traderjake
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 5,669
- 9,308
Phoenix said:
Did I miss you saying you were wrong about the West getting a Merger Committee?
2015 Pilot Discussion.
- Thread starter Eagle
- Start date
- Status
Did I miss you saying you were wrong about the West getting a Merger Committee?
Coalition of Flow Through Pilots suing now for representation. This is going sideways now that the arbitrators opened the door. More groups joining in. Gender and race related. This is going to go on for years.traderjake said:
Did I miss you saying you were wrong about the West getting a Merger Committee?
www.aaflowthrupilots.org
This is only the first of many, many more.
Donate today! Jam this deal for Marty!!
Wilder predicted this from day one.
Can you say six way?
- Feb 10, 2011
- 1,647
- 5,392
Yawn..Claxon said:
Is your vacation extortion fund drying up?
- Feb 10, 2011
- 1,647
- 5,392
Claxon said:
They can collect money for whatever reason they want. How much has USAPA LLC collected since decertification?Claxon said:
Working on a flow through commission check?
Get ready for some more court time. The attacks are coming from every direction now.CactusPilot1 said:They can collect money for whatever reason they want. How much has USAPA LLC collected since decertification?
Working on a flow through commission check?
Just in time for another massive east bid for the summer. Many more 330 captains again.
Thank Eric. You are Movin2phx for years.
traderjake
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 5,669
- 9,308
Claxon said:
Anyone with a lawyer can sue, Mike Cleary and USAPA have proven that.
Standing is another matter.
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
- 14,119
PHL pilots, below is a CLT update that went out today (1/12) we thought was worth republishing. Also, as a reminder, there will be a Q and A session with both Pauls this Wednesday (1/14) at the Airport Marriott from 9:00AM - 3:00PM followed by 2 negotiating road shows next week. Look for details on the road shows tomorrow.
Fellow CLT Pilots,
A lot has happened the last few weeks and we understand the frustrations of the pilot group regarding the lack of information during that time. Hopefully this letter will bring clarity and understanding to the situation that we are facing, and the reasons why certain decisions were made on your behalf. While there is a longer history that has brought us to this point, we will focus on the more recent events of the last month or two.
On September 15th, 2014 the NMB certified the APA as the collective bargaining agent (CBA) for all pilots of the merged New American Airlines. That triggered the 30 day MOU mandated JCBA negotiations period. During this extremely compressed schedule there were no meaningful negotiations between the Company and the union on any of the high value contract sections. Although there was debate on the board regarding the timing and strategy to address them, the Company refused to engage in discussions.
In early October, as the 30 day time limit was approaching, the Company informally approached the union leadership and suggested that the timeline be extended to allow the Flight Attendants to complete their ratification vote. The assumption was that if the Company was going to offer us something good and they did not want the Flight Attendants to know about it so as to influence their vote outcome.
There was considerable debate about whether to extend or not and if so how long. During that debate and eventual agreement to extend for 30 additional days, it was understood (by all parties) that any final JCBA TA would need to meet the board’s minimum standard and then be sent to the membership for final ratification. It was determined that 45 days would be required to properly complete this process. The BOD and the company agreed to this timeline. Curious how they were more than amicable when it benefited their agenda.
One of the reasons the BOD agreed to extend the timeline was to allow more time for the Company to engage us with the high value items so that we could work through our differences before arbitration was proffered. Again, there were no discussions what so ever on these items and only infrequent minor discussion on even the insignificant areas. On November 11th, the company passed their “comprehensive” contract offer to the APA. This was comprised of a simple email with a Section 3 Pay offer of the current Delta pay scales plus 3% and seven concessions in return; one of them being the attempted Scope grab.
In a face to face meeting with Mr. Parker and a subsequent letter signed by all 22 BOD members (and 3 new officer elects) it was made abundantly clear that the Scope issue was not going to happen. Scope along with LOS were the largest vocal groups and it was clear to the company that those items would need to be addressed. In their typical style they dropped the scope ask but tried to slip in an even more onerous one that was not so obvious. Scope Chairman, Tim Hamel quickly caught that one and it was also dropped.
