2015 Pilot Discussion.

[EastCheats]

How is the West MC funded?  
 
Will the outcome of the Addington appeal (at the 9th, before the same three judges.. the more things change, the more they are the same...)... Will the Addington appeal change the funding... or anything else for that matter?

How is the West MC funded? Hmmm.

Well, I can pretty much rule out the Nic fairy putting money under the pillow

The appeal? You mean the one which the West filed? I don't see any concern from our legal team.

 

[Claxon]

Your attempts of dividing the West pilots will backfire. Much like Mike Cleary's Cactus 18 fiasco which unified the West pilots and increased funding to AOL.
West pilots already made their choice, by a margin greater than 90%.

Choice is a good thing. To accept fences at Wye River was a choice passed on. The Nic would be in place today. west pilots would be getting 330 seats and pay, 320 upgrades. You chose not to accept it and followed a " lawyer" hired the year prior to the merger.
Those choices have cost you millions of dollars. The 330 denial will exponentially magnify the damages. A 2004 hire did not have much in the game. His gamble is costing millions.

 

[EastCheats]

Choice is a good thing. To accept fences at Wye River was a choice passed on. The Nic would be in place today. west pilots would be getting 330 seats and pay, 320 upgrades. You chose not to accept it and followed a " lawyer" hired the year prior to the merger.
Those choices have cost you millions of dollars. The 330 denial will exponentially magnify the damages. A 2004 hire did not have much in the game. His gamble is costing millions.

I'm not convinced any "choices" resulting in agreement made at Wye River would have been honored considering USAPA's DFR troubles. Therefore, I happy with our position going into the next arbitration.

 

[Claxon]

I'm not convinced any "choices" resulting in agreement made at Wye River would have been honored considering USAPA's DFR troubles. Therefore, I happy with our position going into the next arbitration.

Had you reached a JCBA it would have to have been.
Your senior pilots would have been in the 330 now. Those rates are unbelievable.
You now may miss them for years. If you are happy, you probably are very junior.

 

[Claxon]

Of course there are west pilots who were availed positions on the east equipment lists when they were furloughed. Some are on the 330 right now.This actually illustrates the much more valuable position of the east. west pilots remain east because of the cash.
At least ten west furloughed pilots remain on east lists at this very time.
These west pilots are enjoying 330 pay to the detriment of east pilots.
Who of the east pilots involved facilitated this windfall?
How and why are former america west pilots allowed to remain east after all west recalls?

 

[Claxon]

I'm not convinced any "choices" resulting in agreement made at Wye River would have been honored considering USAPA's DFR troubles. Therefore, I happy with our position going into the next arbitration.

And this clearly demonstrates your ignorance of the RLA and binding arbitration. Hence your tie purchase for a lost cause.
Marty capitalizes on this widespread ignorance.

 

[EastCheats]

And this clearly demonstrates your ignorance of the RLA and binding arbitration. Hence your tie purchase for a lost cause.
Marty capitalizes on this widespread ignorance.

I remember ignorance which led Bradford to law offices after binding arbitration and that uh-oh moment which led to attorney shopping to find a way to unbind themselves from the agreement. That "lost cause" may very well lead back to what you have been trying to avoid for so long...

A Conversation with an Attorney
KEEP THIS INFORMATION CONFIDENTIAL

On Saturday, June 9th in San Francisco I had a conversation regarding our case with Chris Katzenbach of Katzenbach and Khitikan, a labor law firm.

Katzenbach and Khitikan have done some NMB work primarily with the American Eagle pilots group and they helpd them set up a 501C3 non-profit format to hold the Eagle Pilots independent union which is involved in an organizing campaign to oust ALPA from that property.

In commenting on our case he said that as an outsider he really had to hand it to the opposing counsel in the final brief for the America West Pilots. He understands, in some respects, the issues involving airline seniority. He said however that to an outsider the America West brief was very convincing and easy to follow. This doesn't make it right or more fair, it's just an easier to follow and better presentation to follow than the Katz presentation. The America West brief, appears a least on the surface, to be more in line with the stated new ALPA merger policy. It ignores past president but if you only have the current policy as a point of reference then their argument seems more in tune with it.

