2015 Pilot Discussion.

Status
Not open for further replies.
EastUS1 said:
Whew! It's certainly difficult to argue against such a finely constructed, scholarly treatise as that!...Especially as so brilliantly concluded with "Chill out."  My only question is not if it obviously occurred, but rather the total volume of drool that necessarily hit "you'se" keyboard from that noble effort...? Ya' just can't make this stuff up folks....
Click to expand...
Usapians like yourself certainly showed us how not to run a union. All are good at is pointing fingers at everybody else for your failures or saying "look at what they have"

USAPA=FAIL
 
EastCheats said:
Usapians like yourself certainly showed us how not to run a union. All are good at is pointing fingers at everybody else for your failures or saying "look at what they have"

USAPA=FAIL
Click to expand...
 
Most amusing "Grasshopper." Is it not the long-established "spartan" philosophy that none should "live in the past"? The current debacle and decision is with us to consider as we speak, but if your sad joke of a "mind" can't focus on that, oh well. Likely best "you'se" just "Chill out" instead...."dude". ;) I'd not wish to see any permanently crippling damage occur to you from attempting anything approaching actual thought.
 
traderjake said:
The MEC was told by our own R&I Committee on two separate occassions the the plan needed to be frozen.
 
John Davis got his million dollar lump  sum and left us with next to nothing.
 
Guess you're incapable of learning from the past or understanding why we lost the pension.
Click to expand...
I hate to agree with this guy,
But.....

He is factual.......this is correct .....
 
EastUS1 said:
Most amusing "Grasshopper." Is it not the long-established "spartan" philosophy that none should "live in the past"? The current debacle and decision is with us to consider as we speak, but if your sad joke of a "mind" can't focus on that, oh well. Likely best "you'se" just "Chill out" instead...."dude". ;) I'd not wish to see any permanently crippling damage occur to you from attempting anything approaching actual thought.
Click to expand...
Grasshopper? Do you sit around on the computer and watch Kung Foo reruns on your VCR, Ace? Be sure to impress those ladies at the retirement home with Hai Karate to cover the smell of BS. :lol:

https://www..com/watch?v=jtwh3nQP5Uo
 
traderjake said:
Claxon - another dimwit who will never understand why he doesn't have a pension.
Click to expand...
The company chose not to adequately fund the pension... Another dimwit who could never imagine the company isn't his BFF.
 
Claxon said:
Obamacare will be their excuse and legal means to do so of higher end care.  We all can be a bum on the street and get insurance, but if you are gainfully employed you will be paying what turns out to be an amount on average that makes you basically self insured. 
 
Lets get protections in writing after a no vote.
Click to expand...
The protections are already in writing... Mandated negotiations with an arbitration backstop. Only after both of these fail can the company stop offering a plan that exceeds the threshold. Plus we have another Congress and a presidential election that may fix this yet. It is a far reaching tax that stands to hurt millions and Obama will not be there after 2016 to stand in the way of a fix.
 
Claxon said:
Your post on page 64;
 
"Davis gave the pension away months before Pollock had anything to do with it. We couldn't get the loan to get out of bankruptcy with the pension intact. The judge said he wouldn't take it by force, but his intent was clear. You wouldn't be here right now bitching about this 1.7 billion dollar raise had things come down any other way. How far up DiOrio's arse do you think you can get your head anyway?"
 
http://usairwayspilotssettlement.com/media/233903/affidavit_of_john_davis.pdf
 
What date was the pension given away?  (Rhetorical question)
 
Would you like to correct yourself regarding above post you made.  You lack creditability because of it. 
 
Your thoughts on this matter of you posting misinformation sir?
 
Your witness sir.
Click to expand...
I sat in a conference room with Pollock, several other MEC members and the players who brought the issue of the coming distress put on our DB plan that ultimately led to the company declaring the pension under funded and ERISA kicking in. Oh yes, John was in it up to his throat as were others with agendas that profited them at the expense of the rest of us. Inaction in this case put a bullet in our DB plan. All that was left to be done after that was collect their lump sums.
 
