40 to 1

[MetalMover]

I will tell you the pattern that was established the "test" the AMT's had to take in the machine shop was rigged so you could never pass it even the machine shop mechanics admitted it and it was sanctioned by the manager there. Of course the great IAM looked the other way. Tell you what if I had been in the hanger if a machine shop dude that came out to work on getting his A@P I would have made his life a living hell. Thats where the plant maintenance guys were different that department didn't pull that crap when the bumping started like the machine and welding shops did. If you want to have a test fine but make it fair don't rig the system. 

I have known several mechanics who have tried to transfer to the engine shop years ago.....All failed the test even after giving certain study material.
This was a way to keep outsiders OUT! Nothing more, nothing less.
 
But the irony is that many Tulsans now find them working at line locations they once despised.
The chickens have come home to roost!

 

[Bob Owens]

What are you a socialist? Everbody is equal ? Why should a Maint control tech, who has been a MCT for 5 years be bumped down in seniority because you want to try something after working in the seat shop (example) for 20 years?

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal,,,,,,,".

Guess which Socialist that came up with that?

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

 
What are you a socialist? Everbody is equal ? Why should a Maint control tech, who has been a MCT for 5 years be bumped down in seniority because you want to try something after working in the seat shop (example) for 20 years?

 

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal,,,,,,,".

Guess which Socialist that came up with that?

Thank you Bob. I was not going to respond because his comment was asinine. I appreciate the support though.

 

[Overspeed]

 Uh okay

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

 Uh okay

It's an Overspeed original.

 

[bigjets]

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal,,,,,,,".

Guess which Socialist that came up with that?

 
They also considered a slave as three-fifths of a man. They were hardly perfect, besides I wasn't talking about him as a person, I'm sure he's a great guy. Just about careers. 
.  
 
Bob are you the union rep that proposed doing away with the company requirement for 2 years experience for a mechanic, there by denigrating the airline mechanic status. 

 

[Bob Owens]

 
They also considered a slave as three-fifths of a man. They were hardly perfect, besides I wasn't talking about him as a person, I'm sure he's a great guy. Just about careers. 
.  
 
Bob are you the union rep that proposed doing away with the company requirement for 2 years experience for a mechanic, there by denigrating the airline mechanic status. 

No, I'm the guy that bitched about it and voted against it on the Presidents council.
 
That little gem was the product of Bobby Gless and Don Videtich. Once again the company negotiated concessions that put them in a bind and they once again let them out of it.
 
I don't disagree with your position on allowing guys to transfer in with their seniority from other departments, I just objected to the position that somehow they are not of equal importance as people. I will do what I can to protect the profession, including going after our own who think they are defending it but in reality drag us all down by trying to dehumanize and degrade other professions. I've said it before. We live in a complex society that involves many tasks to keep things running smoothly, some tasks require skills, others don't require much skill, some tasks are unpleasant, but all are necessary and everyone who contributes to society should benefit from contributing by earning enough to provide for the basics on 40 hours a week. Unpleasant tasks should not also carry the burden of having unfairly low compensation. That's not saying we all should make the same, if what you contribute requires more education and more responsibility and more skills you should get paid more but what has happened in our society is we have allowed some to take an inordinately excessive amount out of society for what they contribute while the rest of us fight and attack each other for the scraps.
Seniority systems based upon time with a company do more harm than good to classifications as a whole, expanding Company time would not benefit our profession, it would only build more loyalty towards American Airlines.

 

[Kev3188]

^This^

Everyone should read Bob's post, then immediately read it again.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

No, I'm the guy that bitched about it and voted against it on the Presidents council.
 
That little gem was the product of Bobby Gless and Don Videtich. Once again the company negotiated concessions that put them in a bind and they once again let them out of it.
 
I don't disagree with your position on allowing guys to transfer in with their seniority from other departments, I just objected to the position that somehow they are not of equal importance as people. I will do what I can to protect the profession, including going after our own who think they are defending it but in reality drag us all down by trying to dehumanize and degrade other professions. I've said it before. We live in a complex society that involves many tasks to keep things running smoothly, some tasks require skills, others don't require much skill, some tasks are unpleasant, but all are necessary and everyone who contributes to society should benefit from contributing by earning enough to provide for the basics on 40 hours a week. Unpleasant tasks should not also carry the burden of having unfairly low compensation. That's not saying we all should make the same, if what you contribute requires more education and more responsibility and more skills you should get paid more but what has happened in our society is we have allowed some to take an inordinately excessive amount out of society for what they contribute while the rest of us fight and attack each other for the scraps.
Seniority systems based upon time with a company do more harm than good to classifications as a whole, expanding Company time would not benefit our profession, it would only build more loyalty towards American Airlines.

I never intended for my posts to be interpreted as somehow saying any title group was a lesser species. I merely wanted to point out that we all do different jobs and it takes certain qualifications to be an AMT. I also wanted to say how wrong it is to certify anyone as an AMT with the stroke of a pen when so many of us had to earn our way in the door. The TWU has and does allow this to happen. This is wrong plain and simple. Also the double standard. AMT must test to bump a machinist or welder. Machinist or welder does not have to test to bump an AMT. An overhaul AMT must pass a line test to bump the line. A line mechanic does not have to pass any test to bump and overhaul guy. If anything, it looks like overhaul AMTs are a lesser life form than anyone else. Thanks TWU.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

No, I'm the guy that bitched about it and voted against it on the Presidents council.
 
