Wright Amendment Poll #2
- Thread starter dl764
- Start date
No spin. AA currently flies to the most international destinations (no kidding!) of any carrier by far out of DFW and not including China, the current timetable shows at many widebodies (you are counting 76's as well I hope). Seeing as AA is clearly expanding into China/Asia, how do you not see where they will benefit largely from this?
The reason I posted is b/c you AAers pretend to be competition-friendly and DFW pretends to be unbiased. NK was quickly chased out of DFW just like any other substantial (more than a flight or two) new competition. DFW clearly is feeding $$ back into AA. And you AAers also state that DAL's lower landing fees are proof that DAL is in bed with WN (huh?) yet you see what programs come to DFW.
Anyways...it is extremely interesting that you carry the "LUV" moniker but are obviously from the other side. Seems there are many on these boards that pretend to be LUVers but are clearly not. Why is that? Should I change my name to ChAApter 12 to make people believe that I am an AAer 'til I die? Seems misleading... Is that intentional?
First to address your PERSONAL attack on a poster.
I made the screen name when AA was flying the 56 seat F100's out of Love Field, look at the date of my registration. I know that LUV is also WN's stock ticker, which was a take off of Love Field as their original airport of operation.
Second, Spirit is still operating out of DFW, just not on a Daily basis.
Third, Tell me WN does not compete when a new entrant starts competing service. Remember when B6 started intra-california and California-LAS service. Southwest not only matched but UNDERcut B6's introductory fares.
Fourth, Until a carrier other than begins HUB operations at DFW, AA will continue to have the most international service. out of DFW. There is a US law concerning cabotage, non-US carriers can only fly revenue passengers to and from their home countries. Therefore you won't be able to find a BA/LH/AF flight from DFW or any other US city to say NRT, SCL, MEX, YVR.
Fifth, my original "Spin Alert" which you are trying to discredit by attacking the poster and not the posted information. To reiterate, in order to recieve financial rebates and discounts on service out of DFW it must be NEW service for that carrier, not for existing routes. Therefore with the exception of a few new routes out of DFW, the majority of AA's international service is not eligible for recompensation.
SharoninSAT
Veteran
Repealing the Wright(wrong) Amendment is getting closer and closer...
WNrforlife
Senior
- Apr 17, 2003
- 444
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Repealing the Wright(wrong) Amendment is getting closer and closer...
It's a done deal............
ngneer
Advanced
- Aug 20, 2002
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From USA Today: All three of Nebraska’s Congressmen have introduced a bill that would make their state the ninth to be excluded from the Wright Amendment, which restricts long-distance flights from Dallas Love Field. Their legislation also includes language that would allow Dallas passengers to connect via Omaha to other cities currently deemed off limits by Wright.
Sorry you took such offense. I was merely making what I found to be a pretty interesting observation. Maybe it was you making a PERSONAL attack on the poster by calling them a "spinner" when an argument was presented that made my tone what it was.
Exactly. I never said that they pulled out completely...but the were forced, rather quickly, to draw down service. This isn't an illusion...AMR is infamous for battering other carriers immediately and intensively.
I'm sorry...who was the carrier that rushed to snatch up every possible inch of remaining real estate and slots at LGB? Why...it was AA!
And who immediately dropped everything once B6 pulled out? Why...it was AA! Sure WN competes...they just do it ethically. And I truly don't recall this undercutting...at least nothing beyond what WN normally does with their frequent sales (irregardless of competition) of $29-$49...especially on the west coast... but would be interested in any data you could provide. And per my prior comment...I'd say that it was more AA than WN that ran B6 out of LGB.But LGB was an interesting battle. First, it displayed that B6 can employ ruthless tactics such as covertly gobbling up all gate space and slots before leaking new service and then having a near monopoly while underutilizing its said assets at an airport (sound familiar?). Second, it was the first sign of vulnerability/mortality for B6.
Fifth Freedom. Need I say more? NW just happens to have a hub in NRT.
Again...who do you think would add international routes? Sure...you'll get a small set of international carriers but as AA has the concentration of network at DFW, don't you think that odds are that AA has the greatest potential to benefit from this? People from AA claim that WN gets an unfair advantage...or rather...that DAL "subsidizes" (this one cracks me up) WN b/c the airport has lower landing fees. I just mention that DFW throws out alot of incentives for which AA has unarguably (due to them having a fortress hub there) the greatest potential to receive.
Sorry you took such offense. I was merely making what I found to be a pretty interesting observation. Maybe it was you making a PERSONAL attack on the poster by calling them a "spinner" when an argument was presented that made my tone what it was.
Exactly. I never said that they pulled out completely...but the were forced, rather quickly, to draw down service. This isn't an illusion...AMR is infamous for battering other carriers immediately and intensively.
I'm sorry...who was the carrier that rushed to snatch up every possible inch of remaining real estate and slots at LGB? Why...it was AA!
But LGB was an interesting battle. First, it displayed that B6 can employ ruthless tactics such as covertly gobbling up all gate space and slots before leaking new service and then having a near monopoly while underutilizing its said assets at an airport (sound familiar?). Second, it was the first sign of vulnerability/mortality for B6.
Fifth Freedom. Need I say more? NW just happens to have a hub in NRT.