The company in their typical style now judges the pilot groups appetite for ratification and decides to throw a small bone to the LOS group of two years added to their LOS. Again, testing the water to see if they have just enough support for a yes vote to pass. At this point the BOD is publicly divided 12-10 . The 12 (CLT included) felt that there is and should be more available and the 10 disagree (no tangible explanations offered). There was a concerted effort of the 12 to seek the support and endorsement of the group of 10, for the subsequent December 17th APA Comprehensive Counter Proposal, but they would have nothing to do with it.
This proposal originally had two pay options and 11 small QOL asks from APA. Four of those asks were granting the company’s asks with refinement or clarification. The others were 321 pay, LOS increase, Min Day, “Promptly Report” language, Vacancy Bids, eliminate LTD 80% earnings rule and retaining the already agreed to TA’s and Dec. 2nd Retro. So in essence we were willing to give them the big items they wanted in return for some items we wanted.
The pay options were; accept the Company’s pay rate with profit sharing or accept the company’s pay rate with a 4% increase and we will forego profit sharing. Since we were told by the group of 10 that the company would never agree to an additional 4% pay increase, the next day we reconsidered our tasking order and modified it to include an additional option to take the Company’s pay proposal and add a stipulation that it would remain 3% above Delta’s by having a yearly comparison. This was just putting into writing what Doug had said many times in public before that “he had no problem paying us Delta plus 3%” and that “it was the right thing to do”. Again, the group of 10 would have nothing to do with it. The offer was presented to the Company and the following day they announced a companywide 4% pay raise and proffered arbitration for the pilots. This shows the extent that they will go to save face and assert that they did not move off their position. It was also a strategic move to tip the scales towards moving the 12 to allow the offer to go to the membership to vote. It worked, the pilots responded exactly in accordance with the company (Jerry Glass scripted) strategy and responded to the money. We liken it to throwing the bag of money off the Brinks truck onto to the downtown street during rush hour. We don't know why they are so ashamed of being perceived as working with us. It is what "great" companies do.
At the next SBOD meeting, much to our surprise, the group of 10 indicated that they would like the BOD to propose singling out the Min Day (Long Rate Rig) issue and see if we could get the Company to change their “just say no” position. The proposal had the caveat that we agree to ratify the TA at the board level. Although still lacking in several areas compared to Delta combined with the fact it may be viewed as controversial by the pilot group, the majority of the BOD (18 to 4) decided to proceed with it. The Company rejected it citing valuations. Had they accepted the offer, the JCBA would have been concluded, retro to Dec. 2nd would be captured, the Company could tell the investment community that they had a BOD approved and ratified contract. As a note of interest, the APA valuations and the company valuations varied greatly. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink! Their arrogance may cost them dearly. It turns out that there is a silver lining.
In hindsight, in the board’s rush to try to capture retro pay, prevent arbitration and improve the proposal with the Long Rate Rig language as mandated by the membership, we flirted with making some big mistakes. First off, Section 15 contract language was not complete. Secondly, the BOD had not had a comprehensive briefing by the negotiating committee on the sections that were complete. We did get that briefing at the next meeting and it brought out a couple of troubling items. One was there was no clear understanding by either the Company or the negotiating committee on just how the combined International and Domestic system would work. And secondly, the language in Supplement K regarding medical benefits was so broad and onerous that it drew an immediate “No” vote from both of us and several other BOD members. The language did not even resemble what we were told it was about. In our view this one tiny little obscure item has the potential to be on the level of the pension give away at LUS. The similarities are frightening! We had gotten the cart far in front of the horse and it was time to correct it before it was too late.
