2015 Pilot Discussion.

[Metroyet]

^^^^^^^^^^^^
Exhibit #1. Negotiating moron.

Never even saw (much less addressed the question) "If we dont immediately give them what they want will they cease to have those desires, or will they cease to have billions in discretionary income?"

P.S. AWA had the $h!ty contract from its beginning. Talk about a glass house. Just sayin'.

A: for the millionth time, I am no now, nor have I ever been an America West Pilot. Never said they had a stellar contract however, if anyone had taken the time to look, you would have found work rules that absolutely blow APA and this new deal out of the Water. That ship has sailed.
 
As far as your question goes: If you give Parkirby 1.8 billion dollars IN LIEU of the 7 items their asking for then YES, THEY WILL CEASE TO DESIRE THEM. It's a cost/benefit analysis. Get it? They use logic. Sure, they'd like the 7 items but if you're willing to pay them 1.8 billion instead, they're ok with it.
 
And Yes, they will STILL have billions of dollars in profit that YOU WILL NOT GET ANY PART OF... PERIOD.  Understand?  You guys get into your mental "way back machine" and can't wrap your mind around the fact that it isn't 1983 and times have CHANGED.
 
BTW, as far as your "moron" negotiators go. Here's a little fact you don't seem to understand. You're NOT in section 6. Technically the discussions that have been ongoing haven't even really BEEN negotiations. The Company is not obligated to pay you an additional cent.  The ratified MOU and cost neutral backstop stripped away any leverage APA had going into this. APA had, (past tense) leverage when Parker put on his sheeps clothing and went over to them, hat in hand, and fed them the BAIT that they could throw out Horton. That was the leverage moment and the APA absolutely blew it.
 
You East guys NEVER embrace reality. At every turn, you've REFUSED to accept the full spectrum of the FACTS before you. You live in the past and you constantly OVER PLAY your hands.You are FUELED by jealousy of others and their careers/contracts.  You have a ridiculously inflated sense of self coupled with acute delusions of graduer AND  you are so scared to say "Yes" to anything you've reached a point of perpetual "Analysis Paralysis". You're your own worst enemies. The Facts and your careers speak for themselves. 
 
By all means. Vote however makes you feel good. But know this, Parkirby will 100% move on. They will not even look back. The pilot contract is just one of hundreds of puzzle pieces they are trying to assemble on a moving board. They will NOT care if you vote this down.

 

[EastUS1]

A: for the millionth time, I am no now, nor have I ever been an America West Pilot.

 
So why have you been (and remain) so obsessed with a thread that's presumably not now, and has never reasonably been any of your business? To establish even a tad bit of perspective here: Who do you work for and in what capacity?
 
The smell of your last burst of brilliance alone's indicative of a knee-pad and pom pom equipped, lowest echelon management shill/cheerleader, with a pretentiously self assigned personal knowledge of just how they supposedly think: "Parkirby will 100% move on. They will not even look back. The pilot contract is just one of hundreds of puzzle pieces they are trying to assemble on a moving board. They will NOT care if you vote this down."...?
 
No matter. Since you're evidently an expert on "Parkirby" mental processes; could you at least please explain the whole purple tutu business? Exactly what was the "thinking" behind this?
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVgjcyH4Ghk

 

[luvthe9]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2015/01/24/us-airways-pilot-leaders-harbor-doubts-about-proposed-american-contract/



US Airways Pilot Leaders Harbor Doubts About Proposed American Contract

 

[luvthe9]

Of All the Labor Problems in American/US Air Merger, This Is the Worst




http://www.thestreet.com/story/13003813/1/of-all-the-labor-problems-in-americanus-air-merger-this-is-the-worst.html?cm_ven=RSSFeed

 

[luvthe9]

http://www.thestreet.com/story/13013382/1/america-west-pilots-we-will-accept-seniority-ruling-at-american.html?cm_ven=RSSFeed




America West Pilots: 'We Will Accept Seniority Ruling at American'



That will be with NO NIC.

 

[Justme]

Of All the Labor Problems in American/US Air Merger, This Is the Worst
http://www.thestreet.com/story/13003813/1/of-all-the-labor-problems-in-americanus-air-merger-this-is-the-worst.html?cm_ven=RSSFeed

Yeah, it's a messed up situation for FCTIs, but if we are somehow able to come away at the end of the day with all or even most of our contract, which is superior in almost every way to LAA's, I can deal with being stuck in the mud for a while.

 

[luvthe9]

GOOD LETTER..................