Again...who do you think would add international routes? Sure...you'll get a small set of international carriers but as AA has the concentration of network at DFW, don't you think that odds are that AA has the greatest potential to benefit from this? People from AA claim that WN gets an unfair advantage...or rather...that DAL "subsidizes" (this one cracks me up) WN b/c the airport has lower landing fees. I just mention that DFW throws out alot of incentives for which AA has unarguably (due to them having a fortress hub there) the greatest potential to receive.
The "spin alert" was directed towards the content of the post and not the poster. If I had said LIAR LIAR, then I would be attacking the poster.
I think you need to check some facts, B6 is still operating out of LGB. AA is the carrier that has COMPLETELY ended service out of LGB.
Your phrase
seems to indicate that Spirit has withdrawn its service from DFW.
Again to reiterate, any airline is entitled to getting reimbursement for new service. AA having the most "existing" service out of DFW actually would have a harder time starting new service than many other airlines due to the fact that it has so many markets that are currently served. Most markets that AA does not serve, are markets doesn't feel they could make money serving. Where as another airline, can start service on a route AA serves, but they do not serve from DFW and receive reimbursement.
And finally, how many airlines have 5th freedom rights in the US? I believe the answer is zero, but I could be wrong. Given how hard it is to get an open skies agreement with the EU, I can pretty much guarantee that the Wright Amendment will be gone long before a foreign flag carrier will be able to pick up passengers for domestic US flights.
Talk about hair-splitting (a reference to the post and not the poster)! Let me just state that when I mention "chased out" or "pulled out", I don't mean 100%. It means a significant pull down which is quite undeniable in each example (NK in DFW and B6 in LGB).
And you are right...fifth freedom largely does not exist in the US though AC is planning alot of one hops using the US as a mid-point and hoping to carry traffic to/from the US so apparently they are one example. But the hair-splitting on this one comes from the excuses you had created as to why foreign carriers are not likely to start up much service out of DFW. You say it is b/c they can only serve one point...but that is not true. Sure...many many not have open skies to fly LHR-DFW-NRT and enplane/deplane on each leg but there is nothing stopping DFW-LHR-ATH or DFW-NRT-BOM or CCS-MEX-DFW or... So your argument is not really accurate. I would say that if I were voting for yours or mine (which is that AA has a LOOOONG history of chasing anyone and everyone away from its fortress and has made it nearly impossible to place any new service into Dallas), I would go with mine which happens to have alot of fact and history behind it. You cannot dispute (though I know you will) the fact that AA is THE most agressive defender of a single hub. Just look at the number of tombstones (extinct airlines) at Dallas...as well as other AA "focus" cities. Again...quite undeniable as to what the real reason that carriers avoid DFW is. Opening DAL would actually allow others into the Dallas area and rather than killing traffic (as AA alleges), it would stimulate it. Sounds like a win-win...one for the industry and one for the consumer.
It would help your case a bit if you used correct facts. AA was chased out of LGB, NOT Jetblue.
US/Canada are in the process of developing an open skies agreement, this would allow Canadian airlines to pick up passengers and fly them to points outside the US other than Canada. No airline from another country has the right to pick up passengers in the US and take them to another point within the US. So most international carriers only serve points within the US where they have alliance/codeshare partners to supplement their O/D passengers with connecting passengers.
I would say that Northwest is at least as aggressive as AA is regarding defending their hubs.
Again...splitting hairs. I'm not argueing that foreign carriers will begin service within the US. We are talking about Fifth Freedom which is country A to country B to country C...not Cabotage which is country A to country B to country B. And PUHLEASE...like I said...the argument you made is that foreign carriers can essentially only fly RTs to DFW from their home countries b/c, as you state, anything else would be cabotage...but that is not accurate. Carriers can flow through the US if granted 5th freedom (i.e. open skies) and most carriers (all?) can carry pax from DFW to one country and then on to another. So in other words, there are plenty of O&Ds that foreign carriers can serve out of DFW. The unfortunate thing is that AA will defend until the death if any carrier wants to take them on in their fortress.
And I agree that NW is agressive but I think that the chosen cities of MSP, DTW, and MEM also have alot to do with their lack of major competition. None of these cities has a huge base (though MSP has been growing significantly)...at least none nearly as large as DFW. DFW has alot to lure domestic and foreign carriers alike...they just can't get in. Allowing competition in the metroplex is what is needed. Why deregulate the industry and then regulate one city?
KCFlyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
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Because it's the AAmerican way?
If they want to fix this arguement then close either DAL or DFW. With all of the unused space at DFW and the investment made there they should shutter DAL and or tighten the Wright restrictions to prevent penalizing the carriers that had to make the move originally. I am sure AA would have preferred the close in proximity of DAL to offer their hub but that was not an option and now the SWA lobby wants to change all of that.
Typical.
KCFlyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 11,284
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REally? I'd submit that AA wouldn't have near the presence that they do in Dallas if their hub was confined to DAL. And since you are the international fly boy, and your airline doesn't offer many international flights out of Dallas, you might not be aware that DFW is actually closer to more corporate headquarters and offices than DAL. But all that is beside the point...When WN stayed at DAL, they weren't under the jurisdiction of the CAB, since they were an intrastate carrier. Then came deregulation, and the CAB ceased to exist. The goal of deregulation was to encourage competition...between airlines and airports. It seems to have worked quite well in Chicago, where not one, but two major airlines have huge hub operations, yet they coexist quite nicely with MDW. But the first act under deragulation was to regulate one airport. It didn't hurt that this all happened at right about the same time that American Airlines moved their headquarters to Jim Wright's district.
