2015 Pilot Discussion.
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A320 Driver
Veteran
- Aug 24, 2002
- 3,358
- 2,319
Davis gave the pension away months before Pollock had anything to do with it. We couldn't get the loan to get out of bankruptcy with the pension intact. The judge said he wouldn't take it by force, but his intent was clear. You wouldn't be here right now bitching about this 1.7 billion dollar raise had things come down any other way. How far up DiOrio's arse do you think you can get your head anyway?luvthe9 said:
A320 Driver said:
"We couldn't get the loan to get out of bankruptcy with the pension intact." or so you were told anyway. It's a given that at least some modicum of middle ground could've well been reached, but no matter afterwards. "The judge said he wouldn't take it by force..." Actually, he noted that he COULDN'T take it by force. Instead?...It was just given away by pathetic "politicians"/cowards in the middle of the night without anyone even being able to vote on the issue. None of us can ever know how events would've actually unfolded otherwise. Believe whatever you wish.
snapthis
Veteran
- Dec 23, 2009
- 4,236
- 6,907
January 28, 2015
West Merger Committee Update
We have been busy at work on your behalf over the past three weeks since the Preliminary Arbitration Award, and would like to update you about a few items.
WEST MERGER COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN
We are pleased to announce that we have officially appointed Captain Russ Payne as Chairman of the West Merger Committee. As most of you know, Russ served on the America West Merger Committee under ALPA during the America West / US Airways merger, and was a key participant throughout the Nicolau arbitration process and subsequent litigation. Given Russ' experience with seniority integration matters and his time-tested working relationship with our legal team, we believe Russ is the most logical choice to serve in this role.
THE NICOLAU AWARD
Many of you rightfully are bit fuzzy as to the status of the Nicolau Award after the latest iteration of court battles and arbitrations, and have asked us to explain how the Nicolau Award might become part of the new American Airlines seniority list.
During the SLI process ahead of us, each of the three merger committees (AA, East, and West) will likely present different ideas of how the final American Airlines seniority list should be integrated. Ultimately, it will be up to a panel of three highly-seasoned arbitrators to determine which portion(s) (if any) of each proposal meet the fair and equitable standard as they attempt to craft their award. An important part of this process will be determining the relative ordering of East and West pilots into that final American Airlines seniority list, and of course, it is for that reason APA established (and American supported) separate East and West committees for this process. Both the East and West committees will present their views as to the relative ordering of the East and West pilots, and it will be up to the arbitration panel to decide how that should be done.
Our position is simple. The pre-merger stand-alone career expectations of America West and US Airways pilots were set and measured in May 2005 when the merger of those two airlines was announced. From that point on, we began working for a new airline (LCC) with new career expectations, and agreed to equitably divide the benefits of our new airline according to a well-recognized, fair and equitable seniority integration process. Both pilot groups participated in the process in good faith and without a single objection to any part of the process itself. The process ended with a result, and that result remains the ONLY combined East/West seniority list ever reached by mutual East/West agreement, and it is the ONLY combined East/West seniority list ever accepted by US Airways. That seniority list, the Nicolau Award, can therefore be the ONLY fair and equitable basis for integrating US Airways pilots with American Airlines pilots. The fact that it was never implemented is of no moment; it reflected the balancing of pre-merger stand-alone career expectations of the two pilot groups then and it still does today.
On the other hand, the USAPA approach, in a nutshell, was best characterized by Arbitrator Javits during the Preliminary Arbitration when he asked this of USAPA Merger Committee Chairman Jess Pauley:
I guess the gravamen of the questions is are you then putting yourself in the place of Nicolau, are you the new Nicolau because you are proposing a list which may not reflect Nicolau's list?
As much as many of us might think the Nicolau Award is unfair to West pilots or that it does not properly compensate us for the past several years of undue hardship, we have always held fast to that result because it is the most reasonable, supportable, and just position. We have always believed that it would be very difficult to convince a federal judge or subsequent arbitration panel that we are entitled to MORE than Mr. Nicolau awarded us, or that we are better situated to determine a fair and equitable integration of East and West pilots than a neutral arbitrator. In short, it is our job to propose a fair and equitable solution, and as Judge Silver stated, [a]n impartial arbitrator's decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result.