Chris Katzenbach {the SFO attorney} feels that a direct assault on this {Niclolau} award in the courts is a looser. The courts don't want to be educated on the minutia of this case or any other complicated private matter. The courts only concern is if there is fraud or bribery or some other gross misconduct in the conduct of this arbitration. If pressed they {law firm} would take a case like that but he feels it to be a looser. It would also probably require a substantial down payment up front to pursue. By the way their fees are very reasonable, $275.00 per billable hour.

I next specifically asked him about the formation of a new bargaining agent {USAPA} as an avenue of advance to get around this award. He says that it is entirely possible. The key the courts look for is not the private squabbles, procedures and methodologies between unions and their nationals, the facts of the collective bargaining agreement. The CBA is the defining argument in a case to the courts. The Railway Labor Act /National Mediation Board procedure and policy above all governs.

"Could the America West pilots sue us" I asked, "if we pursue this course of action." "Yes", he said however Duty of Fair representation suits are losers, Katzenbach and Khitikan sued ALPA for the American Eagle Pilots over their current contract which among other things had a 20 year no strike clause. The contract was a negotiating committee cram down to keep from having the Eagle flying farmed out and allowing for the American equivalent version of "jets for jobs" and "flow through." Does this sound familiar?? As a result of this contract the Eagle pilots are trying to get out of ALPA.

Chris said the contract was truly piece of "****" but because it was negotiated by the duly elected negotiating committee it would stand in court. They lost big-time and that's that. So to answer the question, yes you can be sued but they must prove fraud or other really gross violations of law to have the suit stand up. However, he cautioned, the language you use in setting up your new union and how you go about talking and writing about your solutions to this award can be used against you. You need to stress he positives of the new union and not dwell on the award.

Don't give the other side a large body of evidence that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an arbitration, the Nicolau award, that in the opinions of most judges, should be allowed to stand due to no gross negligence or fraud.

In a ruling by the NLRB, not the NMB, in 1954, stated: Seniority status in mergers must be resolved between the the employer and the union not by the union unilaterally. 107 NLRB 837;225F.2nd.343. That is to say seniority lives in the collective bargaining agreement not inside the unions. It will cost some more money to find if there is an equivalent ruling in a case by the NMB, but Chris feels there most certainly is.

A study and roadmap of the case law based on the premise that a new bargaining agent can get around the award and make the Nicolau award moot will cost 5 to 7 billable hours, so about $1925 with this firm.

When I stated that our Chairman Doug Parker had expressed an interest in industry consolidation he replied "well you know this process can work in reverse". That is, if we had a merger with United then even before there was an arbitration process the United pilots would petition the NMB for "single carrier status" and we could find ourselves back in the same position as we are now, inside ALPA. The Nicolau award won't die until ALPA dies. If there are mergers down the road then the award can come back if ALPA does. Seniority lives in the CBA so you need a new contract to go with the new union to solidify your claims. Can something be put in the contact to protect these claims, I asked. "That question will require a lot of research". Katzenbach and Khitikan seem to be competent in this area although they are not experts in Railway Labor Act / NMB law. Chris stated that there are very few firms who specialize in RLA/NMB law, it's a very small portion of labor law pie.

This consultation is not free, they don't do that with this kind of case, but they have low rates ie, $275/hr. My name is the one given so I will pony up on this meeting and the firm will supply a resume of their qualifications to do this kind of law and a recap and their opinions on what was discussed and I will forward that information when I get it so that all can see what type of law firm this is and if we want to do business with them in the future.

