Words For Thought To My Peers

[*Proud*AAf/a*]

I have some thoughts to share with the TWA f/a's on furlough, and anyone interested...

If AMR has a standing policy that when, for example a transfer from American Eagle to AA you have the bidding seniority of someone who was hired off the street. Then you factor in the TWA people that came to AA off the street, (prior to the acquisition), should they end up furloughed instead? We aren't talking small numbers here by the way, at least hundreds of people.

So if AA has all these ex-TWA f/a's starting at entry level pay and seniority. Along with company transfers that came from other departments with sometimes more than a decade of service. Only to find themselves starting at the bottom with Occupational Seniority. How could APFA and AA possibly bring 3500 f/a's from TWA and slot them in. It would have been an internal nightmare. Believe me I don't agree with the outcome that we have seen thus far. But the bottom line is dollars and cents. You can be sure that the fact TWA f/a's came with full pay credit, was a more expensive solution for AA to agree to. It could only have been decided to go that way, since the AA f/a's morale which was already low enough without a contract at the time of the acquisition.

What I'm trying to point out here is simple. I'm sorry if someone has already said this before and I sound redundent. The reason why the TWA folks were laid off was not a planned situation for AA. It was the misfortune of the post 9-11 times. When I was hired in 99 I was based in Dallas. I happened to walk by a very intense meeting by management discussing the budget crunch that was coming in 2000. So my point? Things were already deterioting from within before 9-11. 9-11 speed things up. Now we are way we are, its pittiful.

I believe what happened to the furloughed folks, was and is a very sad thing. I live with lots of anxiety wondering when I will be next.

I don't believe AMR would have bought TWA if it wasn't for fact that United was working on taking on US Air. But by the time US Regulators decided to not approve the United/US Air merger, AMR was already locked into the closing stages of the TWA acquisition. Who would have none that the spiral was going accelerate after 9-11, I don't believe AMR saw it coming.

But one thing I have learned in my short career. I am yet to see a Corporation that gets it right everytime. Having been out there, AA is far from perfect but still is the hand that feeds me. APFA is still the Union that helps me when the company plays political games on the line.

The election was a tough one and a reflection of how divided the whole Nation is at the present time. Statistically the APFA election had a voter turn out consistent with a typical American election turn out.

Bottom line. In more short career with AA. I am far from in love with the APFA. I do hear the frustration out there. But how do you fix a mistake that started years ago with AA. I think priority needs to be to work on Unity and getting us in a position to bring the TWA folks back soon.

Yes I agree the Concessions Vote was handled wrong. But who knew that the company was going to sweeten the pot while we already may have sent in our ballots. The APFA committee obviously, including the three new folks had no idea that was going to happen. They based the closed ballot election simply on saving money. If the different work group unions would have worked together there would have been a consistent voting ballot for all the work groups. As it turned out, "left hand wasn't talking to right hand". Decisions had to be made with the infamous bottom line of savng money for the membership with a cheaper ballot system. Blame the committee not one person for that one.

With reality that we are now all AA f/a's working (or layed off with recall rights) to one company and one union. Leave the past in the past and fix things for a better future.

You can't blame everything on one person. We are dealing with a product of a very aggressive form of competition. The decisions being made out there are far from good ones at best. But look carefully at the big picture and pick your battles carefully.

It's my reality that I am sharing with you folks out there...

 

[jimntx]

If AMR has a standing policy that when, for example a transfer from American Eagle to AA you have the bidding seniority of someone who was hired off the street. Then you factor in the TWA people that came to AA off the street, (prior to the acquisition), should they end up furloughed instead? We aren't talking small numbers here by the way, at least hundreds of people.

First off, like a lot of nAAtives (and I'm one also; so, no assuming that I am former TWA), you automatically assume that the furlough mess is a zero sum game. If one former TWA f/a is given a job, one nAAtive has to lose theirs. There were concessions that could have been made to the company that would have resulted in few or NO furloughs, AA or TWA. Former TWA flight attendants who were experienced union workers and contract negotiators tried to suggest some of these ideas. All were ignored, as far as I can tell. Not just rejected, ignored.

So if AA has all these ex-TWA f/a's starting at entry level pay and seniority. Along with company transfers that came from other departments with sometimes more than a decade of service. Only to find themselves starting at the bottom with Occupational Seniority. How could APFA and AA possibly bring 3500 f/a's from TWA and slot them in.

