40 to 1

[Jager]

Haha.. Be realistic....
 
Any one with 40 years seniority in a work group isn't going anywhere.. Unless it's of course retirement or in the box...

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

[quote name="Thomas Paine" post="1040650" timestamp="1385305786"] You should know the answer to that. Because that's the way AA wanted it. They would rather that you leave than stay. [/quote]
I agree.
 
[quote name="Thomas Paine" post="1040650" timestamp="1385305786 The flip side is that most A&Ps had to have five years of experience before they could even get hired as an A&P, they get no credit for that time, do you think they would be OK with a guy who waited till they lowered standards to jump ahead of him in seniority? So it is what it is and there is no way mechanics would vote to let Fleet guys come in and bump them down in seniority. Many resent that they get to pick their vacation with their full seniority.  [/quote]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Sometimes American Airlines is not hiring mechanics and other title groups are the only way in the door. When I hired in they had two openings, Building Cleaner and Fleet Service. Some people hired in with A&P's believe it or not.  Are you saying people that hired on with an A&P and took the long path (hiring in another occupational group) should be penalized? They came in with the intent of being an aircraft mechanic.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]You’re trying to sell "I paid my dues". Guess what, there are a lot of ways to pay dues. Like buffing an airplane and abusing your shoulders and back to get into a position you went to school for. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Why are you bringing up credit? Why should you receive credit for work you did before getting hired on? What you’re saying sounds ridiculous from my point of view. I would like you to explain your position on this in more detail.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]The standards are not lowered if said employee has an A&P. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Your point is moot anyway. A Fleet Service Clerk (or anyone else) without an A&P cannot qualify for a licensed position.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]If the company allows someone to take a crew chief job or inspector job with no experience there is a major flaw that needs to be corrected and the answer is simple, apply minimum standards to qualify for those positions. Five years in the “craft” (I call it a trade but whatever) sounds reasonable.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Let's see if that attitude holds whenever they start wholesale laying off mechanics in Tulsa. I predict an MSP with less than 3 years will keep their job while 10 plus year mechanics hit the street.[/SIZE]

 

[Rogallo]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Let's see if that attitude holds whenever they start wholesale laying off mechanics in Tulsa. I predict an MSP with less than 3 years will keep their job while 10 plus year mechanics hit the street.[/SIZE]

 
 
Will I be able to downgrade to MRO mechanic....I mean MSP?
 
Thanks TWU......You Suck!!
Sign a card now!

 

[Kev3188]

I'm a fan of classification seniority. Here's why:

At NW, I had 3 dates on the ramp: PT (also my DOH), FT, and Lead. For FT, anyone with an earlier DOH could've bid it. They didn't. For Lead, anyone with an earlier FT date could've bid it & had it. They didn't.

So let's flash forward a several years: I've slogged my way through all the sh*t shifts, terrible days off, etc. and finally claw my way to a (relatively) decent spot. How is it okay that someone that passed on the position(s) the first time around now takes it, and cuts in line? It's not.

At least with classification time, people can move around, but those that are already there are not usually negatively impacted for shift bidding.

Just my .02...

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

In the 90s, the TWU decided to offer a mechanic upgrade program in Tulsa. They offered this to career cleaners, fleet service and stock clerks. These people would have never gotten their licenses on their own. In order to be an AMT up to that point one had to have gone to an A&P school, had military experience to justify taking the FAA tests or, in my case, both with the addition of 3 years experience in order to be hired by American. There were a few very lucky individuals that got hired as cleaners while they were going to A&P school and since the cleaners are title 1, they carried their seniority with them when they upgraded to AMT. If you had invested that much time and money into your qualification, then you would not like a stock clerk, cleaner or fleet guy being handed an A&P license, that they never would have gotten on their own, and then leap frogging you on the seniority list. It was bad enough we had career cleaners who took advantage of this and out bid most of us for crew chief and inspector jobs. One had so much seniority that he out bid everyone for a crew chief job as soon as he got his A&P. He had the least amount of experience of the people who bid, but he got it with his seniority. He is now an inspector and really has no idea how to do the job he is inspecting. This is not cool to those of us who paid our dues on flight lines and flight decks in the military or those who spent years working in general aviation for dirt pay to get their experience. It's bad enough that machinists and welders can bump an AMT but an AMT can't bump a machinist or welder. This is the thing that needs to be fixed. If a machinist or welder can go out to the hangar and learn the AMT job through OJT, then the reverse should be allowed as well.

The TWU decided? 
 
The truth is American Airlines needed more qualified (as in having an A&P) mechanics or they would have not allowed this.
 
You should be happy people got the initiative and opportunity to better themselves instead of being bitter because you feel like they got an easier path than you. Honestly it comes off as pretty petty.
 