Having explained the above, we would like to reaffirm these words from our previous update:
t is now more important than ever that we put aside all of this unpleasant history, but still learn and apply its lessons. Perhaps the largest lesson of the past several years is that the seniority integration MUST be resolved in the agreed-to process, and cannot and will not be resolved in cockpits and crew rooms. And although we have to expect that each committee will have widely disparate views about how our respective seniority lists should be integrated, those views should begin and end within that process. There WILL be an integrated airline at the end of this process this time, we will be sharing cockpits with our counterparts, and none of us wants to come to work in a divided, hostile work environment.
SENIORITY INTEGRATION ARBITRATION DATES
The attorneys have been working behind the scenes with one another and with the arbitration panel to establish hearing dates and hearing protocols.
The Protocol Agreement provides, [t]he arbitration hearing will be limited to 12 hearing days; provided, that with the concurrence of the Merger Committees and American, or at the request of the Arbitration Board, the hearing may be extended up to an additional four days.
Hearing dates have been set for June 29-July 2 and July 13-16, and scattered throughout much of this summer. The additional 8 hearing dates will likely be scheduled for early to mid-fall. There is a lawyers' only procedural conference in Washington, DC on March 6 where this and other matters will be discussed and resolved. The hearings will most likely take place in Washington DC, and will likely be open to all pilots to attend. We will publish more details once finalized.
MERGER COMMITTEE FUNDING
Although the privilege of having our own merger committee has created some newfound optimism for many of us, there is still a very long way to go until we reach a final integrated seniority list, and reaching that goal will not be inexpensive. The cost of putting together an integrated seniority list includes attorneys fees, expert witness / consultant fees, and flight pay loss and expenses for committee members. To give you an idea of the potential expense involved, the other merger committees have each budgeted $3-4 million for this process.
The West Merger Committee has three current / potential sources of income:
1. Leonidas LLC.
Your contributions to Leonidas LLC are the most reliable and accessible form of funding, and therefore the most crucial at this early stage. We strongly encourage all pilots to sign up for a Push For Justice commitment at the following link: www.thepushforjustice.com
Sufficient participation in the Push For Justice program will adequately cover the cost of seniority integration.
2. American Airlines.
The MOU and Protocol Agreement provide that each merger committee will receive one-third of a $4m reimbursement from the company ($1.33m for West pilots) if we are able to complete an integrated seniority list by December 9, 2015. APA has agreed to essentially advance each of the committees their share of these funds by means of allowing us to submit certain expenses to APA for payment. Payment of those expenses will be deducted from the $1.33m reimbursement that each committee is expected to receive. It is not clear what will happen if we cannot meet our December 9, 2015 deadline, although the company has unofficially indicated that the deadline would remain flexible so long as the parties continue to work in good faith to meet it.
3. USAPA.
Prior to APA's certification as our bargaining agent, both APA and USAPA set aside merger funds for use in seniority integration. APA properly set aside a fund for the American Airlines Pilot Seniority Integration Committee (AAPSIC) from dues money paid only by Legacy American Airlines pilots, and prior to its succession as our bargaining agent, before it owed any legal duties to US Airways pilots. USAPA ran a 0.5% merger assessment against all US Airways pilots, and that assessment paid into a merger fund containing monies from both East and West pilots. Although USAPA no longer has any authority to represent West pilots in seniority integration proceedings, it has refused to relinquish the West's share of the merger fund, and it plans to use West money to fund a merger committee that now represents only East pilots. It will therefore require successful litigation to cause USAPA to properly relinquish that money.
Some of you have raised questions about the ability to self-assess, and other related funding questions. We are currently doing our diligence to have those questions properly answered, to leave no stone unturned for funding sources. We will provide you with a more comprehensive update about this topic very soon.