The APA Policy Manual contains language that spells out the requirements for negotiating, amending and ratifying contracts and TA’s. The requirements are there for a reason. As one BOD member reminded us,, they are there to save us from ourselves. We waived almost every PM section that dealt with TA ratification to do what we thought the vocal majority of the membership wanted. Had we waited to receive all the completed language from the Company, then held our comprehensive review and taken the PM mandated 7 day BOD review, we would have caught those questionable items and not voted to ratify at the BOD level. Thank God the Company rejected our offer! Regardless of our complete confession above, we still decided to waive certain parts of the PM to try to keep the vote timeline in January, so that if it is ratified the retro pay would be from February 1st not March (As a late note, the Company has agreed to keep the Dec. 2nd retro pay if ratified by January 30th). In full disclosure, there is no PM mandated implementation schedule included with the contract. LUS pilots should recall that this management ONLY implements items that benefit them.
Consider this when you vote.
In closing, this letter was meant to give you a better idea of the events that got us to where we are today. We will be sending frequent joint leadership letters over the next couple weeks including reposting other domiciles base blast’s that we feel are worthwhile. We plan to have details on the Supplement K medical issue and industry comparisons. In addition, we are planning at least one or two base meetings and a telephonic town hall meeting to get as much factual information out as we can. As a reminder, Delta will be having its earnings call on January 20th and American’s on January 27th. We recommend you listen to them before you vote. In the meantime here is a copy of the 2015 Delta Pilots Contract Comparison and letter from Delta's Senior VP of Flight Ops for your review. Stay informed, listen to both sides, keep an open mind, and verify everything you hear no matter what the source.
END OF CLT UPDATE
In Unity,
Paul DiOrio and Paul Music
[email protected]
To view this email on the APA Website, please go here:
https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/Home/APAMemberNews/tabid/842/articleType/CategoryView/categoryId/78/Philadelphia.aspx
Fellow CLT Pilots,
A lot has happened the last few weeks and we understand the frustrations of the pilot group regarding the lack of information during that time. Hopefully this letter will bring clarity and understanding to the situation that we are facing, and the reasons why certain decisions were made on your behalf. While there is a longer history that has brought us to this point, we will focus on the more recent events of the last month or two.
On September 15th, 2014 the NMB certified the APA as the collective bargaining agent (CBA) for all pilots of the merged New American Airlines. That triggered the 30 day MOU mandated JCBA negotiations period. During this extremely compressed schedule there were no meaningful negotiations between the Company and the union on any of the high value contract sections. Although there was debate on the board regarding the timing and strategy to address them, the Company refused to engage in discussions.
In early October, as the 30 day time limit was approaching, the Company informally approached the union leadership and suggested that the timeline be extended to allow the Flight Attendants to complete their ratification vote. The assumption was that if the Company was going to offer us something good and they did not want the Flight Attendants to know about it so as to influence their vote outcome.
There was considerable debate about whether to extend or not and if so how long. During that debate and eventual agreement to extend for 30 additional days, it was understood (by all parties) that any final JCBA TA would need to meet the board’s minimum standard and then be sent to the membership for final ratification. It was determined that 45 days would be required to properly complete this process. The BOD and the company agreed to this timeline. Curious how they were more than amicable when it benefited their agenda.
One of the reasons the BOD agreed to extend the timeline was to allow more time for the Company to engage us with the high value items so that we could work through our differences before arbitration was proffered. Again, there were no discussions what so ever on these items and only infrequent minor discussion on even the insignificant areas. On November 11th, the company passed their “comprehensive” contract offer to the APA. This was comprised of a simple email with a Section 3 Pay offer of the current Delta pay scales plus 3% and seven concessions in return; one of them being the attempted Scope grab.
In a face to face meeting with Mr. Parker and a subsequent letter signed by all 22 BOD members (and 3 new officer elects) it was made abundantly clear that the Scope issue was not going to happen. Scope along with LOS were the largest vocal groups and it was clear to the company that those items would need to be addressed. In their typical style they dropped the scope ask but tried to slip in an even more onerous one that was not so obvious. Scope Chairman, Tim Hamel quickly caught that one and it was also dropped.
The company in their typical style now judges the pilot groups appetite for ratification and decides to throw a small bone to the LOS group of two years added to their LOS. Again, testing the water to see if they have just enough support for a yes vote to pass. At this point the BOD is publicly divided 12-10 . The 12 (CLT included) felt that there is and should be more available and the 10 disagree (no tangible explanations offered). There was a concerted effort of the 12 to seek the support and endorsement of the group of 10, for the subsequent December 17th APA Comprehensive Counter Proposal, but they would have nothing to do with it.
