13% for UAL mechanics, 17.5 for us!

[Hopeful]

FWAAA: Just remember these times we live in. You are rolling over accepting everything AA throws at you. Let me ask you this. HOW MUCH ARE YOU WILLING TO GIVE AA JUST TO KEEP YOUR JOB?

 

[Hopeful]

I can see I can''t reason with YES voters. KCflyer, you owe your ass to Carty and would wash his socks if he asked you.

 

[Cosmo]

----------------
On 4/9/2003 7:58:29 AM RV4 wrote:


FINALLY,

Proof that BK is NOT worse than we are being asked to volunteer!
----------------​

No, it''s only proof that UNITED''S non-mechanic IAM agreement reached while in the bankruptcy process is not worse than you (the American mechanics) are being asked to volunteer prior to AMR entering Chapter 11 procedures! How can you consider this agreement indicative of what will happen to your union if AMR files for Chapter 11 protection given the following differences:

1.) Different union (IAM vs. TWU).
2.) Different craft (ramp, public contact, etc., vs. mechanic).
3.) Different airline financial characteristics.
4.) Different bankruptcy court (Chicago vs. New York).
5.) Different bankruptcy court judge.

In the end, your mechanics union (TWU) might achieve a better result than the United IAM non-mechanic agreement if AMR enters Chapter 11 bankruptcy procedures. But it also might not. Nobody knows at this point. But given the differences noted above, IMHO the United agreement is simply not a good indicator of how well the TWU will fare in bankruptcy court.

 

[air_guy]

Thats for UAL ramp and food service. Mechanics are not a done deal yet. Even if the paycut looks lower they are giving more on rules specialy outsourcing. That = more layoffs. Make your decision based on the whole package not just pieces.

There upsides in BK are pure speculation and best wishes, but there is one concrete downside ..... it puts us one step closer to liquidation.

 

[KCFlyer]

----------------
On 4/9/2003 10:48:14 AM RV4 wrote:




You are a FOOL, the aircraft you''re flying on is being flown by the avionics and systems mechanic most of the flight. But go ahead and advocate them to lose pay/benefits on your behalf, you can afford it.
----------------
​

Truth be told RV4 - I haven''t been flying AA much lately. Too much indecision going on over there to put my money at risk. When I want to risk my money, I go to Vegas.

 

[Bob Owens]

----------------
On 4/9/2003 11:36:53 AM FA Mikey wrote:

----------------​

UAL survival is not dependent on me. I am not sure you understand the concept on an independent union. We have no intrest in UAL or representing its flight attendants. Our only concern is protecting the AA f/a''s, keeping there QAL as best we can. Saving the company so we can get back what we gave another day.

Anyone looks foolish, or clueless its not me. You are the guys touting the great IAM has starved off a deeper cut than AA. When all you have is a silly headline, a settlement of the rampers not mechanics.

Fact UAL takes a 445 million dollar cut, AA takes a 365 million. There is your facts that they took a bigger cut. Add in the fact that they have fewer people. Each persons share is greater.


----------------

I''m not sure that your "Independant Union" understands the concept of Unionism. Namely to improve the working conditions and pay of their members, not to save companies at any price. You dont want more members? Yea, I''ll believe that.

Your facts still do not support your claim that AA will get deeper cuts in Bk than what they are asking. The fact is that the company put the entire burden of the $5million daily losses on the workers. The judge has to consider need and equity of treatment before he abrogates the deal. With government aid on the way and the possibility of things winding down in the middle east and the likelyhood of lower fuel prices the need may not be there much longer. Certainly not for the next six years. Are we expected to give back money so AA can buy more airplanes, build new terminals, rent Sports Arenas,lease cars for executives (dont we pay them enough to buy their own cars like us-or do you get a gar from the union?),and buy clothes for executives wives?

 

[KCFlyer]

----------------
On 4/9/2003 10:35:49 AM Hopeful wrote:

I can see I can''t reason with YES voters. KCflyer, you owe your ass to Carty and would wash his socks if he asked you.

----------------​

I owe my ass to no one at American Airlines, except maybe the pilot flying the aircraft I am on. I''m derided because I''m not an airline employee. But as such, I am not blinded by one side or the other. Just facing a little reality - I haven''t read anything that guarnatees that it won''t be Chapter 7...only assumptions that it will be Chapter 11 and that the judge will be oh so labor friendly and give them everything they ask for and order that Carty''s country club membership be revoked and AA will emerge as the world beater.

What do you do if a judge looks at the industry, with two major''s already in bankruptcy, one emerging with almost a billion dollars in debt, the other still operating under chapter 11 with little more than the notion of operating a "low cost unit" within the parent airline, and decides that there has already been enough money tossed into this black hole called the airline industry, and feels that creditors and the industry as a whole would be better off with an instant reduction of system capacity?