That little gem was the product of Bobby Gless and Don Videtich. Once again the company negotiated concessions that put them in a bind and they once again let them out of it.
 
I don't disagree with your position on allowing guys to transfer in with their seniority from other departments, I just objected to the position that somehow they are not of equal importance as people. I will do what I can to protect the profession, including going after our own who think they are defending it but in reality drag us all down by trying to dehumanize and degrade other professions. I've said it before. We live in a complex society that involves many tasks to keep things running smoothly, some tasks require skills, others don't require much skill, some tasks are unpleasant, but all are necessary and everyone who contributes to society should benefit from contributing by earning enough to provide for the basics on 40 hours a week. Unpleasant tasks should not also carry the burden of having unfairly low compensation. That's not saying we all should make the same, if what you contribute requires more education and more responsibility and more skills you should get paid more but what has happened in our society is we have allowed some to take an inordinately excessive amount out of society for what they contribute while the rest of us fight and attack each other for the scraps.
Seniority systems based upon time with a company do more harm than good to classifications as a whole, expanding Company time would not benefit our profession, it would only build more loyalty towards American Airlines.

Bob I read your post. I would like to hear your opinion on why seniority systems based on time with the company do more harm than good. Note I am not saying I disagree with your stance, I am saying I would like more clarification. 

 

[xUT]

Bob I read your post. I would like to hear your opinion on why seniority systems based on time with the company do more harm than good. Note I am not saying I disagree with your stance, I am saying I would like more clarification. 

 
I would like to hear that as well.
B) xUT

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Bob I read your post. I would like to hear your opinion on why seniority systems based on time with the company do more harm than good. Note I am not saying I disagree with your stance, I am saying I would like more clarification.

Question for you LaLi. In your opinion, should a 30 year stock clerk or fleet service (with no A&P license) be able to bump a 20 year licensed A&P mechanic and that person now become an unlicensed AMT? Just wondering.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob I read your post. I would like to hear your opinion on why seniority systems based on time with the company do more harm than good. Note I am not saying I disagree with your stance, I am saying I would like more clarification. 

Because it builds reliance and dependency on the company. People tend to be willing to give stuff up to preserve the Airline and the seniority they have acquired there. This is not as much of a factor in normal jobs where everyone works days with weekends and Holidays off, but in our industry Seniority means more than just layoff protection, it affects quality of life. The less dependent on AA and more portable you keep yourself the more likely you will be willing to not only fight to keep what you have but also demand more. I would rather see a restructure of the way we negotiate contracts that minimizes the importance of seniority without giving anything away such as substantial premiums for working weekends and odd shifts and to do away with all steps to top pay in the contract, when you get hired you are in the same boat as the next guy. We derive zero benefit from making a guy wait five to ten years to get up to our pay rates. Why have steps? Isn't the experienced mechanic who is hired off the street expected to work just as hard as the rest of us? The company gets to benefit from cheap labor that's all. We should structure our contracts to maximize pay and minimize the penalty from moving from one carrier to the next, portability gives us leverage at the bargaining table. If not for seniority how many of us would still be here at AA? I wouldn't. Seniority has forged Golden Handcuffs on us.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Question for you LaLi. In your opinion, should a 30 year stock clerk or fleet service (with no A&P license) be able to bump a 20 year licensed A&P mechanic and that person now become an unlicensed AMT? Just wondering.

I believe that a 30 year employee with no A&P should not be able to bump a 20 year licensed mechanic from an aircraft maintenance position.
 
Short answer. No.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Because it builds reliance and dependency on the company. People tend to be willing to give stuff up to preserve the Airline and the seniority they have acquired there. This is not as much of a factor in normal jobs where everyone works days with weekends and Holidays off, but in our industry Seniority means more than just layoff protection, it affects quality of life. The less dependent on AA and more portable you keep yourself the more likely you will be willing to not only fight to keep what you have but also demand more. I would rather see a restructure of the way we negotiate contracts that minimizes the importance of seniority without giving anything away such as substantial premiums for working weekends and odd shifts and to do away with all steps to top pay in the contract, when you get hired you are in the same boat as the next guy. We derive zero benefit from making a guy wait five to ten years to get up to our pay rates. Why have steps? Isn't the experienced mechanic who is hired off the street expected to work just as hard as the rest of us? The company gets to benefit from cheap labor that's all. We should structure our contracts to maximize pay and minimize the penalty from moving from one carrier to the next, portability gives us leverage at the bargaining table. If not for seniority how many of us would still be here at AA? I wouldn't. Seniority has forged Golden Handcuffs on us.

Which is EXACTLY why I keep telling American Airlines employees that seniority is a tool of manipulation. 
 
I think you just coined the phrase "Golden Handcuffs" congrats.
 
I am glad I asked for clarification.
 
This was an excellent post.