Happens all the time in the real world. Beside that, as a new hire I knew what the job paid and where I would be located on the seniority list. Same is true for company transfers. The former TWA flight attendants did not have a choice. Now I know you can cavalierly say, "Well, if they didn't like it, they could quit and go somewhere else." With your 5 years of experience, try to put yourself in the shoes of someone who had 30-40 years with TWA. Starting over is not an easy task for someone approaching, but not yet at, retirement age. Ask some of the people who had their careers and pensions wiped out by the thieves at the top of Enron how they feel about "just starting over."

What I'm trying to point out here is simple. I'm sorry if someone has already said this before and I sound redundent. The reason why the TWA folks were laid off was not a planned situation for AA. It was the misfortune of the post 9-11 times.

Are you sure about that? Do you know that for a fact, or are you just repeating the company/APFA mantra? Why don't you ask some of the former TWA flight attendants about how amazed they were at AMR's actions from day one after they took control. They immediately started eliminating every single money-making route flown out of STL. I remember at a Jane Allen Town Hall meeting at DFW after 9/11, she made the statement that STL was the second most profitable hub for AA. Six months after that, the company is claiming that STL is a money-loser. Nothing changed except the elimination by the company of profitable routes at STL .

When I was hired in 99 I was based in Dallas. I happened to walk by a very intense meeting by management discussing the budget crunch that was coming in 2000. So my point? Things were already deterioting from within before 9-11.

Oh? So, if management knew in 1999 that the financial situation was deteriorating, why did they continue to hire flight attendants like crazy all through 2000 and 2001. I was in 2000-23! I graduated in Sept. 2000 and there were classes graduating after me almost weekly right up until late November or early December. Furthermore, by June of 2001, I was already off the last two pages of the reserve list at DFW! I know one 10+year flight attendant who told me it took him 9 years at DFW just to get off the last page.

I don't believe AMR would have bought TWA if it wasn't for fact that United was working on taking on US Air. But by the time US Regulators decided to not approve the United/US Air merger, AMR was already locked into the closing stages of the TWA acquisition.

Oh, now I agree with you here, but I think you are missing the fact that the reason why AMR bought TWA was nothing more than a p*ss*ng contest with United. AMR did not want TWA, but even more, they didn't want to give up the title of "World's Largest Airline". You're right. If Carty had known that the United-US Airways merger was going to be blocked, he wouldn't have bought TWA, but he let his testosterone rule his head.

Your title is right on. There is a mess at AA and within the APFA, but I don't think platitudes about how we all need to just forget the past and move on is going to clean up the mess.

 

[*Proud*AAf/a*]

OK here it goes, Jimntx I'm answering with what I think is what happened...

There were concessions that could have been made to the company that would have resulted in few or NO furloughs, AA or TWA. Former TWA flight attendants who were experienced union workers and contract negotiators tried to suggest some of these ideas. All were ignored, as far as I can tell. Not just rejected, ignored.

With the Post 9-11 stuff going on out there. The fact you feel that the TWA knowledge was not applied. Leaves curious myself. I refuse to believe that it went completely unheard. But I am more curious with what AA could have done differently, if they had listened. Did any US Based Legacy carrier out there hear those suggestions and take advantage of these ideas and and apply them for themselves? Which Legacy carrier out they has not had a furlough situation out there?

With your 5 years of experience, try to put yourself in the shoes of someone who had 30-40 years with TWA. Starting over is not an easy task for someone approaching, but not yet at, retirement age. Ask some of the people who had their careers and pensions wiped out by the thieves

I thought I stressed it over and over in my thoughts that I don't agree with all the decisions made out there. Oh believe me I know to well the realities of starting over. My parrents migrated to Canada in the early 50's and I know exactly what starting over is, try adding a language barrier too and decsrimination to Live Challenges. I myself earmed my stay in the US in a NINE year legal battle with INS. When AA bought TWA the nAAtive F/a's didn't have a contract for already quite some time. I can tell you the morale was already bad in those days with the AA games. I don't know what the alternative could have been yet? But the way I see it AA/APFA was trying to do damage control on the line? Giving full Pay Credit I think was a stretch for AA, knowing them the way I do now. I belvieve Occupational Credit for 3500 people would have been nice. But from what I hear with Air Canada/Canadian. They are still struggling with this matter, and they did slot using the one for one deal. Now look how Air Canada is doing. Not Good. I am still curious what could have been done that wouldn't have pissed off 22000 nAAtives?

Are you sure about that? Do you know that for a fact, or are you just repeating the company/APFA mantra? Why don't you ask some of the former TWA flight attendants about how amazed they were at AMR's actions from day one after they took control. They immediately started eliminating every single money-making route flown out of STL. I remember at a Jane Allen Town Hall meeting at DFW after 9/11, she made the statement that STL was the second most profitable hub for AA. Six months after that, the company is claiming that STL is a money-loser. Nothing changed except the elimination by the company of profitable routes at STL .