 

[AAviator]

Here is what the IAM told their members on the 9th.

"It is just as important to understand that all benefits, including recall rights, seniority protections and health benefits are subject to far greater changes if the agreement is rejected by members and dissolved by order of the bankruptcy court."



[url="http://www.iam141.org/ual.htm#ualupdate4-7-03"]http://www.iam141.org/ual.htm#ualupdate4-7-03[/URL]

 

[RV4]

----------------
On 4/9/2003 10:58:44 AM KCFlyer wrote:




Truth be told RV4 - I haven''t been flying AA much lately. Too much indecision going on over there to put my money at risk. When I want to risk my money, I go to Vegas.
----------------
​

Oh now a retreat? Ok so why then do you continue the charade about being innocent and in need of employee concessions?

I have utmost respect for our cutomers and their importance in providing my pay. I just wish the customer would respect our right to hash this out ourselves without whimpering interference while claiming concern for their own wallet, and then claiming they already quit flying AA.

Your credibility has been tarnished by your own postings.

 

[Bob Owens]

FA MIKEY wrot;
"You are both clueless! This is an agreement for Ramp & Stores, Public Contact Employees, Security Guards and Food Service employees only.

District 141M of the International Association of Machinists, which represents United''s 13,000 mechanics, has yet to reach agreement on anything.

What happens in terms of cuts is really irrelevant. AA will get a deeper cut in BK than what they are asking. The judge will not be concerned with UAL. Only the AA balance sheet and bottom line."


Ok Mikey, calm down, you appear to be having a hissy fit since developements at UAL are making you look stupid for advocating that we give away everything instead of refusing to cower to their threats. Just think if UAL survives you dont get all them new members.

Please validate your statements that AA will get deeper cuts. Explain the rationale behind that statement. PLease use facts to support your arguement.



mike

 

[FA Mikey]

----------------
On 4/9/2003 1156 AM Bob Owens wrote:

FA MIKEY wrot;
"You are both clueless! This is an agreement for Ramp & Stores, Public Contact Employees, Security Guards and Food Service employees only.

District 141M of the International Association of Machinists, which represents United''s 13,000 mechanics, has yet to reach agreement on anything.

What happens in terms of cuts is really irrelevant. AA will get a deeper cut in BK than what they are asking. The judge will not be concerned with UAL. Only the AA balance sheet and bottom line."


Ok Mikey, calm down, you appear to be having a hissy fit since developements at UAL are making you look stupid for advocating that we give away everything instead of refusing to cower to their threats. Just think if UAL survives you dont get all them new members.

Please validate your statements that AA will get deeper cuts. Explain the rationale behind that statement. PLease use facts to support your arguement.



mike


----------------​

UAL survival is not dependent on me. I am not sure you understand the concept on an independent union. We have no intrest in UAL or representing its flight attendants. Our only concern is protecting the AA f/a''s, keeping there QAL as best we can. Saving the company so we can get back what we gave another day.

Anyone looks foolish, or clueless its not me. You are the guys touting the great IAM has starved off a deeper cut than AA. When all you have is a silly headline, a settlement of the rampers not mechanics.

Fact UAL takes a 445 million dollar cut, AA takes a 365 million. There is your facts that they took a bigger cut. Add in the fact that they have fewer people. Each persons share is greater.

 

[Bob Owens]

----------------
On 4/9/2003 11:33:18 AM air_guy wrote:

Thats for UAL ramp and food service. Mechanics are not a done deal yet. Even if the paycut looks lower they are giving more on rules specialy outsourcing. That = more layoffs. Make your decision based on the whole package not just pieces.

There upsides in BK are pure speculation and best wishes, but there is one concrete downside ..... it puts us one step closer to liquidation.

----------------​

More than likely much of what they are giving up now we gave away 30 years ago.

 

[RV4]

Again, I wish the customer would respect our right to hash this out ourselves without whimpering interference while claiming concern for their own wallet, and then claiming they already quit flying AA.

 

[KCFlyer]

You really don''t get it, do you RV4 - many of us non-employees...no let me rephrase that...many of us non-mechanics really do like AA. And we''d like to see it continue.

You cite supposed "facts" that going before a bankruptcy judge is perferable to "hashing things out" right now. Part of your "hashing out" strategy has been the battle cry "full pay til the last day". I am still trying to figure if by "last day" you mean the day the judge tells you what you get, or the day that AA closes it''s doors for good. Because the latter isn''t out of the question.

 

[KCFlyer]

RV-4 - my avoiding AA is due in large part to YOUR postings. You need me more than I need you. But you are doing a fine job of sending my travel dollars elsewhere. I hope for your sake that you can find similar success in persuading the bankruptcy judge.