We again thank you for your unwavering support, and look forward to updating you in the coming days.
Sincerely,
The West Merger Committee
David Braid Mark Burman Johan de Vicq
Eric Ferguson Jeff O'Connell Russ Payne
Jim Van Sickle Mitch Vasin Roger Velez
West Merger Committee Update
We have been busy at work on your behalf over the past three weeks since the Preliminary Arbitration Award, and would like to update you about a few items.
WEST MERGER COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN
We are pleased to announce that we have officially appointed Captain Russ Payne as Chairman of the West Merger Committee. As most of you know, Russ served on the America West Merger Committee under ALPA during the America West / US Airways merger, and was a key participant throughout the Nicolau arbitration process and subsequent litigation. Given Russ' experience with seniority integration matters and his time-tested working relationship with our legal team, we believe Russ is the most logical choice to serve in this role.
THE NICOLAU AWARD
Many of you rightfully are bit fuzzy as to the status of the Nicolau Award after the latest iteration of court battles and arbitrations, and have asked us to explain how the Nicolau Award might become part of the new American Airlines seniority list.
During the SLI process ahead of us, each of the three merger committees (AA, East, and West) will likely present different ideas of how the final American Airlines seniority list should be integrated. Ultimately, it will be up to a panel of three highly-seasoned arbitrators to determine which portion(s) (if any) of each proposal meet the fair and equitable standard as they attempt to craft their award. An important part of this process will be determining the relative ordering of East and West pilots into that final American Airlines seniority list, and of course, it is for that reason APA established (and American supported) separate East and West committees for this process. Both the East and West committees will present their views as to the relative ordering of the East and West pilots, and it will be up to the arbitration panel to decide how that should be done.
Our position is simple. The pre-merger stand-alone career expectations of America West and US Airways pilots were set and measured in May 2005 when the merger of those two airlines was announced. From that point on, we began working for a new airline (LCC) with new career expectations, and agreed to equitably divide the benefits of our new airline according to a well-recognized, fair and equitable seniority integration process. Both pilot groups participated in the process in good faith and without a single objection to any part of the process itself. The process ended with a result, and that result remains the ONLY combined East/West seniority list ever reached by mutual East/West agreement, and it is the ONLY combined East/West seniority list ever accepted by US Airways. That seniority list, the Nicolau Award, can therefore be the ONLY fair and equitable basis for integrating US Airways pilots with American Airlines pilots. The fact that it was never implemented is of no moment; it reflected the balancing of pre-merger stand-alone career expectations of the two pilot groups then and it still does today.
On the other hand, the USAPA approach, in a nutshell, was best characterized by Arbitrator Javits during the Preliminary Arbitration when he asked this of USAPA Merger Committee Chairman Jess Pauley:
I guess the gravamen of the questions is are you then putting yourself in the place of Nicolau, are you the new Nicolau because you are proposing a list which may not reflect Nicolau's list?
As much as many of us might think the Nicolau Award is unfair to West pilots or that it does not properly compensate us for the past several years of undue hardship, we have always held fast to that result because it is the most reasonable, supportable, and just position. We have always believed that it would be very difficult to convince a federal judge or subsequent arbitration panel that we are entitled to MORE than Mr. Nicolau awarded us, or that we are better situated to determine a fair and equitable integration of East and West pilots than a neutral arbitrator. In short, it is our job to propose a fair and equitable solution, and as Judge Silver stated, [a]n impartial arbitrator's decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result.
Having explained the above, we would like to reaffirm these words from our previous update:
t is now more important than ever that we put aside all of this unpleasant history, but still learn and apply its lessons. Perhaps the largest lesson of the past several years is that the seniority integration MUST be resolved in the agreed-to process, and cannot and will not be resolved in cockpits and crew rooms. And although we have to expect that each committee will have widely disparate views about how our respective seniority lists should be integrated, those views should begin and end within that process. There WILL be an integrated airline at the end of this process this time, we will be sharing cockpits with our counterparts, and none of us wants to come to work in a divided, hostile work environment.