No I'm not sure about the AA/APFA stratagies. I'm telling you based on what I see going on through my eyes. But I ask you. Did AA have to take on the TWA work groups? Legally I don't thing the deal would have gone through without the comittment from AA. I hate the fact that I can't see the books myself and really give my opinion about the Rat JA said in the T H Meetings. I really think that we are just numbers to AA. I don't know that they anticipated where we are today. I still feel the"Juries Out". I need to see the books. Before I take a position. They still feed me. Now to bring you up to speed, I saw online that we had 100 senior f/a retire in Jan/Feb 04. So I am still curious what happened in 3rd and 4th quarter 03. Not to mention March 04. I still think we will see Furloughee's coming back sooner than we think. Not to mention that the possibility of buying the possibility that AA will buy the BOS,NYC, DC shuttle for pennies on the dollar. Just more people flying on AA, and hopefully more jobs by default?

Oh? So, if management knew in 1999 that the financial situation was deteriorating, why did they continue to hire flight attendants like crazy all through 2000 and 2001. I was in 2000-23! I graduated in Sept. 2000 and there were classes graduating after me almost weekly right up until late November or early December. Furthermore, by June of 2001, I was already off the last two pages of the reserve list at DFW! I know one 10+year flight attendant who told me it took him 9 years at DFW just to get off the last page.

I can tell you again in Corporate America, my experience when dealing with competition... AA was working hard to hire f/a's as you said, based on pre-9/11 economic forecasts. When I was with BellSouth and Pacific Bell, who by the way have had major layoffs. For the longest time they continued to hire like crazy. Still I think it has to do with anticipated econimic growth. At the time you and I were hired, I understood that the picking of descent people to work the f/a position was becoming more challenging for AA. So again I would guess the hiring craze, was trying to keep up with the competition. The Reserve deal was great for me too. But it was inevitable that when the one on one off rotation ended for all that were hired around our time. The reality of where the Seniority list was going to fall had not really fully and truely developed.

Your title is right on. There is a mess at AA and within the APFA, but I don't think platitudes about how we all need to just forget the past and move on is going to clean up the mess.

I can't tell anyone what to do or think... I thank you for challenging me though. I would like to get more answers to my frustrated questions. I don't believe I will ever know the right answer. What I don know is. As I said in my previous post. "Life is too short to dwell on the could of should of". I think that my "Pick your Battles" is a personal lesson I have learned for myself with life. I am just trying to suggest what I think has happened so far.

I really want to stress that I am not a know it all. I hope you try to answer some of my questions. Maybe my misconceptions are not just my misconceptions. I don't have much confidence in our Union new or old. I don't know that AA will be able to get its head out of the sand. I sure hope they do, for all our sake. But have you noticed yet? Or maybe you will? It seems like the Figure heads in Management have changed, but has it really improved the "left hand talking to the right hand". I hate to say it but I will. "I think not!"

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< Proud----We don't have to go into the fine point of past history to know that what your Union did was just plan wrong! If nothing else, the way it was done was wrong! The TWA F/A's had "no" say in any of this! None!!!! That is why they are taking legal recourse in this matter!!!Your Union leadership can not hide from this matter indfenitly! It will come back to bit them in their tail feathers!!!!Sad but true!!!!!! :down:

 

[jimntx]

OK here it goes, Jimntx I'm answering with what I think is what happened...
Did any US Based Legacy carrier out there hear those suggestions and take advantage of these ideas and and apply them for themselves? Which Legacy carrier out they has not had a furlough situation out there?!"

Yes. Continental to this day has neither furloughed any tenured flight attendants nor have they asked for a dime in concessions from their flight attendants . They have approximately 1,000 flight attendants on voluntary furloughs--they call them COLAs (company offered leaves of absence)--and the union is challenging the release of 47 flight attendants who were still in training on 9/11 (I may have this wrong. The 47 may have graduated but still been on probation at the time. Remember that AA simply released everyone still on probation.) Continental's flight attendants top of scale is now higher than AA's "industry leading contract," because they got their contractually scheduled raises in December, 2001, 2002, and 2003. All following 9/11. Oh, and according to my friends who fly for Continental that is all as a result of their union negotiating with the company .

I am still curious what could have been done that wouldn't have pissed off 22000 nAAtives?

If you are talking about ways to integrate the TWA flight attendants fairly, I guess we'll never know will we? One thing though, if AA and APFA had honored the original SIA--namely that there would be a fence around STL for 5 years--it would have been a mostly a moot point because the majority of the TWA flight attendants had planned to retire before the fence came down. But, I doubt any solution would have not pissed off the nAAtives. They (and especially John Ward) were unhappy that the TWA flight attendants had even been thrown the bone of company seniority for pay and benefits. But then, a lot of nAAtives I worked with at DFW seemed to be pissed off that they had to show up to work to collect their paychecks.