Everywhere I go, I run into pilots that ask me how I will vote. Many of you have sent me your opinions or called expressing their intent to vote "yes" or "no" with your reasons. I have kept my opinions to myself since I realize that each pilot has his or her own reasons to vote based on their needs. If you are short timer, you just want the money now so you can get the hell out of here. I get it. I have only 18 months left before retirement.

But what is surprising to me is how much confusion and disinformation is spreading out there. Some of that disinformation, like Keith Wilson's letter is a deliberate attempt to hide or ignore certain facts and some is just confusion in a complex decision. It is not my intent to try to talk you into or out of your decision. I don't have that kind of persuasive powers anyway so I won't attempt it. But I can try to clear up some confusion so you can make a more educated decision.

Our two choices boil down to this. We vote "no" and Parker says he will still offer the same deal minus the retroactive pay back to December even if we go to arbitration. Regardless, we still get a raise now.

Here, there seems to be a great deal of confusion. Based on the language in the MOU, if we go to arbitration and ask for no changes to our agreement, then that's it. Nothing changes. The company cannot initiate a change on it's own. Only we can. We get a raise now and in 11 months, we get a much bigger raise equal to our peers and still keep our current work rules.

If we vote "yes" there are tradeoffs we need to be willing to understand and accept. We get a large pay raise with retroactive pay back to December 2nd but quickly fall behind our peers in benefits and pay. We will never catch up to them again. In addition, we lose some important work rules and benefits that offsets that raise and will would greatly affect our quality of life. That's it in a nut shell. Not very complicated when it is boiled down to simple facts.

Some dreamers have suggested that maybe we will be able to get those work rules and benefits back someday. Those work rules and benefits we lose will NEVER come back. They never do and never will. Why would we give them up now and expect them to come back later? We gave them up when the company was making record profits. That is a ridiculous assumption to think we would get them back later when profits are less than record setting.

So let's look at how those work rules will affect us in the future.

The 757's are getting old. They are also much less efficient than the current A321's by about 20%. Right now, the 321 can easily replace the 757's on domestic routes. As we speak, Airbus is launching the A321 neo which will match the 757's in range and be even more cost effective to fly internationally. They will not have the cargo capacity of the 757, but with crews flying them at A319 rates, it makes them much more cost effective.

By removing the separation of domestic and international operations, it will allow the company to schedule trips with both on the same trip pairing. Sounds OK, right? Maybe.

Let's look at losing average day. Why do we have duty rigs anyway? We have them to make the company more efficient in scheduling crews. With rigs, we don't fly a 1 hour leg and sit for 24 hours and then fly 1 hour back for a 2 day trip paying a total of 2 hours. That's the way it use to be in the bad old days. Unions negotiated duty rigs so it would make it too expensive for the company to schedule a trip like that, giving us more time off because we work more hours per day. Airlines have been pecking away at rigs since 9/11 and because the airlines were in desperate need, they did get some help. Now we are losing another of them, but at a time the airlines are making record profits. Why? It makes no sense! At a time of record profits, we are accepting a concessionary contract! Are we that desperate?

So, let's look at a trip based on these 3 items we are giving up. You can fly from CLT to PHL and sit for a 24 layover. The next day, you can fly PHL - DUB and sit 24 more hours and then fly back to PHL and then CLT for a grand total of 16 hours for a 4 day trip at 319 pay rates. To fly 85 hours, you will need to fly that trip 5 times for a total of 20 days per month. Pick any combination of domestic/international routes with the same results. How does that pay raise look now? The new planes, the domestic/international combinations and the Group 2 pay rates are all interconnected to make us a very very cost effective pilot group. Your sacrifice has allowed this to happen. Good for you! You're the best and can't complain because you voted for it. No bitching allowed.

Group 1 Pay.
American has no Group 1 airplanes and as far as the APA is concerned, it is a non-issue. Maybe not for long and they are very short sighted if they believe it is not in their future. So, let's take a hypothetical that is not so very far fetched. The former AWE A319's and 320's are at the end of their life span. Just suppose the company orders 195's to replace them? Look at the cost advantage the company gets by having mainline pilots flying for regional wages flying the less expensive 195's on formally 319 trips? Now take the other work rules and benefits away and we are even more cost effective. Why would Parker and Kirby fight so hard to keep Group 1 pay if they plan on getting rid of the 190's. After all, currently we only have 20 of them. How does that new pay rate look now based on Group 1?

Now, let's look at the medical plan proposal. Obamacare has hit everyone in the pocketbook. In 2018, it will hit the people like us and our families that went to school, spent tens of thousands of dollars in training, spent years working for sub-standard wages here or at a regional where you finally got the 'lottery ticket' at a major airline. One reason we spent so much money on training, worked so hard and gave up many years of higher pay was because we negotiated a better medical plan for security that someone that didn't sacrifice might have. Obama calls it a "Cadillac Plan." I call it a reward for excelling and sacrificing some of what I could have had so I could have that kind of security in my life. That was the tradeoff. We negotiated some pay so the company would offer the medical plan we needed for our security and that of our families.

