doesn't flush out all there young next generation AMT's ..

We will see. I'm still waiting to see how the bump and roll for the Fall of 2008 pans out. My guess is most of the mechanics from SJC and SFO likely have two jobs and a spouse that works, like MCI they probably wont excercise their seniority.

Young next gen AMTs? The youngest we have is 30.

 

[Joe Patroni]

Many of them have wives that work, but not 2 jobs.