WN Cuts Some Long-Haul Routes

[ramper_in_las]

UAL has reduced flights plenty of times. Many airlines have reduced flights. However, this is a big first for SWA. The experiment into transcons obviously is not working and thus the path of unrestrained growth is showing signs of breaking. This is great news for the real airlines that offer transcon service. Perhaps the fact that business travelers do not want the "SWA Effect" on a transcon and prefer a first class cabin and some amenities over "Ding Dong Airlines" gimmicks.

Just hope this is only the first wave of cuts by SWA.

DUDE the transcon works with the right market. LAS long hauls are full every flight everyday. $$$ LAS Crew base opening soon and LAS currently running with 230 daily departures with more on the horizon. DING! DING! DING!
So for example from previous post WN is cutting SNA to MDW. Which works out ok. If someone from orange county that wants to go to Chicago, take that hour flight to LAS and then take one of the 15 daily departures to MDW. Think outside the box mags I know its difficult. First Class vs. The Frugal Shopper. I am going with frugal everytime with a tough economy. Southwest Effect is in full effect!!!

 

[BuffaloJoe]

DUDE the transcon works with the right market. LAS long hauls are full every flight everyday. $$$ LAS Crew base opening soon and LAS currently running with 230 daily departures with more on the horizon. DING! DING! DING!
So for example from previous post WN is cutting SNA to MDW. Which works out ok. If someone from orange county that wants to go to Chicago, take that hour flight to LAS and then take one of the 15 daily departures to MDW. Think outside the box mags I know its difficult. First Class vs. The Frugal Shopper. I am going with frugal everytime with a tough economy. Southwest Effect is in full effect!!!

Connecting in LAS when the flights are always full? No more LAX-BWI or PHL. If the LAX is full too LAS and LAS is full to BWI and PHL, where are they going to be able to get available seats? Connecting in other cities would be more like it, such as PHX, but then they still overloading the PHX-East flights. PHX-EAST is almost as long as doing LAX-EAST.

I agree with the logic, but the few flights they are stopping isn't going to help WN customers who want to fly from Coast to Coast. That is OK for if it increases the shorter flights. Actually that is the way to do the business. Leave the Trans Cons to the others and grab all the short to medium hauls. More flight ops, more money. If your gonna get $99 for PHL-LAX, Your better off flying PHL-MDW for $79-89 and that plane would get more turns in. The amount that WN would lose on trans cons will easy double up on the shorter runs, just that they must choose the right pairings.

 

[Rhino]

Having Magasu tell me my company sucks is crushing. As crushing as when Rosie O'Donnell call me "fat and stupid."

 

[CO738]

Connecting in LAS when the flights are always full? No more LAX-BWI or PHL. If the LAX is full too LAS and LAS is full to BWI and PHL, where are they going to be able to get available seats? Connecting in other cities would be more like it, such as PHX, but then they still overloading the PHX-East flights. PHX-EAST is almost as long as doing LAX-EAST.

I agree with the logic, but the few flights they are stopping isn't going to help WN customers who want to fly from Coast to Coast. That is OK for if it increases the shorter flights. Actually that is the way to do the business. Leave the Trans Cons to the others and grab all the short to medium hauls. More flight ops, more money. If your gonna get $99 for PHL-LAX, Your better off flying PHL-MDW for $79-89 and that plane would get more turns in. The amount that WN would lose on trans cons will easy double up on the shorter runs, just that they must choose the right pairings.

I made this exact point a few weeks ago. I even did the math. See: http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...=35809&st=0

Again, good point.

WN is also cutting capacity on PHL-PIT and PIT - MDW.

Now, here is WN's problem with the eastern seaboard:

A DAL based jet may fly 8 segments/day.... 137 seats at, say, an AVERAGE fare of $100/seat -- that is $13,700 per segment in fare revenue + cargo ops, or $109,600.00 max/day

OK, a LAS - PHL run takes all day - they might be able to squeeze in a LAS-SAN run into the day by grace of better turn times. So, 2 segments at an average fare of $150 ... errrr that's only a max of $41,100/day -- if you add a short hop (2 segments) $68,500 MAX PER DAY -- THAT IS A HUUUUGGGEEE LOSS IN REVENUE.


THIS IS WHY B6 CUT EAST-WEST CAPACITY!!!! SO THEY ADDED FLIGHTS TO THE ISLANDS!!! Guess what, similar block times, BUT HIGHER FARES. It's still not as good as 8 short-hops, but MUCH BETTER.