"This is not cool to those of us who paid our dues on flight lines and flight decks in the military or those who spent years working in general aviation for dirt pay to get their experience."
There is that paid our dues line again. You act like the OJT paid topped out mechanic pay and that the employee in question did not already have YEARS with the company. Are you saying the employees had no formal training and only OJT? If so I would question the value of my A&P license because what you just communicated to me is you can take any unskilled labor and train them to be A&P's with OJT and no education. I do not believe this to be true but that is what you just communicated to me. Tell me I missed something.
 
When has a welder bumped an AMT? Welders are Title II.
 
"This is the thing that needs to be fixed. If a machinist or welder can go out to the hangar and learn the AMT job through OJT, then the reverse should be allowed as well."
I agree.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

The TWU decided? 
 
The truth is American Airlines needed more qualified (as in having an A&P) mechanics or they would have not allowed this.
 
You should be happy people got the initiative and opportunity to better themselves instead of being bitter because you feel like they got an easier path than you. Honestly it comes off as pretty petty.
 
"This is not cool to those of us who paid our dues on flight lines and flight decks in the military or those who spent years working in general aviation for dirt pay to get their experience."
There is that paid our dues line again. You act like the OJT paid topped out mechanic pay and that the employee in question did not already have YEARS with the company. Are you saying the employees had no formal training and only OJT? If so I would question the value of my A&P license because what you just communicated to me is you can take any unskilled labor and train them to be A&P's with OJT and no education. I do not believe this to be true but that is what you just communicated to me. Tell me I missed something.
 
When has a welder bumped an AMT? Welders are Title II.
 
"This is the thing that needs to be fixed. If a machinist or welder can go out to the hangar and learn the AMT job through OJT, then the reverse should be allowed as well."
I agree.

The truth is that it was all a joke. There was no "Formal training" to speak of. If you don't have an A&P (and you don't) you have no idea what it takes to get one. You also have no idea of how much responsibility comes with it. The TWU has tried to water down the AMT profession for years by bringing in the SRPs. Yes AA needed some A&P mechanics but they couldn't get them because we have always been the lowest paid in the industry. The A&Ps were all going to work for everyone else because they paid much better. So the TWU pushed for this program rather than push for higher pay. But like I said, there are things that need to be done to get an A&P and all we ask is that everyone do what is required with no shortcuts. What if there is a shortage of doctors? You want hospitals to make them from orderlies? I doubt it. You can't make a race horse out of a mule and you can't make an AMT out of just anybody. The TWU did allow AA to make SRPs out of people who worked in the credit union and Triad building though. This is one reason why we can not get along. You think anyone with a heartbeat can be an AMT and I disagree. If you do want to be an AMT then go to school and get certified. It is harder than you may think and I would bet that many of the upgrades from the TWU junior mechanic program would not have passed a real A&P school or written or practical test. But keep trying to belittle my profession. The TWU has trained you to do that. Just because they outsourced pushbacks to you guys doesn't mean you can do our job. Face it. You ain't qualified. Unless you go to school and pass all the tests you won't ever be qualified. Yeah I can understand why you want to be given an AMT position and bring your seniority with you so you can bump someone else out of a job. Someone who had to be qualified to get in the door. Your opinion of fair is very different from mine. You really missed your calling. You should have been a TWU guy. You could have been "Qualified" like Cirri was.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Imagine the feeling when you see an aircraft full of people take off after you have completely overhauled the right main landing gear. You pray you didn't miss anything. If you put a bag on the wrong airplane nobody dies. We can't make mistakes. Your argument is not a good one.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

The way I always looked at that was is the only employee group that benefited from any kind of company paid for tuition - was fleet service.  There was no equivalent programs for any other employee groups at AA to receive tuition reimbursement for additional training or education.

[SIZE=10.5pt]When did Fleet Service get tuition? That must have been before 2000 (the year I hired on). I assure you I was NEVER offered tuition or tuition reimbursement of any kind.[/SIZE]
 

How fair is that?

Not fair.  I still have yet to see proof that actually ever happened though.
 

Here I was paying my student loans off for my A&P - while some FSC who the only reason he or she is working at AA is because AA called before McDonalds did - is getting a free tuition?

McDonalds? I quit a job as an electrician to work for American Airlines because I heard they had good pay (eventually) and good benefits. My intent was to go into electrical maintenance. September 11th derailed that plan. Don’t paint Fleet like we are a bunch of uneducated McDonald’s fodder. The truth is there are a lot of tradesmen and degreed people in Fleet. Apparently the only way you can find self worth is to find a group of people and declare yourself superior.
 

I know of guys that went into the flight department, they were forced to actually quit the company first, then reapply.  At least you hang on to your company time.  All I am saying, is it goes both ways.  If I understand you correctly, you would allow a higher seniority guy from another department bump a guy who knew what he wanted to do out of high school - got the training/education for and secured a job doing - simply because his hire on date?

Provided they had an A&P license when they applied for the transfer then yes.
 

I still get pissed when I see these guys use their title seniority from these cleaner type jobs that for whatever reason were in the same title group as aircraft mechanics.  You know the types, 20 years as a cleaner then 15 years in A&P school - then they want to be an aircraft maintenance crew chief.