This proposal originally had two pay options and 11 small QOL asks from APA. Four of those asks were granting the company’s asks with refinement or clarification. The others were 321 pay, LOS increase, Min Day, “Promptly Report” language, Vacancy Bids, eliminate LTD 80% earnings rule and retaining the already agreed to TA’s and Dec. 2nd Retro. So in essence we were willing to give them the big items they wanted in return for some items we wanted.
The pay options were; accept the Company’s pay rate with profit sharing or accept the company’s pay rate with a 4% increase and we will forego profit sharing. Since we were told by the group of 10 that the company would never agree to an additional 4% pay increase, the next day we reconsidered our tasking order and modified it to include an additional option to take the Company’s pay proposal and add a stipulation that it would remain 3% above Delta’s by having a yearly comparison. This was just putting into writing what Doug had said many times in public before that “he had no problem paying us Delta plus 3%” and that “it was the right thing to do”. Again, the group of 10 would have nothing to do with it. The offer was presented to the Company and the following day they announced a companywide 4% pay raise and proffered arbitration for the pilots. This shows the extent that they will go to save face and assert that they did not move off their position. It was also a strategic move to tip the scales towards moving the 12 to allow the offer to go to the membership to vote. It worked, the pilots responded exactly in accordance with the company (Jerry Glass scripted) strategy and responded to the money. We liken it to throwing the bag of money off the Brinks truck onto to the downtown street during rush hour. We don't know why they are so ashamed of being perceived as working with us. It is what "great" companies do.
At the next SBOD meeting, much to our surprise, the group of 10 indicated that they would like the BOD to propose singling out the Min Day (Long Rate Rig) issue and see if we could get the Company to change their “just say no” position. The proposal had the caveat that we agree to ratify the TA at the board level. Although still lacking in several areas compared to Delta combined with the fact it may be viewed as controversial by the pilot group, the majority of the BOD (18 to 4) decided to proceed with it. The Company rejected it citing valuations. Had they accepted the offer, the JCBA would have been concluded, retro to Dec. 2nd would be captured, the Company could tell the investment community that they had a BOD approved and ratified contract. As a note of interest, the APA valuations and the company valuations varied greatly. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink! Their arrogance may cost them dearly. It turns out that there is a silver lining.
In hindsight, in the board’s rush to try to capture retro pay, prevent arbitration and improve the proposal with the Long Rate Rig language as mandated by the membership, we flirted with making some big mistakes. First off, Section 15 contract language was not complete. Secondly, the BOD had not had a comprehensive briefing by the negotiating committee on the sections that were complete. We did get that briefing at the next meeting and it brought out a couple of troubling items. One was there was no clear understanding by either the Company or the negotiating committee on just how the combined International and Domestic system would work. And secondly, the language in Supplement K regarding medical benefits was so broad and onerous that it drew an immediate “No” vote from both of us and several other BOD members. The language did not even resemble what we were told it was about. In our view this one tiny little obscure item has the potential to be on the level of the pension give away at LUS. The similarities are frightening! We had gotten the cart far in front of the horse and it was time to correct it before it was too late.
The APA Policy Manual contains language that spells out the requirements for negotiating, amending and ratifying contracts and TA’s. The requirements are there for a reason. As one BOD member reminded us,, they are there to save us from ourselves. We waived almost every PM section that dealt with TA ratification to do what we thought the vocal majority of the membership wanted. Had we waited to receive all the completed language from the Company, then held our comprehensive review and taken the PM mandated 7 day BOD review, we would have caught those questionable items and not voted to ratify at the BOD level. Thank God the Company rejected our offer! Regardless of our complete confession above, we still decided to waive certain parts of the PM to try to keep the vote timeline in January, so that if it is ratified the retro pay would be from February 1st not March (As a late note, the Company has agreed to keep the Dec. 2nd retro pay if ratified by January 30th). In full disclosure, there is no PM mandated implementation schedule included with the contract. LUS pilots should recall that this management ONLY implements items that benefit them.