Did AA have to take on the TWA work groups? Legally I don't thing the deal would have gone through without the comittment from AA.

Well, technically, no. But, AA did NOT have the personnel to take over the STL and JFK operations; so, unless they wanted to simply buy TWA and shut it down, yes they had to take on the TWA work groups.

Now to bring you up to speed, I saw online that we had 100 senior f/a retire in Jan/Feb 04. So I am still curious what happened in 3rd and 4th quarter 03. Not to mention March 04. I still think we will see Furloughee's coming back sooner than we think. Not to mention that the possibility of buying the possibility that AA will buy the BOS,NYC, DC shuttle for pennies on the dollar. Just more people flying on AA, and hopefully more jobs by default?

Don't assume that the rumored US Airways sale of the Shuttle is a done deal or even a deal in progress. That may be as much a management red herring to threaten THEIR unions as it is an actual planned action by management. And, even if it is a done deal, don't assume that AA is the winning bidder. Everyone and his dog wants those LGA and DCA landing slots. Rumor has it that Sir Richard Branson and his new Virgin America will be bidding for the shuttle, and he has a LOT more money and financing than AA. Whoever buys those slots is going to pay a premium way over actual market value which is what AMR did with TWA to keep anyone else from buying them. Can we afford to spend that kind of money now?

As far as recall, I am quite sure that I will be recalled. In fact, I think it will happen right before Christmas this year, but don't think it will be one-for-one with all the expected retirements. AA continues to shift flying from AA to AE, and I think it will accelerate as AE gets the 70-seat CRJs.

I can tell you again in Corporate America, my experience when dealing with competition... AA was working hard to hire f/a's as you said, based on pre-9/11 economic forecasts. When I was with BellSouth and Pacific Bell, who by the way have had major layoffs. For the longest time they continued to hire like crazy. Still I think it has to do with anticipated econimic growth.

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. In your first post, you said you overheard a heated management discussion regarding the coming financial crunch in 2000 and that the company knew the financial picture was deteriorating , and now you say they continued to hire flight attendants based on "anticipated economic growth."


I worked in government and corporate America for over 30 years prior to coming to AA. And, yes, management stupidity, cupidity, and pigheadedness is not unique to AMR, but AMR does seem to have bigger share of it than most.

The thing that surprises me is the APFA. Never in the history of the U.S. union movement has a union been so thoroughly ineffective in its bargaining efforts. or been so vindictive toward 20% of its membership, and stayed in power. They have accomplished it through the total apathy of their members. Think about it, 11,000 flight attendants did not even bother to vote in the election. That's almost 50% of the total membership! Less than that voted on our "industry-leading contract" back in 2001.

Don't misunderstand. I loved being a flight attendant and I was VERY good at it. And, I will go back in a second, but I have no illusions that the APFA has any ability, or desire, to heal the damage that they created. And, that suits AMR just fine. AMR wants their lap dog, John Ward, to keep the union divided because a divided union is an ineffectual union.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

jimntx,

Jim, I've been meaning to ask this question of you, but for some unknow reason still(until today) hav'nt gotten around to it.

Question(s) ?

By your best guess, when do you think you'll be recalled ??

How many F/A's in front of you, on the recall list ??

Thanx,
NH/BB's

 

[jimntx]

jimntx,

Jim, I've been meaning to ask this question of you, but for some unknow reason still(until today) hav'nt gotten around to it.

Question(s) ?

By your best guess, when do you think you'll be recalled ??

How many F/A's in front of you, on the recall list ??

Thanx,
NH/BB's

There is a slight possibility that there will be a recall this summer, and a stronger possibility that there will be a recall right before Christmas--both contingent upon the conventional wisdom (CW) being right this time.

1. Summer--There are approx. 1300 flight attendants due back from Overage Leaves at the end of June. The company has already announced that they will not be extending any of the leaves because they "need every one of those flight attendants." If the CW is correct and a large number of the OVLs choose to retire or resign rather than come back, there may very well be a recall this summer. However, it may not be a one-for-one--i.e., 400 refusing to return does not necessarily mean 400 furloughees being recalled.

2. Before Christmas--The lump sum payment for the 777 arbitration award is to be paid to the eligible flight attendants on the payroll as of 15OCT04. Being 777 flight attendants, they are most all very senior. The CW says that a big percentage of the people eligible for the payment are planning to turn in their retirement papers as soon as they get their check in their hands. If true, they would be retiring either 01NOV or 01DEC. I'm guessing that right before the Christmas rush, they would have to be replaced.