PLUS, WN runs very light loads... US's E-Jets, which manipulate CAPACITY, FREQUENCY and CONNECTIONS really hurts WN's competitive edge in PHL, even if their product is superior. PLUS, business travelers like the ideas of earning miles for upgrades for that big annual trip/vacation to Europe... WN does well in TX AZ CA for these reasons, but poorly in other markets.

QUOTE(CO738 @ Jun 1 2007, 04:54 PM) *

Again, good point.

WN is also cutting capacity on PHL-PIT and PIT - MDW.

Now, here is WN's problem with the eastern seaboard:

A DAL based jet may fly 8 segments/day.... 137 seats at, say, an AVERAGE fare of $100/seat -- that is $13,700 per segment in fare revenue + cargo ops, or $109,600.00 max/day

OK, a LAS - PHL run takes all day - they might be able to squeeze in a LAS-SAN run into the day by grace of better turn times. So, 2 segments at an average fare of $150 ... errrr that's only a max of $41,100/day -- if you add a short hop (2 segments) $68,500 MAX PER DAY -- THAT IS A HUUUUGGGEEE LOSS IN REVENUE.
THIS IS WHY B6 CUT EAST-WEST CAPACITY!!!! SO THEY ADDED FLIGHTS TO THE ISLANDS!!! Guess what, similar block times, BUT HIGHER FARES. It's still not as good as 8 short-hops, but MUCH BETTER.

PLUS, WN runs very light loads... US's E-Jets, which manipulate CAPACITY, FREQUENCY and CONNECTIONS really hurts WN's competitive edge in PHL, even if their product is superior. PLUS, business travelers like the ideas of earning miles for upgrades for that big annual trip/vacation to Europe... WN does well in TX AZ CA for these reasons, but poorly in other markets.



I am waiting for someone to say they save money on over-head, landing fees, even snacks -- but this does not add up 50 Grand. Granted, I do not work in the airline industry (I wish I did and am trying hard, nor do I have an MBA - I just finished my undergrad work.) however, I understand how business works, and in a world on VERY slim margins, running a 73G across country doesn't work. This is why a 57 or 67 is a better choice.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

This surely is a "tinkering" with the system schedule.

I'm guessing that we will all see WN "re-concentrating" on proven($$) city pairs...PLUS.....more Interaction with ATA.


NH/BB's

 

[TechBoy]

however, I understand how business works, and in a world on VERY slim margins, running a 73G across country doesn't work. This is why a 57 or 67 is a better choice.

I agree with everything you say except this. The type of plane is not particularly relevant. Indeed, a larger plane would only compound the problem. The problem is that the LCCs need very low fares to attract enough transcon business -- often at RPMs below their costs. 73Gs tend to have lower ASM costs than 757s or 767s, so they are the better choice.

 

[magsau]

You're right! So now that WN is off of PHL-LAX/OAK(SFO), when will UA be bringing back complimentary hot meals cold meals snack boxes to those flights?

In UA coach class, the equivilant to "ding dong airlines" regular cabin, UAL does offer snack boxes for the passengers. What type of snack boxes does DDA offer its pax? In First Class...not sure where that cabin is on DDA...but in the first class cabin there is complimentary FOOD and booze. Yes that is FOOD served with linens and china- don't even get that on Delta domestic F class. So the average business man,it appears, will when given the option take the F class seat over the DDA offering.

As for the price increases. Ther are too many competing one stop routes to raise the price too much. Heck if the prices could have been raised, don't you think SWA would have done so and stayed in the markets? Or are they just tired of getting their tales kicked by the legacy carriers?

 

[lowfareair]

In UA coach class, the equivilant to "ding dong airlines" regular cabin, UAL does offer snack boxes for the passengers(for $5)</b>

Fixed that for ya.

What type of snack boxes does DDA offer its pax?

And, get this... Southwest even gives them for FREE!

In First Class...not sure where that cabin is on DDA

Southwest doesn't need it apparently... they don't have a shitty coach product they need to make up for.

but in the first class cabin there is complimentary FOOD and booze. Yes that is FOOD(...)

HOLY ####! FOOD?! COMPLIMENTARY?! So now I don't have to trek to Newark for good service on CO (with free FOOD in COACH) to places WN doesn't fly! I just have to pay an extra couple grand or so to get it!

served with linens and china- don't even get that on Delta domestic F class.

Never said UA's F is ####, but you really have to stretch if you are comparing it to DL's F. Does UA give out unlimited u/gs to elites? That is one reason that DL's is so shitty.