Consider this when you vote.
In closing, this letter was meant to give you a better idea of the events that got us to where we are today. We will be sending frequent joint leadership letters over the next couple weeks including reposting other domiciles base blast’s that we feel are worthwhile. We plan to have details on the Supplement K medical issue and industry comparisons. In addition, we are planning at least one or two base meetings and a telephonic town hall meeting to get as much factual information out as we can. As a reminder, Delta will be having its earnings call on January 20th and American’s on January 27th. We recommend you listen to them before you vote. In the meantime here is a copy of the 2015 Delta Pilots Contract Comparison and letter from Delta's Senior VP of Flight Ops for your review. Stay informed, listen to both sides, keep an open mind, and verify everything you hear no matter what the source.
END OF CLT UPDATE
In Unity,
Paul DiOrio and Paul Music
[email protected]
To view this email on the APA Website, please go here:
https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/Home/APAMemberNews/tabid/842/articleType/CategoryView/categoryId/78/Philadelphia.aspx
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
- 14,119
Found on the net GREAT LETTER.....................Subj: calmly watching the wing on fire
Woody et al :
The American merger is the 10th merger for US AIR.We are the largest and most profitable airline in the world . We have the highest margin. We have more cash reserves than any airline in the world.Our stock price is up over 100% .
Every executive at Tempe who had stock options has made millions.
Does this seem like a good time to give away 7 items in our contract ? Have our pilots learned anything from the past ?
The pilots of this airline are the leaders of this company. You may not believe this; but the other employees still look up to us and they respect us. Do you think the actions and experience of our pilots had any effect on the success we now enjoy ?
Over the years with Siegel, Wolf, and all the other CEO 's you have brought up the same obvious points to our fellow pilots over and over. The vast majority of our pilots STILL keep hoping hey are dealing with honorable gentlemen and it should be so clear by now that we are not.
Parker and Kirby still think this is a small regional airline that is hours away from going bankrupt and shutting down.
If you have an engine fire you don't stare out the window and hope it goes out; but that is exactly what this pilot group does over and over again.They sit there like a deer in the headlights as our contract deteriorates contract by contract.
Woody do you know that the buying power in 1956 for a DC-6 United Captain WITH NO RAISE , JUST INFLATION ONLY is equal to $525,000 per year in 2015 dollars. Does anyone care about this fact ?
Has anyone notice that oil is at an all time low and that has an effect on airline profits ?
You and I are coming to our final flight in our airline career.This is our last contract .
You would think the young guys would understand that there is no reason to give away anything when the company is expected to earn $7.5 billion in 2015.
At least with guys like Jason there is some hope of leadership in the future.
Do you remember when it was common to fly 11-12 days per month for 85 hours ?
The stand up over nights paid 8:06 in the old days. You could do 6 in a row for 48 hours and then take 12 consecutive days off every month. This is without ever touching your vacation days.
Negative bank is a interest free loan to the company. Positive bank is an interest free loan to the pilot, why did we let positive bank go away ?
Do you remember when we could pass on reserve ?
Does anyone care the West pilots were paid 25% more than we were for 9 years of a non-merger with them ?
Why do we let Parker give the Native American pilots $132,000 for this merger while we were each paid $8,900 ?
Why do these guys want to work 22 days per month to get 85 hours.
Why do these guys want to give up international+domestic which would mean 400+ more pilots.
Why do these guys want to sit in a hotel room for 30 hours and not get a min day ?
The baby DC-9 TWENTY years ago paid $165,000. The E-190 has the same number of seats, why doesn't it pay 95% of the Little Airbus rate like Jet Blue ?
Why can't APA say to Parker: first clean up up all the 300+ grievances and then we will talk.
Do these guys fully understand that AA is planning to buy the AB-321 NEO that can fly to Europe. We will be locked into the lower rate as we fly across the ocean at a sub-stanard rate below the B-757.This is not a maybe, this is fact.