To everyone who reads this: I think Rick has captured the spirit of this deal; besides the (very temporary) – salary increase, this is as bad as LOA 93. I hope we all see through this “take it, or leave it” deal...no real negotiation, rather a “deal”.

Woody Menear

Woody,

How's it going? I wrote the piece below as I watched TV and I was wondering if it might be worth sending out to the pilots.

I trust your judgement. Being the author, it sometimes can be difficult to tell how it reads to others. I wrote it this way because I thought some of these guys just needed a different way to look at things. What do you think?

Cheers,
Rick LaMontagne


The following is a fictitious but plausible conversation between Mr. Parker, Mr. Kirby and Jerry Glass:

Parker: So Jerry how are things going?

Glass: Let me start off by thanking you for letting me have the opportunity to serve you again. I know you had your reservations about whether I was going to be able to get the results you needed especially considering my history with the pilots. Lucky for us, pilots have short memories. I am happy to report that it looks like we have been very successful in our negotiations.

Kirby: What do you mean by successful?

Glass: Well, let me summarize. We went into these negotiations with the idea that we wanted to keep the pilots in their bankruptcy era contract, known as the “green book,” but remove a few of the things from it that presented problems to us. We have been able to achieve this except that pesky scope clause. I actually thought I had them on the scope but unfortunately I couldn’t get them to bite. On the good side, as it turns out, we may not even need those scope clause adjustments because we achieved our low pay objectives with the 190 and I think you will be especially happy because you will be paying them only 319 wages for those new 321s you’re buying. I am especially proud of that one!

Parker: Wow that’s great! We have big plans for those 321s. Go on.

Glass: The agreement the APA is putting out for a pilot vote is largely everything we wanted from the beginning. We were able to eliminate the domestic/international division which would have been very expensive for us. Also, any implementation schedule for a variety of MTA provisions that we have been dragging our feet on goes away with ratification of this new agreement by the pilots.

Kirby: That is good. Many of those provisions are expensive for us and frankly we have not made plans for implementation based on your assurances from your last update. If we ever had to comply, we would be in trouble. (little chuckle under his breath)

Glass: No worries. Pilots are very predictable. I even got you a couple extra goodies that frankly even I was surprised the pilots fell for. First of all, I have inserted such confusing gray language concerning their medical plan that I guarantee they will be paying for their own medical insurance in a few years. And then to top it all off, I persuaded them to extend the agreement for another year!

Parker: So let me get this straight. You expect the pilots to pass a bankruptcy era agreement with even more givebacks and absolutely no enhancements during the most profitable time in our history? What’s the catch?

Glass: There is no catch. I offered them basically the same wages they earned in 2001 and they were thrilled. I didn’t even have to come close to the hourly wage you had authorized me to go to.

Kirby: Amazing! I will never understand pilots. Without giving up too many trade secrets how did you possibly achieve that?

Glass: Well first of all these guys didn’t hire my counterpart, a real professional negotiator. They think they can take a two day course and do what I do. Even that old ex-NMB arbitrator that USAPA tried to pass off as a professional negotiator was a joke. I heard he advised USAPA to vote for their first MOU. Too bad they didn’t listen. (laughing)

Secondly, I controlled the process. I set the dates, times and places for meetings and then I wouldn’t show up or come in late. (laughing) I laughed when their negotiating committee bragged to their pilots about always being available to negotiate. They just don’t get it.

I would pass them the most absurd proposals; confusing, only half written and with no substance. Worked like a charm. Every time we met they would come in with a proposal a little better for us. It was like they were negotiating with themselves. (smirking) All I had to do was say no every time. They gave away their bottom line and I didn’t even have to ask for it. Finally as a last ditch effort to save face, they said if only I would give them a minimum day, they wouldn’t even pass it to the pilots. The Board would just pass it themselves. All I had to do was say no again. (laughing)

And lastly, as I said, pilots are predictable. They don’t read fine print and they prefer to avoid conflict and just get things over with. Offer them a big raise and watch their eyes get big. The average line pilot will focus on only the hourly wage and not the total package.

Parker: Certainly seems like you have their number. But how do you know for sure it will pass?

