2015 Pilot Discussion.

[end_of_alpa]

Dude....You are a STUPID, STUPID MAN.....  Here's what Jeff Koontz posted on C&R:
"You guys on the East really need to stop with the delusion. It didn't fly in the federal courts and it sure won't fly before the SLI panel. Both the AAPSIC and West committees embraced the Nic for a reason - the same reason."
 
Koontz is opining that since the courts TOLD USAPA that they must CHAMPION the NICOLAU LIST and since the AAPSIC & West committees are using the Nicolau list....it's likely that the Nicoau List will be used.
 
Will the Arbitration Panel use the Nicolau?  Who really knows?  No one is "leaking" anything yet.  10 business days of commentary, followed by 5 days of rebuttal.  Baring any changes, the list should then be published for public consumption.

Thanks for sharing. I didn't see it just what I was told. Then we will have to see the final result. I'll take your explanation at face value. It just seems to me the JK and EF are so close they appear to be "Siamese Twins".

 

[Beancounter]

Dude....You are a STUPID, STUPID MAN.....  Here's what Jeff Koontz posted on C&R:
"You guys on the East really need to stop with the delusion. It didn't fly in the federal courts and it sure won't fly before the SLI panel. Both the AAPSIC and West committees embraced the Nic for a reason - the same reason."
 
Koontz is opining that since the courts TOLD USAPA that they must CHAMPION the NICOLAU LIST and since the AAPSIC & West committees are using the Nicolau list....it's likely that the Nicoau List will be used.
 
Will the Arbitration Panel use the Nicolau?  Who really knows?  No one is "leaking" anything yet.  10 business days of commentary, followed by 5 days of rebuttal.  Baring any changes, the list should then be published for public consumption.

 
Agreed.  I haven't heard anything over here on the west.  Total crickets.

 

[Beancounter]

Stop your whining, you clowns voted for this POS JCBA.

 
Didn't you vote for USAPA?  That means you voted to stay on a bankruptcy contract where your narrow body captains made the same as Horizons Q400 captains!!!  Pot meet kettle.

 

[Claxon]

Attention: AWAPPA SHOPPERS! (Part II)

A couple of U-Turns ago, we sent one out called “Don’t Worry, Be Happy!” We still believe it. And we still believe that as long as ALPA is off the property, they can’t pull a “fair and equitable” on us and force us to share UAL’s Downsizing pain. Yes, you ARE protected by the TA. And nothing AWAPPA says is going to change that.

But our former MEC leadership is still in total denial. They act like ALPA is still the CBA. Former LAS FO Rep Ray Burkett is living in a dream world. This is the “Ray Solution:”

From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Scott Lillard" <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>; "CJ Szmal" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: U-Turn: ATTN: AWAPPA Shoppers!

Well this was what I has hoping to avoid!! The key here people is to set
up with UAL and get a prenup. Parker and team are not about to let u sap
ass block their deal with UAL. We need to focus on reaching out to as many
people in the UAL MEC as we ALL CAN. FENCE the prick in the east for 30yrs

Ray Burkett
C82 First officer Rep
Vice Chairman

Earth to Ray! Set up a “prenup” with UAL? Ray, ALPA’s not our CBA any more. And YOU aren’t the C82 FO Rep anymore. C82 doesn’t exist anymore. In fact, the entire LAS base isn’t going to last through the fall!

Sorry, Ray, but the UAL MEC isn’t going to give you or AWAPPA the time of day. They are represented by ALPA and ALPA is hanging it out if they negotiate with any group that isn’t the CBA. If they do and get caught at it, they could end up with a DFR that will make their $50+ million Duke-Spellacy settlement in the 1990s look like a parking ticket fine. The UAL MEC Merger Attorney is AWAPPA’s Jeff Freund. Can you say conflict of interest? How can he represent us and the UAL pilots at the same time? How can he give us any legal advice on defending the NIC while he’s representing UAL’s MEC? If a merger announcement is made, who do you think he will represent?

Enough of Ray’s fantasy union. At the bottom of this U-Turn is a summary of the first round of planned reductions over at UAL. The source is their internal employee “newsline.” We believe that the information is authentic. Note that the “first set of changes… will enable us to remove 30 of our B737 aircraft, the least efficient of our fleet.” At 6.5 crews (13 pilots) per aircraft, that’s a hit of 390 pilots on the streets. Proportionally, that would mean a furlough of about 148 LCC pilots if we were “fairly and equitably” sharing the pain.