 

[Claxon]

I remember ignorance which led Bradford to law offices after binding arbitration and that uh-oh moment which led to attorney shopping to find a way to unbind themselves from the agreement. That "lost cause" may very well lead back to what you have been trying to avoid for so long...
A Conversation with an Attorney
KEEP THIS INFORMATION CONFIDENTIAL
On Saturday, June 9th in San Francisco I had a conversation regarding our case with Chris Katzenbach of Katzenbach and Khitikan, a labor law firm.
Katzenbach and Khitikan have done some NMB work primarily with the American Eagle pilots group and they helpd them set up a 501C3 non-profit format to hold the Eagle Pilots independent union which is involved in an organizing campaign to oust ALPA from that property.
In commenting on our case he said that as an outsider he really had to hand it to the opposing counsel in the final brief for the America West Pilots. He understands, in some respects, the issues involving airline seniority. He said however that to an outsider the America West brief was very convincing and easy to follow. This doesn't make it right or more fair, it's just an easier to follow and better presentation to follow than the Katz presentation. The America West brief, appears a least on the surface, to be more in line with the stated new ALPA merger policy. It ignores past president but if you only have the current policy as a point of reference then their argument seems more in tune with it.
Chris Katzenbach {the SFO attorney} feels that a direct assault on this {Niclolau} award in the courts is a looser. The courts don't want to be educated on the minutia of this case or any other complicated private matter. The courts only concern is if there is fraud or bribery or some other gross misconduct in the conduct of this arbitration. If pressed they {law firm} would take a case like that but he feels it to be a looser. It would also probably require a substantial down payment up front to pursue. By the way their fees are very reasonable, $275.00 per billable hour.
I next specifically asked him about the formation of a new bargaining agent {USAPA} as an avenue of advance to get around this award. He says that it is entirely possible. The key the courts look for is not the private squabbles, procedures and methodologies between unions and their nationals, the facts of the collective bargaining agreement. The CBA is the defining argument in a case to the courts. The Railway Labor Act /National Mediation Board procedure and policy above all governs.
"Could the America West pilots sue us" I asked, "if we pursue this course of action." "Yes", he said however Duty of Fair representation suits are losers, Katzenbach and Khitikan sued ALPA for the American Eagle Pilots over their current contract which among other things had a 20 year no strike clause. The contract was a negotiating committee cram down to keep from having the Eagle flying farmed out and allowing for the American equivalent version of "jets for jobs" and "flow through." Does this sound familiar?? As a result of this contract the Eagle pilots are trying to get out of ALPA.
Chris said the contract was truly piece of "****" but because it was negotiated by the duly elected negotiating committee it would stand in court. They lost big-time and that's that. So to answer the question, yes you can be sued but they must prove fraud or other really gross violations of law to have the suit stand up. However, he cautioned, the language you use in setting up your new union and how you go about talking and writing about your solutions to this award can be used against you. You need to stress he positives of the new union and not dwell on the award.
Don't give the other side a large body of evidence that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an arbitration, the Nicolau award, that in the opinions of most judges, should be allowed to stand due to no gross negligence or fraud.
In a ruling by the NLRB, not the NMB, in 1954, stated: Seniority status in mergers must be resolved between the the employer and the union not by the union unilaterally. 107 NLRB 837;225F.2nd.343. That is to say seniority lives in the collective bargaining agreement not inside the unions. It will cost some more money to find if there is an equivalent ruling in a case by the NMB, but Chris feels there most certainly is.
A study and roadmap of the case law based on the premise that a new bargaining agent can get around the award and make the Nicolau award moot will cost 5 to 7 billable hours, so about $1925 with this firm.
When I stated that our Chairman Doug Parker had expressed an interest in industry consolidation he replied "well you know this process can work in reverse". That is, if we had a merger with United then even before there was an arbitration process the United pilots would petition the NMB for "single carrier status" and we could find ourselves back in the same position as we are now, inside ALPA. The Nicolau award won't die until ALPA dies. If there are mergers down the road then the award can come back if ALPA does. Seniority lives in the CBA so you need a new contract to go with the new union to solidify your claims. Can something be put in the contact to protect these claims, I asked. "That question will require a lot of research". Katzenbach and Khitikan seem to be competent in this area although they are not experts in Railway Labor Act / NMB law. Chris stated that there are very few firms who specialize in RLA/NMB law, it's a very small portion of labor law pie.
This consultation is not free, they don't do that with this kind of case, but they have low rates ie, $275/hr. My name is the one given so I will pony up on this meeting and the firm will supply a resume of their qualifications to do this kind of law and a recap and their opinions on what was discussed and I will forward that information when I get it so that all can see what type of law firm this is and if we want to do business with them in the future.