Giving people something simply because of their hire date has been going on for years. Look at some of the incompetent clowns they put in a crew chief slot simply because they have time. It was even told on this thread they put someone in an inspection position just because of his time even though he was obviously unqualified.

 

[Overspeed]

The truth is that it was all a joke. There was no "Formal training" to speak of. If you don't have an A&P (and you don't) you have no idea what it takes to get one. You also have no idea of how much responsibility comes with it. The TWU has tried to water down the AMT profession for years by bringing in the SRPs. Yes AA needed some A&P mechanics but they couldn't get them because we have always been the lowest paid in the industry. The A&Ps were all going to work for everyone else because they paid much better. So the TWU pushed for this program rather than push for higher pay. But like I said, there are things that need to be done to get an A&P and all we ask is that everyone do what is required with no shortcuts. What if there is a shortage of doctors? You want hospitals to make them from orderlies? I doubt it. You can't make a race horse out of a mule and you can't make an AMT out of just anybody. The TWU did allow AA to make SRPs out of people who worked in the credit union and Triad building though. This is one reason why we can not get along. You think anyone with a heartbeat can be an AMT and I disagree. If you do want to be an AMT then go to school and get certified. It is harder than you may think and I would bet that many of the upgrades from the TWU junior mechanic program would not have passed a real A&P school or written or practical test. But keep trying to belittle my profession. The TWU has trained you to do that. Just because they outsourced pushbacks to you guys doesn't mean you can do our job. Face it. You ain't qualified. Unless you go to school and pass all the tests you won't ever be qualified. Yeah I can understand why you want to be given an AMT position and bring your seniority with you so you can bump someone else out of a job. Someone who had to be qualified to get in the door. Your opinion of fair is very different from mine. You really missed your calling. You should have been a TWU guy. You could have been "Qualified" like Cirri was.

A lot of what you say is true except the TWU did not create the environment to hire SRPs or unlicensed mechanics. Lorenzo at CAL after BK in 1983 had unlicensed mechanics overhauling airframes and engines. How? Read FAR 145 and 121. An air carrier or repair station has the right to hire unlicensed mechanics as long as a procedure acceptable to the Administrator to verify airworthiness. QA can release the part, engine, or airframe. Look at AMECO they have only a handful of licensed mechanics on staff but they overhaul all of UA's wide bodies. The FAA makes the rules.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

 
 
In a perfect world, the company would offer the opportunity to everyone - for tuition reimbursement, and advancement.  However, within the confines of our unionized system of fairness, and protection - certain barriers and limitations were set up and allowed.  I have no aspirations of going into any other work group at this time, and if I did - I would be well aware of the consequences to my seniority.  A perfect example of the stupidity set up within our system, would be the loss of seniority for an AMT to move into tech services.  There is no logic, now your most qualified to take that job in tech services are discouraged.  What does that leave you with?   As Old Guy pointed out, we don't have much as it is - and now you want to walk on us some more, and you want us to help you screw us, and be happy about it?  Sorry for your plight; however, it's a little late in the game to be rewriting the rules to suit your desires.

Who's plight?

 

[AANOTOK]

Imagine the feeling when you see an aircraft full of people take off after you have completely overhauled the right main landing gear. You pray you didn't miss anything. If you put a bag on the wrong airplane nobody dies. We can't make mistakes. Your argument is not a good one.

Fleet is just a touch more than putting a bag on an airplane. There are issues which could cause someone to
"die"...but I digress...carry on!

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Using it to bid in a new title group, foolish and selfish!!

How is it foolish and selfish? I do not even work for American Airlines anymore and have no plans on going back. So explain to me the "selfish" part.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Haha.. Be realistic....
 
Any one with 40 years seniority in a work group isn't going anywhere.. Unless it's of course retirement or in the box...

I have seen it happen. 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Will I be able to downgrade to MRO mechanic....I mean MSP?
 
Thanks TWU......You Suck!!
Sign a card now!

I hope you don't have to.

 

[Thomas Paine]

A lot of what you say is true except the TWU did not create the environment to hire SRPs or unlicensed mechanics. Lorenzo at CAL after BK in 1983 had unlicensed mechanics overhauling airframes and engines. How? Read FAR 145 and 121. An air carrier or repair station has the right to hire unlicensed mechanics as long as a procedure acceptable to the Administrator to verify airworthiness. QA can release the part, engine, or airframe. Look at AMECO they have only a handful of licensed mechanics on staff but they overhaul all of UA's wide bodies. The FAA makes the rules.

Aren't you the one who goes after people for putting the blame elsewhere? So here you are claiming that Frank Lorenzo is to blame for the TWU being the first major Carrier to agree to super low paid unlicensed mechanics without a fight? You are blaming what Frank Lorenzo did in 1983 for what the TWU did in 1995. Wasn't Continental fresh out of their second Bankruptcy in 1995, a real one.and wasn't Lorenzo long gone?