Now, along comes Obamacare and poof, we are giving up that "Cadillac Plan" with no opportunity to change that outcome if Obamacare is likely changed or overturned. The company's answer is, 'we will get arbitration.' The fix will be in. How many arbitrations do we have to go through before we realize it's a rigged system? Giving that option up now, while we don't need to and while the company is making unbelievable record profits is not only folly, but in my opinion, criminal! That big pay raise you get will vanish like a puff of smoke with any kind of serious medical condition. I have been here long enough to have seen a great many perfectly healthy pilots suddenly without warning have a life and career threatening illness that change their lives and many were young men. Almost every pilot here for more than a few years will tell a story about how a family member was helped by the medical plan we earned and without it, would have faced certain financial ruin. Give that up now and ask yourself how that pay raise looks if something happens to you or a member of your family. If anything, we should be getting more benefits right now, not less!

LTD. The company is demanding the right to offset your wages or eliminate them all together if it, not you determines you can find a job in another field, even if you can't! What recourse do you have? None. You voted those rights away. Unbelievable!

I don't know Keith Wilson's motivation but based on the vague language in this proposal, the punishing work rule and benefit changes and the history of how Parker and Kirby operate, he is derelict in his duty to protect this pilot group from abuse. If he hasn't learned from our past experience, he should have learned from his current experience. Is his fix in? No way of knowing. Reminds me of another Union President that works hand in glove with our management to undermine the pilot group he was supposed to be protecting. For a Union President to cave so quickly and so completely makes me very suspicious of his motives.

One thing everyone needs to remember, this is NOT Section 6 negotiations. It is an agreement to take what the company is offering and accept what can only be viewed as a moderate pay raise, at best while losing the ability to receive future industry pay raises and some very important and earned work rules and benefits as a trade off. Again I can't stress it enough, it is not Section 6....it is an agreement only and should be viewed as such.

Everyone should open their eyes and realize that Parker and Kirby are not your friends. They are not offering this because they want good relations with their employee group. They have squandered every opportunity for a better working relationship with this pilot group. They did it with the certain knowledge of how it will affect the quality of our lives here and yet, they don't care. For them, it's about the numbers and is just business. They will now have 15,000 extremely unhappy pilots.

Some may believe that Parker and Kirby realize how we feel and are giving us the Delta rates now as appeasement. Well, here is a news flash. Under the employment agreement that Parker and Kirby have with AAG, for them to receive the same compensation package that both DAL and UAL CEO's and Presidents receive, they have to give us DAL and UAL wages. That public record was found in Form 8-K filings with the Security Exchange Commission. They want their money. They also want you to believe they are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. They also want you to give up important work rules in the process. Do you want to trade? That is the decision you have to make.

Think he was just being wonderful when he gave the flight attendants a raise after they turned down his proposal? Is it possible that after we turn this down, he will give us that pay raise anyway? He wants his money. His ego requires that he be equal with his peers.

The following comes from the Form 8-K filings in case you are too busy to read the entire link.

"The directors also consider Mr. Parker's commitment to maintain his annual target total compensation below his peers at Delta Airlines and United Airlines until the compensation payable to the Company's larger work groups are adjusted in line with such peers."

Here is the link: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/6201/000119312513466973/d640718d8k.htm

Pilots ***** all the time. What else can we do sitting for long hours in a cockpit. But in the old days, we bitched about small insignificant things that really didn't amount to much. Certain days off we didn't get. Scheduling. No jet way drivers. Lousy food, crappy hotels, short nights, commuting, complaining flight attendants, etc.

For the first few paychecks, there will be little bitching. Look at the nice pay raise. Then the new work rules will begin to be implemented and watch what happens. This will become a very very unhappy place to work. Do Parker/Kirby care? Not even a little. They have one requirment from you. Do your job or else and you won't like the "else." But American Airlines will never be a great airline. The New American will look very like the old American. All that BS about "greatness" was really a PR Campaign for the stockholders and the American pilots to believe that this time, things will be different.

They lied to the American pilots about how things would change here so they could realize their dream of running the World's largest airline. Think they are not doing the same to you now with this proposal?

Parker/Kirby/Glass have run the numbers and understand that if the vote is yes, they win big. If the vote is "no," they lose later. This is not about "the milk of human kindness."

I hope this gives you a clearer picture of the decisions you have to make. Each will decide for himself what he feels he needs. Choose wisely because this is your life.