Glass: Well, I have had my spies giving me feedback from the average pilot on the line and also their so-called town meetings. Based on their reports, it seems as though many pilots just don’t trust their own reps.

Kirby: No offense Jerry, but why would a pilot trust you, a guy who helped deceive them out of their pensions, over one of their own fellow pilots who is in the same boat?

Glass: I don’t know why but I am glad it’s true. But give yourselves credit too. Correspondence directly from management makes some pilots feel important and wanted. (laughing) It can go a long way in establishing a trust. (winking)

Glass leaves.

Parker: I sure hope he is right. We could be in some trouble if he is not. We will not be able to achieve any of the things we need in arbitration. I am also worried how Wall Street would perceive it. There are already rumblings about how this is going the way of United/Continental.

Kirby: True. We also could really get screwed with the Delta contract. I don’t like future uncertainties. The worst part would be that we could have 15,000 pissed off pilots on our hands.

Parker: This vote will tell us a lot about what to expect in the future with this new combined pilot group. A yes vote and nothing changes for us. A no vote and we will have to take these guys seriously. That would not be good. (frowning)

To be continued.



Of course the above conversation is not real but I believe captures the gist of dialogue these men must have shared. I wrote it less to convince people how to vote than to show just what these men think of us.

Parker and Kirby hate surprises. They didn’t like being surprised when the American pilots voted down their first MOU in bankruptcy. That threw them for a loop and we saw the result.

How this combined pilot group votes on a concessionary contract during the most profitable time in its airline’s history will dictate how this pilot group is treated by management in the future.

Everyone will have to make their own decisions but I would simply ask, “if not now, when?”