SENIORITY INTEGRATION ARBITRATION DATES
The attorneys have been working behind the scenes with one another and with the arbitration panel to establish hearing dates and hearing protocols.
The Protocol Agreement provides, [t]he arbitration hearing will be limited to 12 hearing days; provided, that with the concurrence of the Merger Committees and American, or at the request of the Arbitration Board, the hearing may be extended up to an additional four days.
Hearing dates have been set for June 29-July 2 and July 13-16, and scattered throughout much of this summer. The additional 8 hearing dates will likely be scheduled for early to mid-fall. There is a lawyers' only procedural conference in Washington, DC on March 6 where this and other matters will be discussed and resolved. The hearings will most likely take place in Washington DC, and will likely be open to all pilots to attend. We will publish more details once finalized.
MERGER COMMITTEE FUNDING
Although the privilege of having our own merger committee has created some newfound optimism for many of us, there is still a very long way to go until we reach a final integrated seniority list, and reaching that goal will not be inexpensive. The cost of putting together an integrated seniority list includes attorneys fees, expert witness / consultant fees, and flight pay loss and expenses for committee members. To give you an idea of the potential expense involved, the other merger committees have each budgeted $3-4 million for this process.
The West Merger Committee has three current / potential sources of income:
1. Leonidas LLC.
Your contributions to Leonidas LLC are the most reliable and accessible form of funding, and therefore the most crucial at this early stage. We strongly encourage all pilots to sign up for a Push For Justice commitment at the following link: www.thepushforjustice.com
Sufficient participation in the Push For Justice program will adequately cover the cost of seniority integration.
2. American Airlines.
The MOU and Protocol Agreement provide that each merger committee will receive one-third of a $4m reimbursement from the company ($1.33m for West pilots) if we are able to complete an integrated seniority list by December 9, 2015. APA has agreed to essentially advance each of the committees their share of these funds by means of allowing us to submit certain expenses to APA for payment. Payment of those expenses will be deducted from the $1.33m reimbursement that each committee is expected to receive. It is not clear what will happen if we cannot meet our December 9, 2015 deadline, although the company has unofficially indicated that the deadline would remain flexible so long as the parties continue to work in good faith to meet it.
3. USAPA.
Prior to APA's certification as our bargaining agent, both APA and USAPA set aside merger funds for use in seniority integration. APA properly set aside a fund for the American Airlines Pilot Seniority Integration Committee (AAPSIC) from dues money paid only by Legacy American Airlines pilots, and prior to its succession as our bargaining agent, before it owed any legal duties to US Airways pilots. USAPA ran a 0.5% merger assessment against all US Airways pilots, and that assessment paid into a merger fund containing monies from both East and West pilots. Although USAPA no longer has any authority to represent West pilots in seniority integration proceedings, it has refused to relinquish the West's share of the merger fund, and it plans to use West money to fund a merger committee that now represents only East pilots. It will therefore require successful litigation to cause USAPA to properly relinquish that money.
Some of you have raised questions about the ability to self-assess, and other related funding questions. We are currently doing our diligence to have those questions properly answered, to leave no stone unturned for funding sources. We will provide you with a more comprehensive update about this topic very soon.
We again thank you for your unwavering support, and look forward to updating you in the coming days.
Sincerely,
The West Merger Committee
David Braid Mark Burman Johan de Vicq
Eric Ferguson Jeff O'Connell Russ Payne
Jim Van Sickle Mitch Vasin Roger Velez
A320 Driver
Veteran
- Aug 24, 2002
- 3,358
- 2,319
I will. What we need are facts and what we got from our reps was BS designed to get what they want. It's too bad that the reps cannot be held accountable legally and financially for the misinformation they spread.EastUS1 said:
A320 Driver said:
Amen to that brother! Especially given the sad truth that the "politicians" are rarely, if ever held at all liable; it's doubly incumbent on us all to actually THINK before casting votes for/against anything, to the maximum extent that we then reasonably can have at least a bit of power over our own fates, and that of the nowadays, apparently only supposed "profession" as well.