The UAL internal forecast is just a blip on the radar screen when compared to the “What if” comments by Chicago Tribune reporter Julie Johnsson, written yesterday. According to her article (paraphrased, because of copy write laws – the link is: <http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-sun-united-tilton-mergermay11,0,1669926.story>http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-sun-united-tilton-mergermay11,0,1669926.story), the New “U” could park the entire 737-300 fleet (111 aircraft) of both carriers, producing over a billion dollars synergies.

At 13 pilots per plane, that’s an 11% reduction or 1443-pilot furlough from the total of approximately 13,000 active pilots. Proportionally, under ALPA’s “fair and equitable pain sharing,” the West hit could be about 192 furloughs.

So, does anyone really want a piece of that “fair and equitable” ALPA-pie or a Ray Burkett “prenup?” As much as you might hate USAPA, Ray, they do control both contracts. More importantly, they control the TA and its floor of 120 West planes and 202 East planes.

 

[Claxon]

Psychotic Ray cannot figure he was voted out of ALPA
And poor R's base had just been eliminated by Doug Parker.
Poor Ray was influenced by all the smoke piped up his keister by Dave Simmons.
Let's call him R all you LAA pilots.
Ray Ray, King of the vaporized c82

 

[Claxon]

The Furloughs and the Warnings

U turn speaks out on the US Airways (west) furloughs.
These furloughs are bad news. But look what caused them, no furlough protection in the TA and four other big mistakes by the MEC.
The Furloughs and the Warnings Frank Helton and I warned everyone about furloughs back in September 2005 when we were the only Reps to vote against the Transition Agreement. We told you our main reason: no furlough protection in the TA. So what did C-62 pilots decide to do? They recalled us because we voted against the TA! We were replaced by company/ALPA yes-men, Rick Pitt and CJ Szmal. So while you’re updating your resume, think of why you’re getting furloughed.

Guys, we had the leverage back then to protect everyone down to Dave O’Dell with a No Furlough Clause. ALPA National pushed the other West Reps and the MEC officers hard to cut the deal and we ended up with no furlough protection in the TA. The East had about 1700 pilots on furlough on their list, but most of them had other jobs and weren’t coming back. They had almost 200 retirements a year. We had no furloughs and only about 25 retirements a year. In the next two years, the company recalled everyone who wanted to come back and upgraded over 400 east pilots mainly due to attrition, but also with expansion by picking up more East-West flying than we did. We upgraded only 30 and hired less on our side. Frank and I wanted furlough protection. ALPA National and the MEC officers just wanted an agreement that protected the merger. Our Merger Attorney butted in with an August 29, 2005 email telling the MEC (not the Reps) that we needed an agreement more than the East did. The Reps only got copies of it by accident. On the no-furlough clause, Freund said: “Fourth, in an event, as I have explained, to the extent your objections are to the absence of a no furlough clause, I don’t think you will ever get one and I don’t think you want one.” These furloughs are bad news. But look what caused them, no furlough protection in the TA and four other big mistakes by the MEC.

The first mistake was not starting Section 6 in June 2006. Don’t blame the East for that one. Their MEC encouraged us to enter Section 6 with a resolution. But ALPA said NO and our MEC bought off on it. No telling what a Section 6 contract would have gotten us. Section 6 had leverage. JNC talks didn’t. We could have had a contract that the east might have agreed to before the NIC Award came out. Remember our “Leverage Lost” U-Turn? U-Turn warned you.

The second was not accepting the East’s 40% offer on the new B-757 slots in April 2006. That cost us 8 Captain and 8 FO slots, 16 furloughs. Instead we ended up with that useless B-757 LOU/IOU. Remember our very first email, before we used the name U-Turn? U-Turn warned you.

Third was not accepting the East’s 40% offer on the E-190. By turning that offer down, we lost in arbitration and got another IOU. If we had taken the E-190 deal, we could have gotten 40% of the Captain slots and with down-sizing, 40% of the FO slots. In the East’s 08-04 down-sizing bid, there are 229 E-190 positions in PHL/CLT. If we had agreed to East’s June ‘06 proposal, we would have locked in 40% of the slots or 91 fewer furloughs. Add those to the 16 B-757 positions and we would have only 68 furloughs, not 175. The additional 107 furloughs would have all come out of the East.