So the average business man,it appears, will when given the option take the F class seat over the DDA offering.

So you are now saying that to get better service than WN on UA, you need to spend the money and buy F? Assuming your employer will be willing to pony up that extra dough, that is.

As for the price increases. Ther are too many competing one stop routes to raise the price too much. Heck if the prices could have been raised, don't you think SWA would have done so and stayed in the markets? Or are they just tired of getting their tales kicked by the legacy carriers?

*Looks at WN's Q1 earnings... Looks at UA's Q1 earnings*

Oh, right. B-b-b-but it would have been different if Southwest only made bad business decisions!

 

[KCFlyer]

So you are now saying that to get better service than WN on UA, you need to spend the money and buy F? Assuming your employer will be willing to pony up that extra dough, that is.

Pretty much, yes. But...woe be to the 35th businessman who craved a fine airline meal on china in the F class cabin...there's only 34 seats on a 767...so he's back with the cheezy snacks with the 200 other folks in coach.

 

[Flying Photog]

If the LAX is full too LAS and LAS is full to BWI and PHL, where are they going to be able to get available seats? Connecting in other cities would be more like it, such as PHX, but then they still overloading the PHX-East flights.

Overloading? Southwest's aircraft (for the most part) hold 137 people and everyone gets a seat. You make it seem like people are standing in the aisle holding a rail.

:down:

 

[magsau]

Southwest only made bad business decisions!

Well SWA is curbing growth, dropping transcons and talking of selling planes. You must be right that things are going as planned.

No problem, I am sure Ding Dong Airlines is going to do something really novel. How about putting power ports on the aircraft, so the only entertainment is not watching the back of the head of the guy in front of you. If you want a nice transcon experience UAL offers a nice 3 class service from JFK to SFO and LAX. Or you can ride DDA via ISP, MDT, PIT, CMH, MDW, MCI, OKC, TUL, LBB, AUS, ABQ, PHX, ONT. 4 plane changes and 23 hours of travel but hey it's CHEAP!

When I commuted to work on my last trip I walked into the terminal behind a family of 5. They appeared to have just gotten out of bed as the kids were in their PJ's (of course they were teenagers) Mom and Dad were not much better dressed. Each had a roller bag that was overflowing and none appeared to be able to "drive" it in any manner toward the direction they were going. This troup spread out in a flank position so that no one could pass. As I am the rest of the airport followed these folks up the ramp to the terminal it was a mix of moaning and groaning fits from the kids and parents. As we neared the end of the hallway the group blocked all access as they stood with the deer in the headlights look and shouted to no one in particular. "Where is Southwest". One of the other employees that was in the pack of people following this group yelled, "They don't fly to this airport!" The look on their faces was priceless. These guys had gone to the WRONG airport. It was definitely a DING look on their face.

 

[KCFlyer]

Or you can ride DDA via ISP, MDT, PIT, CMH, MDW, MCI, OKC, TUL, LBB, AUS, ABQ, PHX, ONT. 4 plane changes and 23 hours of travel but hey it's CHEAP!

Care to point out the 4 plane change routings from the SWA schedule? I am only able to find one plane change.

The look on their faces was priceless. These guys had gone to the WRONG airport. It was definitely a DING look on their face.

Not quite as priceless as the first class passengers who watched one of their fellow first class passengers defecate on a serving cart in the top class of one of those three class UAL jets. I'll take a teenager in PJ's over an upper crust businessman with his pants around his ankles making a doodie on the serving cart. Oh yeah...and what about those "models" who had a nicotine fit on United.

And even after bankruptcy, UAL has a higher CASM than any other airline...tied with midwest, who for the time being, is offering "economy plus" in their entire cabin...what's your plan for addressing that? Reregulation? Isn't it interesting that the airline you joined in the year that deregulation was passed was the only major carrier to support it. Yet somehow...it's Southwest's fault that the gravy train ended the year you started.

 

[lowfareair]

Well SWA is curbing growth, dropping transcons and talking of selling planes. You must be right that things are going as planned.

Woah, woah, woah. Are you saying that Southwest isn't going to stick to the business plan they drew up 3-5 years ago? They are making changes to respond to the market? Say it ain't so!

No problem, I am sure Ding Dong Airlines is going to do something really novel. How about putting power ports on the aircraft, so the only entertainment is not watching the back of the head of the guy in front of you.

iPod, Book, portable DVD player. All make up the difference in price between a single last-minute flight on WN and your lovely operation. As for power ports, it appears that Untied doesn't offer them in domestic Y, either.