I'm about 400 from the top of the list.

 

[MiAAmi]

AA continues to shift flying from AA to AE, and I think it will accelerate as AE gets the 70-seat CRJs.

This is not true. Although AMR is expanding eagle there has been no further cuts at AA or we would see additional furloughs of both pilots and flight attendants.

 

[MiAAmi]

Don't misunderstand. I loved being a flight attendant and I was VERY good at it. And, I will go back in a second, but I have no illusions that the APFA has any ability, or desire, to heal the damage that they created. And, that suits AMR just fine. AMR wants their lap dog, John Ward, to keep the union divided because a divided union is an ineffectual union.

If you know this already why do you perpetuate the division in ranks? Isn't that playing right into the companies plan?

 

[Hunter]

AA continues to shift flying from AA to AE, and I think it will accelerate as AE gets the 70-seat CRJs.

This is not true. Although AMR is expanding eagle there has been no further cuts at AA or we would see additional furloughs of both pilots and flight attendants.

MiAAmi -

Let me put it to you another way. AA continues to restore service cut after 9-11 and beyond, however, the majority of the "restored" service is via Eagle. Therefore, there would not necessarily be additional furloughs (tell that to the former TWA pilots in STL furloughed 3/1/04) but no large scale recalls, either.

It has been my experience that Jim, aka jimntx, is spot on in his observations. I have watched and read his postings going back to the APFA bbs days and I can say without hesitation, he is well informed.

I understand that you want to project AA in the most favorable light, but give me a break. Take off the rose colored glasses for a moment and look around. APFA regularly announces that 5760 AA flight attendants are on furlough. That number alone speaks volumes about AA.

 

[MiAAmi]

AA continues to shift flying from AA to AE, and I think it will accelerate as AE gets the 70-seat CRJs.

This is not true. Although AMR is expanding eagle there has been no further cuts at AA or we would see additional furloughs of both pilots and flight attendants.

MiAAmi -

Let me put it to you another way. AA continues to restore service cut after 9-11 and beyond, however, the majority of the "restored" service is via Eagle. Therefore, there would not necessarily be additional furloughs (tell that to the former TWA pilots in STL furloughed 3/1/04) but no large scale recalls, either.

It has been my experience that Jim, aka jimntx, is spot on in his observations. I have watched and read his postings going back to the APFA bbs days and I can say without hesitation, he is well informed.

I understand that you want to project AA in the most favorable light, but give me a break. Take off the rose colored glasses for a moment and look around. APFA regularly announces that 5760 AA flight attendants are on furlough. That number alone speaks volumes about AA.

You can back your buddie up all you want but fact is that there is no "shifting" of flying from AA to AE right now. Rose colored glasses are not needed to see this.

 

[mweiss]

Rumor has it that Sir Richard Branson and his new Virgin America will be bidding for the shuttle, and he has a LOT more money and financing than AA. Whoever buys those slots is going to pay a premium way over actual market value which is what AMR did with TWA to keep anyone else from buying them.

I'm more and more certain with each passing day that US would sell those slots in exchange for equity in VirginUSA, and VirginUSA needs someone in the US to own enough of the company to keep it legal.

 

[mweiss]

You can back your buddie up all you want but fact is that there is no "shifting" of flying from AA to AE right now. Rose colored glasses are not needed to see this.

It's a question of semantics. Depending on how you look at it, either perspective holds water.

 

[MiAAmi]

The fact is the company dropped the needed amount of pilot furloughs for this year. Eagle may be expanding but not at the added expence of AA.

 

[jimntx]

If you know this already why do you perpetuate the division in ranks? Isn't that playing right into the companies plan?

I fail to see where stating the obvious is a "perpetuation of division in the ranks."
That's the problem with APFA now. The membership wants to live in a fantasy world that everything is fine and any suggestion otherwise is disloyal.

Ok, how's this?
I'm so very glad that JW ignored those evil TWA suggestions for concessions that might have prevented my being furloughed.
Oh, and I'll be eternally grateful that he voluntarily gave up furlough pay when the company wasn't even asking for it.
And, I can hardly wait to get back to short layovers and 6-leg days.
Gee, I wish I could work in Miami where everything is perfect all the time.
And, the TWA people just need to get over it and move on with their lives because JW will prevent the judge from giving them anything.
And, I'm glad that JW won by a landslide. Four less votes and he might not have a mandate to continue screwing over the membership for the next four years, and have to listen to the membership.

Is that enough? Or, do I need to add more to show that I'm not perpetuating division in the ranks?