This is ancient opinion about un binding. The court rulings and MOU have come and gone and invalidated the west premise. Bradford, was a genius. Obviously he understood the RLA. He was dead on. Sure the west can sue, and sue they have- to no avail. Addington was the first of many many defeats.
Everyone knows this. Come May, EIGHT 8 years will have passed since the Nicolau Award.
That, is proof enough it did not bind anything.
You need to try better. Everyone here knows about all the court decisions that have happened since. The Nicolau Award simply needed a JCBA to bind it. It never happened.......

 

[traderjake]

Tell it to the Arbitration Panel..............

 

[EastCheats]

This is ancient opinion about un binding. The court rulings and MOU have come and gone and invalidated the west premise. Bradford, was a genius. .....

Bradford did not pass the genius test during his deposition on 9/18/13. Marty nailed him down and
Sly-manski saw the hammer. Marty Harper whacked the mole which exposed his ethically challenged views.

He certainly meets the qualifications and low standards to lead such a fine association as USAPA.

·Q.· ·So you agreed you can lie in campaigns.
·8· Where -- where else is it okay for a union officer to
·9· lie?
10· · · · · · MR. SZYMANSKI:· I object.
11· · · · · · MR. HARPER:· Well, you kick him, Pat, so
12· · · · that he can do that.
13· · · · · · MR. SZYMANSKI:· Form of the question.

·Q.· ·You can answer.
16· · · ·A.· ·Campaign material is pretty much open.
17· It's an open season on putting forth your views,
18· whatever they may be, to try to get elected.· And a
19· person could knowingly just stand up there and lie.
20· · · ·Q.· ·Pardon me?
21· · · ·A.· ·A person could stand up and knowingly lie
22· in a campaign.· It's been done before.·


·

 

[CAVOK]

It is interesting that the last eight years has shown that Nikolai was wrong. ALPA even went to a tribunal after its fiasco with US Airways. The growth has come on the East side. The movement/retirements and upgrades have come from the East. The profits have come from the East side, which was proven until the financial report were so embarrassing that the company decided to not report the earning of each side but to combine the financials, although I am sure that management knew exactly where the profits were coming from. I believe that the first year after the merger that the report was $600 million profit for the East versus a loss of $300 million for the West. One of the reasons that I have be grateful to USAPA and the intransigence of the company with contract negotiations is that the merger was never completed. The company was NEVER going to give us a contract that we could ratify. It just was not going to happen.
 
The new pay rates make the difference in pay almost inconsequential, especially when you consider the wide body pay rates. One of the reasons that I bid the 767 and 330 during the last eight years was so that I would never have to be paid lower than the West, but now the difference just seems so much slighter.
 
I just had my first year where I was back up to the pre-bankruptcy. The West has no idea, apparently, what our earning were since the early 80s. The West had to give 20% pay to the company in stock, mandatory, with their lower pay rates plus work days off in dispatch from the beginning. And many were being hired into prop jobs. All of that 20% was lost in their bankruptcy. You would think that they would be happier over their fate in the last two mergers. Wide bodies and worldwide flying await for those young and senior enough. 

 

[Claxon]

It is interesting that the last eight years has shown that Nikolai was wrong. ALPA even went to a tribunal after its fiasco with US Airways. The growth has come on the East side. The movement/retirements and upgrades have come from the East. The profits have come from the East side, which was proven until the financial report were so embarrassing that the company decided to not report the earning of each side but to combine the financials, although I am sure that management knew exactly where the profits were coming from. I believe that the first year after the merger that the report was $600 million profit for the East versus a loss of $300 million for the West. One of the reasons that I have be grateful to USAPA and the intransigence of the company with contract negotiations is that the merger was never completed. The company was NEVER going to give us a contract that we could ratify. It just was not going to happen.
 