If you want a nice transcon experience UAL offers a nice 3 class service from JFK to SFO and LAX. Or you can ride DDA via ISP, MDT, PIT, CMH, MDW, MCI, OKC, TUL, LBB, AUS, ABQ, PHX, ONT. 4 plane changes and 23 hours of travel but hey it's CHEAP!

I guess that's magsau for "I can't disagree with the fact that you need to compare UA F to beat WN Y, so I'll make fun of them."

When I commuted to work on my last trip I walked into the terminal behind a family of 5. They appeared to have just gotten out of bed as the kids were in their PJ's (of course they were teenagers) Mom and Dad were not much better dressed. Each had a roller bag that was overflowing and none appeared to be able to "drive" it in any manner toward the direction they were going. This troup spread out in a flank position so that no one could pass. As I am the rest of the airport followed these folks up the ramp to the terminal it was a mix of moaning and groaning fits from the kids and parents. As we neared the end of the hallway the group blocked all access as they stood with the deer in the headlights look and shouted to no one in particular. "Where is Southwest". One of the other employees that was in the pack of people following this group yelled, "They don't fly to this airport!" The look on their faces was priceless. These guys had gone to the WRONG airport. It was definitely a DING look on their face.

So you are telling me that they managed to not only go to the wrong airport, but also get past security and walk through the airport without looking at a single departure screen? Or that five of them somehow were wide enough to prevent anybody from walking around them in the check-in desks area? Pray tell, what airport was this? LIE? :down:

 

[magsau]

Care to point out the 4 plane change routings from the SWA schedule? I am only able to find one plane change.

Not quite as priceless as the first class passengers who watched one of their fellow first class passengers defecate on a serving cart in the top class of one of those three class UAL jets.

Yet somehow...it's Southwest's fault that the gravy train ended the year you started.

4 plane change? Wasn't SWA known as "pavement air" for a long time. You know if there was pavement they landed on it. Of course that whole pavement thing might have been take too literally by some........

You must be related to Gerald Finneran as you really like to talk about him. Hey he was drunk and he was arrested, convicted and fined. It was pretty much the average episode of "airline" if you follow that program. I know we have not lived up to the antics of SWA at UAL but hey our passenger have tried.

Gravy train? I would not consider this career a gravy train. Furlough, Strike, 9/11, BK, and the most annoying bit of all is listening to those clowns from "Sowwwwwwwesss" talking on the radio. Give me CPDLC in the domestic operation and I would come back and fly it. Until they silence those guys I will be content to fly the oceans.

While it has not been a gravy train, I do enjoy my job, I like the people I work with and the places we go and most of all I still enjoy flying airplanes.

 

[KCFlyer]

4 plane change? Wasn't SWA known as "pavement air" for a long time. You know if there was pavement they landed on it. Of course that whole pavement thing might have been take too literally by some........

Several YEARS ago, SWA had three stops. But it's been years. Now, one on the east coast can usually get a one stop change on Southwest...just like most folks have to go to Chicago or Denver on Untied.

You must be related to Gerald Finneran as you really like to talk about him. Hey he was drunk and he was arrested, convicted and fined. It was pretty much the average episode of "airline" if you follow that program. I know we have not lived up to the antics of SWA at UAL but hey our passenger have tried.

Your paint your passengers as better than this "white trash" that flies Southwest. Just pointing out to you that, much as you might not like it...many of your "first class" passengers lack...class.

Gravy train? I would not consider this career a gravy train. Furlough, Strike, 9/11, BK, and the most annoying bit of all is listening to those clowns from "Sowwwwwwwesss" talking on the radio. Give me CPDLC in the domestic operation and I would come back and fly it. Until they silence those guys I will be content to fly the oceans.

Ah...my wild eyed pilot sky god...when you joined UAL in 1978, you joined looking at the "glory days" of airline travel. The fact that you started in the year of deregulation...supported by the airline that hired you as the janitor on a 737 back then...isn't Southwest's fault.

While it has not been a gravy train, I do enjoy my job, I like the people I work with and the places we go and most of all I still enjoy flying airplanes.

I showed my brother (Colorado resident) some of your posts. He's decided to change planes on AA or take Frontier rather than United. I tried telling him that you only flew the oceans, but he decided he'd rather not risk having someone with that kind of attitude in command of a jet he was on. You may enjoy flying the planes...but you really might explore Fed Ex or someone...because the way you post on these boards does nothing to make a person want to be a passenger on a UAL jet. Packages on the other hand, don't seem to mind if a horses ass is in the left seat.