U-Turn warned about the dangers of not accepting the East E-190 offer as talks broke down in late June ’06 over the Dotter/McIlvenna rotating bidding plan. But our MEC had a better plan. It didn’t work. U-Turn warned you.

The fourth mistake was not pursuing the East-West flying dispute. Even the East Reps thought the company was violating the TA when they first started flying LAS-LAX turns. Their pilots refused them until ordered to by the company. We’ll never know how many furloughs a TA dispute could have stopped, but the MEC refused to file one.

Once again, U-Turn warned you. Guys, the AWAPPA leaders are the same ones who messed up when they were in office. It’s time to stop listening to them. It may be too late now, but if you don’t get your heads out of your sand and file grievances with the union that we’re stuck with, how are they going to know where we are coming from and what we demand? Just a reminder, with the ATA/AWA agreement (which was approved by the company) we had 18 months after the joint contract and single carrier which ever took longer. Delta received furlough protection for 24 months after everything is done.

 

[Claxon]

Average Annual Wages and Salaries - PILOT AND CO-PILOT PERSONNEL
NO ADJUSTMENTS MADE
1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015
American $ 112,190 $ 116,470 $ 131,651 $ 137,971 $ 130,099 $ 132,477 $ 123,244 $ 126,335 $ 130,019 $ 129,947 $ 137,734 $ 138,290 $ 138,743 $ 138,792 $ 137,482 $ 139,872 $ 139,963 $ 140,689 $ 147,312 $ 151,558 $ 218,486
Continental $ 90,461 $ 108,561 $ 124,152 $ 154,401 $ 161,395 $ 166,752 $ 163,624 $ 136,686 $ 140,028 $ 145,061 $ 128,724 $ 123,618 $ 133,318 $ 136,253 $ 150,211 $ 156,458 $ 178,727 $ - $ - $ - $ -
Delta $ 129,315 $ 134,016 $ 131,249 $ 121,885 $ 143,880 $ 150,549 $ 185,982 $ 173,365 $ 197,380 $ 209,330 $ 155,532 $ 127,268 $ 128,756 $ 125,616 $ 132,374 $ 142,801 $ 150,099 $ 158,227 $ 181,804 $ 193,555 $ 195,379
Northwest $ 154,635 $ 131,641 $ 126,107 $ 142,578 $ 128,100 $ 134,441 $ 138,427 $ 148,084 $ 161,931 $ 169,208 $ 143,618 $ 117,556 $ 132,009 $ 120,798 $ 146,675 $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ -
United $ 135,728 $ 146,249 $ 147,212 $ 135,886 $ 117,920 $ 132,126 $ 138,627 $ 184,429 $ 116,998 $ 132,010 $ 115,242 $ 114,985 $ 115,711 $ 119,460 $ 125,465 $ 124,228 $ 125,690 $ 143,076 $ 164,581 $ 185,430 $ 185,102
US Airways $ 127,154 $ 132,437 $ 135,623 $ 135,762 $ 128,722 $ 119,513 $ 157,090 $ 153,587 $ 154,638 $ 132,741 $ 120,124 $ 91,419 $ 103,487 $ 113,851 $ 111,329 $ 110,199 $ 109,535 $ 118,240 $ 121,069 $ 157,127 $ -
America West $ 77,093 $ 82,589 $ 86,289 $ 85,117 $ 75,045 $ 99,221 $ 99,301 $ 92,148 $ 92,111 $ 100,269 $ 101,279 $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ -
--sub Network $ 124,353 $ 128,147 $ 132,550 $ 134,301 $ 129,881 $ 136,773 $ 146,041 $ 150,515 $ 145,082 $ 150,572 $ 133,466 $ 120,889 $ 126,615 $ 127,031 $ 133,979 $ 136,685 $ 142,089 $ 144,378 $ 160,495 $ 175,846 $ 200,278
Southwest $ 107,109 $ 106,862 $ 110,905 $ - $ 109,958 $ 110,601 $ 112,259 $ 117,558 $ 130,069 $ 144,511 $ 157,420 $ 165,882 $ 167,112 $ 172,750 $ 176,726 $ 192,289 $ 203,196 $ 187,551 $ 194,598 $ 197,782 $ 230,626
jetBlue $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ 22,132 $ 56,644 $ 93,332 $ 93,532 $ 95,841 $ 96,734 $ 98,927 $ 105,893 $ 107,647 $ 124,680 $ 140,546 $ 139,744 $ 139,687 $ 147,109 $ 148,428 $ 149,341
AirTran $ 54,838 $ 65,770 $ 68,926 $ 75,335 $ 85,709 $ 89,593 $ 98,055 $ 95,809 $ 96,527 $ 99,311 $ 100,952 $ 104,265 $ 108,549 $ 128,225 $ - $ - $ - $ -
Frontier $ - $ - $ - $ 27,592 $ 29,091 $ 37,516 $ 102,065 $ 109,865 $ 110,417 $ 112,256 $ 99,879 $ 102,726 $ 108,905 $ 107,707 $ 96,119 $ 101,126 $ 113,250 $ 116,122 $ 116,366 $ 125,811 $ 160,260
Virgin America $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ 73,576 $ 63,993 $ 75,869 $ 92,070 $ 106,630 $ 134,541 $ 149,428
--sub LCC $ 104,933 $ 102,696 $ 90,662 $ 42,482 $ 94,394 $ 93,100 $ 103,964 $ 110,930 $ 118,997 $ 129,200 $ 134,414 $ 138,041 $ 140,335 $ 141,328 $ 147,776 $ 157,991 $ 167,612 $ 168,703 $ 175,162 $ 178,560 $ 201,392
Alaska $ 104,893 $ 106,838 $ 114,791 $ 52,344 $ 52,773 $ 132,140 $ 141,808 $ 151,734 $ 163,211 $ 160,974 $ 145,953 $ 129,620 $ 130,022 $ 132,877 $ 163,096 $ 150,061 $ 153,530 $ 155,024 $ 159,858 $ 159,839 $ 154,615
Hawaiian $ 74,565 $ 75,803 $ 79,762 $ 76,402 $ 1,859,096 $ 79,289 $ 90,924 $ 111,463 $ 105,289 $ 121,216 $ 132,782 $ 125,350 $ 126,812 $ - $ 117,351 $ 120,097 $ 117,354 $ 119,225 $ 134,667 $ 145,434 $ 149,362
Spirit $ - $ - $ - $ - $ 16,695 $ 71,178 $ 65,784 $ 69,585 $ 80,443 $ 82,994 $ 99,666 $ 107,439 $ 111,163 $ 92,420 $ 110,044 $ 113,327 $ 113,941 $ - $ 109,560 $ - $ 113,086
Allegiant $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ 47,559 $ 47,861 $ 56,870 $ 65,419 $ 83,839 $ 89,398 $ 87,993 $ 91,712 $ 94,616 $ 100,802
-- sub Other $ 92,009 $ 92,242 $ 87,567 $ 54,637 $ 52,872 $ 112,924 $ 120,544 $ 130,145 $ 135,633 $ 136,082 $ 126,383 $ 118,788 $ 117,076 $ 112,542 $ 132,725 $ 128,195 $ 129,544 $ 134,423 $ 133,292 $ 143,591 $ 133,429
Total All Sectors $ 122,484 $ 125,634 $ 128,213 $ 127,624 $ 122,144 $ 132,295 $ 141,267 $ 145,441 $ 141,393 $ 146,832 $ 133,283 $ 123,944 $ 128,890 $ 129,376 $ 136,943 $ 140,993 $ 147,171 $ 149,640 $ 161,910 $ 174,655 $ 194,919
Note: Shaded data means data appear questionable.
Data Source: US DOT Form 41 via BTS, Schedule P6 & P10.