The new pay rates make the difference in pay almost inconsequential, especially when you consider the wide body pay rates. One of the reasons that I bid the 767 and 330 during the last eight years was so that I would never have to be paid lower than the West, but now the difference just seems so much slighter.
 
I just had my first year where I was back up to the pre-bankruptcy. The West has no idea, apparently, what our earning were since the early 80s. The West had to give 20% pay to the company in stock, mandatory, with their lower pay rates plus work days off in dispatch from the beginning. And many were being hired into prop jobs. All of that 20% was lost in their bankruptcy. You would think that they would be happier over their fate in the last two mergers. Wide bodies and worldwide flying await for those young and senior enough.

A late arriving "attorney/pilot" showed up in 2004, never having any knowledge of what his predecessor west pilots endured. His lottery ticket fell to his feet a year later. He had no problems jumping a pilot with 19 yrs un furloughed time as he served one year. He risked it all and lost his lottery ticket in the process. Crying "integrity"

 

[CactusPilot1]

I'm not convinced any "choices" resulting in agreement made at Wye River would have been honored considering USAPA's DFR troubles. Therefore, I happy with our position going into the next arbitration.

I'll bet if they got what they wanted at Wye River, they still would have voted in USAPA. Remember, the reason they threw out ALPA had nothing to do with the Nic. Rigghhhht.

Judge Silver noted them changing their colors. Chameleons.

USAPAs Position is Unwise
USAPA has succeeded here but it is a Pyrrhic victory. As contemplated by the MOU,
in the very near future an election will take place and a new representative will be chosen by
all of the post-merger pilots.13 It is almost certain USAPA will lose that election. Once that
happens, USAPA will no longer be entitled to participate in the seniority integration
proceedings.14 The Court has no doubt thatas is USAPAs consistent practice USAPA will
change its position when it needs to do so to fit its hard and unyielding view on seniority.
That is, having prevailed in convincing the Court that only certified representatives should
participate in seniority discussions, once USAPA is no longer a certified representative, it
will change its position and argue entities other than certified representatives should be
allowed to participate. The Courts patience with USAPA has run out. USAPA avoided
liability on the DFR claim by the slimmest of margins and the Court has serious doubts that
USAPA will fairly and adequately represent all of its members while it remains a certified
representative.

 

[CactusPilot1]

It is interesting that the last eight years has shown that Nikolai was wrong. ALPA even went to a tribunal after its fiasco with US Airways. The growth has come on the East side. The movement/retirements and upgrades have come from the East. The profits have come from the East side, which was proven until the financial report were so embarrassing that the company decided to not report the earning of each side but to combine the financials, although I am sure that management knew exactly where the profits were coming from. I believe that the first year after the merger that the report was $600 million profit for the East versus a loss of $300 million for the West. One of the reasons that I have be grateful to USAPA and the intransigence of the company with contract negotiations is that the merger was never completed. The company was NEVER going to give us a contract that we could ratify. It just was not going to happen.
 
The new pay rates make the difference in pay almost inconsequential, especially when you consider the wide body pay rates. One of the reasons that I bid the 767 and 330 during the last eight years was so that I would never have to be paid lower than the West, but now the difference just seems so much slighter.
 
I just had my first year where I was back up to the pre-bankruptcy. The West has no idea, apparently, what our earning were since the early 80s. The West had to give 20% pay to the company in stock, mandatory, with their lower pay rates plus work days off in dispatch from the beginning. And many were being hired into prop jobs. All of that 20% was lost in their bankruptcy. You would think that they would be happier over their fate in the last two mergers. Wide bodies and worldwide flying await for those young and senior enough.

Are you really that stupid?

Nikolai? Yep (can't spell)

The profits came from the East side? (Just from the East side, sure)

I suppose US Airways came to Tempe, hired Parker and Kirby as a part of it's bankruptcy exit plan too.

 

[CAVOK]

Is Crew Sked blocking their calls lately? All the calls that I receive from them now show "Private caller" on the caller ID. Not only do I not answer private callers, I don't get the siren that I had for their number that will actually wake me when I am sleeping.