All my pompous rantings aside: I sadly expect this "offer" to be voted in. What I'd respectfully ask of all who'll be here for many years yet, is simply to start paying actual attention. Don't believe crew "News" sound bites, purple tutus and wholesale BS, and in the future, look to what's best for not just themselves, but ALL of their supposedly "fellow pilots"....
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
- 14,119
Maybe so, but Pollock pulled the trigger, not far, I learned from the LOA93 and MOU mistake, guess you haven't. Yea, those reps that say we should vote for this are just shoveling BS trying to get want they want, right?A320 Driver said:
Damn those reps, I say we believe in and trust the company.
How far up Munn's ars are you?
traderjake
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 5,669
- 9,308
The MEC was told by our own R&I Committee on two separate occassions the the plan needed to be frozen.
John Davis got his million dollar lump sum and left us with next to nothing.
Guess you're incapable of learning from the past or understanding why we lost the pension.
John Davis got his million dollar lump sum and left us with next to nothing.
Guess you're incapable of learning from the past or understanding why we lost the pension.
snapthis said:
Seriously, how many paragraphs do "you'se" ever need to further evidence yourselves as fully delusional nitwits? Sigh..Just keep on with "you'se" holy "Children's Crusade" and wait to see where that ever gets you. I strongly recommend not holding your breath for "St Nic" to ever be "coming to town" in the meanwhile....
Whatever will "you'se" do, once it's made abundantly clear that PHX wasn't truly the site of the Garden of Eden, that no one else cares at all about your perpetually adolescent angst BS, and that AWA's little contingent just "might" not be nearly so eagerly and "righteously" accepted into the larger fold as you fantasize?
Are any of you folks in PHX truly so incredibly stupid as to even imagine that the American pilots want you slotted with/above them on some nic basis?...Really? They don't. What even remotely possible reason would/could they have for doing what your childish imaginings wish? They gave you a "seat at the table" to protect themselves from a lifetime of lawyers from you fools, nothing more. Their next moves will be to advance their own over all others, and do their very best to crush "you'se" like bugs in the upcoming SLI. What's "you'se" brilliant plan for that obvious eventuality?...Just tell them how "The nic will be crammed down your throats!", since that worked so very well in your "knightly quest" against the east?...?
Umm...having studied some measure of teenaged child psychology; I'm guessing "you'se are still counting on a panel of arbitrators to hand PHX the nic?....This should be fun to watch.
The west merger committee are token village idiots and have no legal standing. The token west merger committee members are just fodder for APA's use when dfr 4 comes after a jcba useless dfr 3 attempt will fail.snapthis said:
american pilots will not go to arbitration.
John Davis retired well before US Airways Bankruptcy filings.
"I, Captain John Davis, state as follows:
1. I am a retired pilot, previously employed by US Airways. I was hired by US Airways
on July 29, 1968, and I was employed as a Captain from December 1, 1983, to the day I retired,
January 1, 2001."
US Airways filed for BK August 2002. The misinformation posted by two in the last two pages of this forum is not unusual for said posters who claim Captain Davis was involved with any pension give away.
Captain John Davis never bent over in front of management like apa wilson is.
http://usairwayspilotssettlement.com/media/233903/affidavit_of_john_davis.pdf
"I, Captain John Davis, state as follows:
1. I am a retired pilot, previously employed by US Airways. I was hired by US Airways
on July 29, 1968, and I was employed as a Captain from December 1, 1983, to the day I retired,
January 1, 2001."
US Airways filed for BK August 2002. The misinformation posted by two in the last two pages of this forum is not unusual for said posters who claim Captain Davis was involved with any pension give away.
Captain John Davis never bent over in front of management like apa wilson is.
http://usairwayspilotssettlement.com/media/233903/affidavit_of_john_davis.pdf
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