Bill Glynn





.

 

[luvthe9]

It's probably me but I don't remember the APA telling us about this.........


.."Some may believe that Parker and Kirby realize how we feel and are giving us the Delta rates now as appeasement. Well, here is a news flash. Under the employment agreement that Parker and Kirby have with AAG, for them to receive the same compensation package that both DAL and UAL CEO's and Presidents receive, they have to give us DAL and UAL wages. That public record was found in Form 8-K filings with the Security Exchange Commission. They want their money."

 

[luvthe9]

"If we vote "yes" there are tradeoffs we need to be willing to understand and accept. We get a large pay raise with retroactive pay back to December 2nd but quickly fall behind our peers in benefits and pay. We will never catch up to them again. "

 

[EastUS1]

GOOD LETTER..................
.............

I hope this gives you a clearer picture of the decisions you have to make. Each will decide for himself what he feels he needs. Choose wisely because this is your life..

 
Even that garnered a "minus vote"? Seriously, some of the stupidest people alive anywhere must be right here on this very thread. There's just no kinder way to put it....Placing such a huge burden as the following on anyone must be hugely stressful for some: "Each will decide for himself what he feels he needs. Choose wisely because this is your life.."

 

[nycbusdriver]

I think there is a misunderstanding regarding going to arbitration and just saying:  "We like our contract as is" and then moving on unscathed.
 
The arbitrators are tasked with combining the three groups of pilots currently working with varying contractual conditions into one contract and do so IN A COST NEUTRAL WAY.  Putting the east and west pilots under Green Book AS IS will cost money....lots of it.
 
If we simply cry: "Green Book is it!" then who pays to restaff the east and west pilot bases with independent domestic and international crews, along with the independent reserves for each?  That will be a tremendous cost to staffing and crew flexibilty, but the Green Book has to survive COST NEUTRAL.  Guess who pays?  We agreed to cost neutral (to the company) arbitration, so we the pilots have to pay for the restaffing...not the company.  It will mean plenty of new pilots jobs (YAY!) and the cost neutral aspect means we get to pay them.  How?  That is what the arbitrators will decide, but it will NOT come out of the company's deep pockets, by definition.
 
Another point I would like to make is the seemingly "fair and balanced" opinions of the former APA president.  I read a very long diatribe written by a third person regarding the learned opinions of the former president.  One thing really stands out that demonstrates why the pilots are baffled at Parker's and Kirby's stance on this.  We at LUS have heard for years Parker telling us that, "when we have a Delta-type network, he will pay us Delta pay."  He never said he would compensate us the same as Delta, which would now entail profit sharing, work rules, retirement, etc.  He said "PAY us like Delta pilots."  What are the PAY rates he is offering?  DELTA plus!  PAY does not equal compensation.  He is being true to his word, we are just not hearing what he says.  We hear what we think he means, and then get all bent out of shape when he won't live up to those expecations.
 
Parker/Kirby almost without exception choose their words very carefully, and we see this all the time.  Why don't we learn to listen what is said, and not what we think is being said? 

 

[EastUS1]

Parker/Kirby almost without exception choose their words very carefully, and we see this all the time.  Why don't we learn to listen what is said, and not what we think is being said? 

 
Perfectly put nyc. However anyone votes is properly their own choice, but all concerned should at least think long and hard about which way they go. We'll be out of it pretty soon, but any contract accepted will have to be lived with for many years to come by most people here.

 

[EastUS1]

...I know that in your mind you're "the greatest generation" but ....

 
Not even close by whole light years. I've always respected my betters.  Men like these were the greatest generation, although, at least in your narcicisstic imaginings, it goes without saying that they certainly didn't/couldn't have any of that "childish fantasy" based, "right stuff"...Right? I mean really, who could even possibly possess any qualities that "you'se" clearly can't even imagine (with good reason) ever being present within your sorry self?
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPGq7IYQHCM

 

[nycbusdriver]

 
Perfectly put nyc. However anyone votes is properly their own choice, but all concerned should at least think long and hard about which way they go. We'll be out of it pretty soon, but any contract accepted will have to be lived with for many years to come by most people here.

 
I understand that, and I agree.
 
But it seems that so many are wailing about the company proposal as being concessionary, while missing the fact that the arbitration will also be concessionary as the more efficient portions of the east and/or west contract are paid for in order to bring everyone into the Green Book.
 
Vote YES.  Vote NO.  If you (not you personally....maybe I should say "youse").... if youse just stop to analyze the situation, youse are voting for concessions no matter what.

 

[nevergiveup]

Whatever the outcome, this is going to be one unhappy pilot group. I truly wonder if that is what the company wants.