 

[Claxon]

Bean counter- count reality of AWA. Bottom feeder for decades
Just the facts Beancounter. Do you count beans for Arthur Anderson?


IANTHE JEANNE DUGAN Staff Reporters of The Wall Street Journal
Updated June 7, 2002 12:01 a.m. ET
At "Andersen U.," the lush, 150-acre campus where Arthur Andersen LLP has trained tens of thousands of new recruits, there's a shrine to ethical accounting.

A display in the Andersen Heritage Center is devoted to yellowing press clippings of a long-ago campaign to clean up the accounting industry by Leonard Spacek, who led the firm from 1947 to 1963. In one, he accused Bethlehem Steel of overstating its profits in 1964 by more than 60%. In another, he bashed the Securities and Exchange Commission for failing to crack down on companies that cooked their books, saying that at best the regulatory agency has been "a brake on the rate of retrogression in the quality of accounting."

CALLED TO ACCOUNT

Have you reached a verdict? Who's winning the Andersen criminal trial? Vote to register your opinion. Remember, you can change your vote at any time as developments emerge.
Go to the Called to Account page for more coverage of the Andersen trial, as well as other issues stemming from Enron's collapse.
Did David Duncan fulfill government expectations? Join an online panel of experts to discuss his testimony in Andersen's trial.
Read key documents relating to the Andersen case, including the firm's document-retention policy and Nancy Temple's e-mail of Oct. 12. Learn more about Andersen's document-management prowess.
See a day-by-day recap of the trial.
Related article: How Andersen's Embrace of Consulting Changed the Culture of the Company (3/12/02)
Now, it's the quality of Andersen's accounting that has set off an ethical crisis. Since 1993, the firm has been embroiled in a series of major accounting scandals -- from Sunbeam Corp. to Waste Management Inc. to Enron Corp. Facing an obstruction-of-justice charge in a Houston federal court, Andersen itself is disintegrating and will likely be gone in a matter of months regardless of the verdict -- a humiliating end to a company that once stood as the world's largest professional-services firm and whose 85,000 employees last year generated $9.3 billion in revenue.

 

[N924PS]

Wow. Seven rapid fire posts from the former USAPA President.

it just doesn't get any better than this...

 

[traderjake]

His Mom won't let him out of the basement tonight. 

 

[EastUS1]

 
Didn't you vote for USAPA?  That means you voted to stay on a bankruptcy contract where your narrow body captains made the same as Horizons Q400 captains!!!  Pot meet kettle.

 
Apples versus oranges. USAPA's foundation was due to both accumulated disgust with alpa and in rational defense against the clinically insane concept of allowing new hires to usurp a full 17 years of worked for (and actually earned) seniority. It was enacted as a predictably temporary solution to an immediate obscenity. On the other hand?...PHX's 98%/"We're not worthy!...Would someone from management please at least autograph my swoosh-emblazoned knee pads?" vote in favor of the existing contract was, whether you yet realize it or not, nothing more than a vote to become forever mediocre (at best) in your esteemed "career expectations", and served to set nothing more of a future "bar" for management to do anything other than then laugh themselves to sleep over. The confluence of events present at the time of virtually total surrender by the "pilot" group was truly unique, and unlikely to ever again be duplicated. Management was able to easily envision easy multi-millions for themselves personally, enormous ego gratification via becoming "The Worlds' largest Airline", see a time where obscene profits, the likes of which had never before even been dreamed of in the airline industry arose.....and "you'se" utter fools let it all go for less than even the scraps any actually rational stray dogs would've actively fought for.
 
One of the "perks" of soon sinking into the retired old retired guy tar pit is the comfortingly attending thought of, as any even laughably supposed, collective work group? "Not my circus. Not my monkeys" anymore.
 
As always; I wish you and your family the best Bean.

 

[EastUS1]

Wow. Seven rapid fire posts from the former USAPA President.

it just doesn't get any better than this...

 
Have someone change your bib old man. It's clearly covered in untold depths of drool already.
 
For any/all readers: Should anyone ever find me in retirement with nothing better to do than come online to disparage and wish ill to those I proudly and happily flew with for decades...well...as an asked act of kindness, just drop me by the nearest veterinarian's office so I could be decently and properly put down and out of what would then necessarily be obvious misery.

 

[nycbusdriver]

 
Have someone change your bib old man. It's clearly covered in untold depths of drool already.
 
For any/all readers: Should anyone ever find me in retirement with nothing better to do than come online to disparage and wish ill to those I proudly and happily flew with for decades...well...as an asked act of kindness, just drop me by the nearest veterinarian's office so I could be decently and properly put down and out of what would then necessarily be obvious misery.

 
You said, my brother!  Amen!

 

[dariencc]

Don't let the hangar door hit you on the fanny as you exit Faux Friar.....buh bye!

 
Plenty of F/Os will be sorry to see busdriver go.  Can't say the same about you.  More like high fives in the crew room when you departed.
 
Note to readers:  I have confirmation that this doofus has been confiding to people that he is having a difficult time adjusting to life with no airline job.  How pathetic.

 

[luvthe9]

Didn't you vote for USAPA?  That means you voted to stay on a bankruptcy contract where your narrow body captains made the same as Horizons Q400 captains!!!  Pot meet kettle.

Way more to a contract than an hourly wage boy.......enjoy those 12 hour red eyes.