Rick LaMontagne

PHL AB C/O
 
luvthe9 said:
To everyone who reads this: I think Rick has captured the spirit of this deal; besides the (very temporary) – salary increase, this is as bad as LOA 93. I hope we all see through this “take it, or leave it” deal...no real negotiation, rather a “deal”.
Woody Menear
Woody,
How's it going? I wrote the piece below as I watched TV and I was wondering if it might be worth sending out to the pilots.
I trust your judgement. Being the author, it sometimes can be difficult to tell how it reads to others. I wrote it this way because I thought some of these guys just needed a different way to look at things. What do you think?
Cheers,
Rick LaMontagne
The following is a fictitious but plausible conversation between Mr. Parker, Mr. Kirby and Jerry Glass:
Parker: So Jerry how are things going?
Glass: Let me start off by thanking you for letting me have the opportunity to serve you again. I know you had your reservations about whether I was going to be able to get the results you needed especially considering my history with the pilots. Lucky for us, pilots have short memories. I am happy to report that it looks like we have been very successful in our negotiations.
Kirby: What do you mean by successful?
Glass: Well, let me summarize. We went into these negotiations with the idea that we wanted to keep the pilots in their bankruptcy era contract, known as the “green book,” but remove a few of the things from it that presented problems to us. We have been able to achieve this except that pesky scope clause. I actually thought I had them on the scope but unfortunately I couldn’t get them to bite. On the good side, as it turns out, we may not even need those scope clause adjustments because we achieved our low pay objectives with the 190 and I think you will be especially happy because you will be paying them only 319 wages for those new 321s you’re buying. I am especially proud of that one!
Parker: Wow that’s great! We have big plans for those 321s. Go on.
Glass: The agreement the APA is putting out for a pilot vote is largely everything we wanted from the beginning. We were able to eliminate the domestic/international division which would have been very expensive for us. Also, any implementation schedule for a variety of MTA provisions that we have been dragging our feet on goes away with ratification of this new agreement by the pilots.
Kirby: That is good. Many of those provisions are expensive for us and frankly we have not made plans for implementation based on your assurances from your last update. If we ever had to comply, we would be in trouble. (little chuckle under his breath)
Glass: No worries. Pilots are very predictable. I even got you a couple extra goodies that frankly even I was surprised the pilots fell for. First of all, I have inserted such confusing gray language concerning their medical plan that I guarantee they will be paying for their own medical insurance in a few years. And then to top it all off, I persuaded them to extend the agreement for another year!
Parker: So let me get this straight. You expect the pilots to pass a bankruptcy era agreement with even more givebacks and absolutely no enhancements during the most profitable time in our history? What’s the catch?
Glass: There is no catch. I offered them basically the same wages they earned in 2001 and they were thrilled. I didn’t even have to come close to the hourly wage you had authorized me to go to.
Kirby: Amazing! I will never understand pilots. Without giving up too many trade secrets how did you possibly achieve that?
Glass: Well first of all these guys didn’t hire my counterpart, a real professional negotiator. They think they can take a two day course and do what I do. Even that old ex-NMB arbitrator that USAPA tried to pass off as a professional negotiator was a joke. I heard he advised USAPA to vote for their first MOU. Too bad they didn’t listen. (laughing)
Secondly, I controlled the process. I set the dates, times and places for meetings and then I wouldn’t show up or come in late. (laughing) I laughed when their negotiating committee bragged to their pilots about always being available to negotiate. They just don’t get it.
I would pass them the most absurd proposals; confusing, only half written and with no substance. Worked like a charm. Every time we met they would come in with a proposal a little better for us. It was like they were negotiating with themselves. (smirking) All I had to do was say no every time. They gave away their bottom line and I didn’t even have to ask for it. Finally as a last ditch effort to save face, they said if only I would give them a minimum day, they wouldn’t even pass it to the pilots. The Board would just pass it themselves. All I had to do was say no again. (laughing)
And lastly, as I said, pilots are predictable. They don’t read fine print and they prefer to avoid conflict and just get things over with. Offer them a big raise and watch their eyes get big. The average line pilot will focus on only the hourly wage and not the total package.
Parker: Certainly seems like you have their number. But how do you know for sure it will pass?
Glass: Well, I have had my spies giving me feedback from the average pilot on the line and also their so-called town meetings. Based on their reports, it seems as though many pilots just don’t trust their own reps.
Kirby: No offense Jerry, but why would a pilot trust you, a guy who helped deceive them out of their pensions, over one of their own fellow pilots who is in the same boat?
Glass: I don’t know why but I am glad it’s true. But give yourselves credit too. Correspondence directly from management makes some pilots feel important and wanted. (laughing) It can go a long way in establishing a trust. (winking)
Glass leaves.
Parker: I sure hope he is right. We could be in some trouble if he is not. We will not be able to achieve any of the things we need in arbitration. I am also worried how Wall Street would perceive it. There are already rumblings about how this is going the way of United/Continental.
Kirby: True. We also could really get screwed with the Delta contract. I don’t like future uncertainties. The worst part would be that we could have 15,000 pissed off pilots on our hands.
Parker: This vote will tell us a lot about what to expect in the future with this new combined pilot group. A yes vote and nothing changes for us. A no vote and we will have to take these guys seriously. That would not be good. (frowning)
To be continued.
Of course the above conversation is not real but I believe captures the gist of dialogue these men must have shared. I wrote it less to convince people how to vote than to show just what these men think of us.
Parker and Kirby hate surprises. They didn’t like being surprised when the American pilots voted down their first MOU in bankruptcy. That threw them for a loop and we saw the result.
How this combined pilot group votes on a concessionary contract during the most profitable time in its airline’s history will dictate how this pilot group is treated by management in the future.
Everyone will have to make their own decisions but I would simply ask, “if not now, when?”
Rick LaMontagne
PHL AB C/O
Click to expand...
Can't we please stick with facts instead of fiction? Please?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

K
AA to Pay 30 Cents Less Per Gal of Fuel Than DL/UA in 2015
2 3 4
Replies
51
Views
8K
jcw
J
Crash Pad DCA
Envoy Air to close its New York base by end of the year
Replies
9
Views
2K
nycbusdriver
N
H
MIA-FRA
6 7 8
Replies
117
Views
15K
jcw
J
F
While DL and WN grow, AA continues to cut future growth
Replies
4
Views
2K
WorldTraveler
WorldTraveler
F
AA pilots don't like the new uniforms
2
Replies
24
Views
5K
UPNAWAY
UPNAWAY

Latest posts

Back
Top