Has anyone figured out even after a new contract is signed that Parker does not follow the contract or implement all components in a timely fashion ?
THIS TIME WE MUST HAVE A FIRM SET TIMELINE FOR IMPLEMENTATION FOR THE NEXT CONTRACT.
Vote yes and get 10 Snickers bars today. Vote no and wait 20-30 days get you will be paid 30 Snickers bars extra for the next 8 years.
If you want improvements in your life and to earn more money the best thing to do is ignore his deadline and vote NO.
Parker wants and needs this much more than we do.
Thanks
Stephen
Stephen Lee
Woody et al :
The American merger is the 10th merger for US AIR.We are the largest and most profitable airline in the world . We have the highest margin. We have more cash reserves than any airline in the world.Our stock price is up over 100% .
Every executive at Tempe who had stock options has made millions.
Does this seem like a good time to give away 7 items in our contract ? Have our pilots learned anything from the past ?
The pilots of this airline are the leaders of this company. You may not believe this; but the other employees still look up to us and they respect us. Do you think the actions and experience of our pilots had any effect on the success we now enjoy ?
Over the years with Siegel, Wolf, and all the other CEO 's you have brought up the same obvious points to our fellow pilots over and over. The vast majority of our pilots STILL keep hoping hey are dealing with honorable gentlemen and it should be so clear by now that we are not.
Parker and Kirby still think this is a small regional airline that is hours away from going bankrupt and shutting down.
If you have an engine fire you don't stare out the window and hope it goes out; but that is exactly what this pilot group does over and over again.They sit there like a deer in the headlights as our contract deteriorates contract by contract.
Woody do you know that the buying power in 1956 for a DC-6 United Captain WITH NO RAISE , JUST INFLATION ONLY is equal to $525,000 per year in 2015 dollars. Does anyone care about this fact ?
Has anyone notice that oil is at an all time low and that has an effect on airline profits ?
You and I are coming to our final flight in our airline career.This is our last contract .
You would think the young guys would understand that there is no reason to give away anything when the company is expected to earn $7.5 billion in 2015.
At least with guys like Jason there is some hope of leadership in the future.
Do you remember when it was common to fly 11-12 days per month for 85 hours ?
The stand up over nights paid 8:06 in the old days. You could do 6 in a row for 48 hours and then take 12 consecutive days off every month. This is without ever touching your vacation days.
Negative bank is a interest free loan to the company. Positive bank is an interest free loan to the pilot, why did we let positive bank go away ?
Do you remember when we could pass on reserve ?
Does anyone care the West pilots were paid 25% more than we were for 9 years of a non-merger with them ?
Why do we let Parker give the Native American pilots $132,000 for this merger while we were each paid $8,900 ?
Why do these guys want to work 22 days per month to get 85 hours.
Why do these guys want to give up international+domestic which would mean 400+ more pilots.
Why do these guys want to sit in a hotel room for 30 hours and not get a min day ?
The baby DC-9 TWENTY years ago paid $165,000. The E-190 has the same number of seats, why doesn't it pay 95% of the Little Airbus rate like Jet Blue ?
Why can't APA say to Parker: first clean up up all the 300+ grievances and then we will talk.
Do these guys fully understand that AA is planning to buy the AB-321 NEO that can fly to Europe. We will be locked into the lower rate as we fly across the ocean at a sub-stanard rate below the B-757.This is not a maybe, this is fact.
Has anyone figured out even after a new contract is signed that Parker does not follow the contract or implement all components in a timely fashion ?
THIS TIME WE MUST HAVE A FIRM SET TIMELINE FOR IMPLEMENTATION FOR THE NEXT CONTRACT.
Vote yes and get 10 Snickers bars today. Vote no and wait 20-30 days get you will be paid 30 Snickers bars extra for the next 8 years.
If you want improvements in your life and to earn more money the best thing to do is ignore his deadline and vote NO.
Parker wants and needs this much more than we do.
Thanks
Stephen
Stephen Lee
- Status
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