Winning Over The Customers?

[KCFlyer]

KCFLYER

Do you post on flyertalk under the handle www.iflyswa.com by any chance? :blink:

[post="173873"][/post]​

Nope...that's not me. I had an afterthought to whlinder's question...Most people who fly on Southwest aren't aware of their rules and regs about tickets. They bought a ticket and expected a seat on the plane. They might know it's nonrefundable, but should they call the airline to find out what their options are, most of them will hang up and be pleasantly surprised to have heard no change fees, good for one year, and amount can be credited to somebody else. Compare that to someone calling US and hearing "rules is rules", and no it's not refundable, and no, it's not transferable, and yes, there is a $100 fee to change it. I would imagine that they hang up with a very bitter taste in their mouth.

 

[whlinder]

Oh we agree what non refundable means. And I'm not even suggesting that the rule is stupid. Please tell me what I just bought:

Well I'm not Bear but I can tell ya...

PENALTY
CANCELLATIONS - CANCELLATIONS PERMITTED - CHANGES - CHANGES PERMITTED

Fully refundable, fully changeable. Pretty clear, as I'm sure you know.

- NOTE - STANDBY --- STANDY ON TICKETES DAYS OF TRAVEL IS PERMITTED - ALL FARE RULES OF TICKED FARE MUST BE MET.

You can stand-by for an earlier flight on this fare (one would hope so if it allows changes!) provided you continue to meet all the rules. This comes in to play if the fare has time of day restrictions on it, which this fare does not.

RES/TKTG
SGMTS USING THIS RULE MUST BE CONFIRMED.

You can't purchase a RT fare without confirming your return flight. IE, you can't decide which outbound flight you want and tell US "I'll get back to you when I decide when to come back, but price a RT fare for me anyway."

MAX STAY
RETURN TRVL MUST COMMENCE NO LATER THAN 12 MONTHS. MEASURED FROM DPTR FROM GATEWAY TO LAST STOPOVER POINT.

This must be an international ticket. When your flight on the primary portion of your travel departs, this is the date that your maximum stay is measure from. So if your ticket is DCA-PHL-FRA-MXP, the date of the PHL-FRA flight is used to measure how long you can stay before returning from your last stopover.

SEASONS
NO SEASON RESTRICTIONS APPLY.
BLACKOUTS
NO BLACKOUT RESTRICTIONS APPLY.
FLT APPL
NO FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS APPLY.

This fare has no seasonality, blackout dates, and it can be flown by any carrier (unless the routing specifies which ones, which only Expedia usally publishes)

STOPOVERS
A FREE STOPOVER IS PERMITTED. A STOPOVER OCCURS WHEN THE PASSENGER DOES NOT DEPART AN INTERMEDIATE POINT WITHIN 24 HOURS. *** AN ADDITIONAL STOPOVER IS PERMITTED AT USD 50 - CHILD DISCOUNTS APPLY - WILL NOT AUTOPRICE.

Basically if you stay at a point along your initerary for 24 hours, it counts as a stopover. (Not counting the destination, or since we're into fare rules here, the "turnaround" or "fare break" point. lol) The provisions are pretty clear. Stopovers don't autoprice, so an agent will have to book it.

TICKET RESTRICTIONS
NO SALES RESTRICTION APPLY.
SURCHGS
SECURITY SURCHG OF USD 8.00 APPLIES PER ADT/CHD/INF IN EACH DIRECTION. APPLIES TO TRANSATLANTIC INTL SECTOR.

Some sale restrictions restrict where you can buy the ticket or what type of payment is allowed. Each transatlantic flight you take will be charged 8.00USD for adults, children and infants.

DISCOUNTS
100 PCT OF THE ADT FARE IS CHARGED FOR A CNN PSGR 2 THRU 11 YRS OF AGE. CNN PSGR MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL SGMTS BY AN ADT PSGR TRAVELING IN THE SAME COMPARTMENT. - - - - 100 PCT OF THE ADT FARE IS CHARGED FOR AN INS PSGR UNDER 2 YRS OF AGE. INS PSGR MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL SGMTS BY AN ADT PSGR TRAVELING IN THE SAME COMPARTMENT. - - - - 100 PCT OF THE ADT FARE IS CHARGED FOR A UNN PSGR 5 THRU 11 YRS OF AGE. PSGR MAY BE UNACCOMPANIED. - - - - 10 PCT OF THE ADT FARE IS CHARGED FOR AN INF PSGR UNDER 2 YRS OF AGE NOT OCCUPYING A SEAT. ONLY 1 PSGR IS PERMITTED AT THIS DISCOUNT PER ADT PSGR. INF PSGR MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL SGMTS BY AN ADT PSGR TRAVELING IN THE SAME COMPARTMENT. *** TOUR CONDUCTOR/ SALES AGENTS DISCOUNTS DO NOT APPLY - ALL OTHER DISCOUNTS DO NOT APPLY.

CNN=accompanied child, aged 2-11. They don't get any discounts (Charge 100% of the ADT fare) and must travel with an adult.
INS = infant in seat, under 2. They don't get any discounts and must travel with an adult.
UNN = unaccompanied child, aged 5-11. They don't get any discounts.
INF = infant without a seat, under 2. AKA a Lap infant, they have to pay 10% of the fare, and only 1 may travel per adult.
Tour conductors, sales agents and anyone else cannot discount this fare.

REROUTE
SEE PENALTY.

This doesn't specify voluntary or involuntary but since this fare has no penalties it doesn't matter.

TRANSFERS
UNLIMITED TRANSFERS AS PERMITTED ON THE ROUTING/MPM.

Transfers are plane changes. And you can make as many of them as you want, depending on what the routing says. MPM is maximum permitted mileage. Every city pair has a mileage published that is the most miles one is allowed to fly on the fare without paying a surcharge. Some fares don't apply the MPM, some do.

COMBINATIONS
CARRIER / RULE / FARE CIRCLE OPEN ROUND BASIS TRIP JAW TRIP SAME / SAME / SAME C C C SAME / SAME / DIFF C C C SAME / DIFF / SAME C C C SAME / DIFF / DIFF C C C DIFF / SAME / SAME C C C DIFF / SAME / DIFF C C C DIFF / DIFF / SAME C C C DIFF / DIFF / DIFF C C C Y / PERMITTED N / NOT PERMITTED - / DOES NOT APPLY C / SEE TEXT FOR CONDITIONS CONDITIONS APPLICABLE TO ROUND TRIP/CIRCLE TRIP/SINGLE OR DOUBLE OPEN JAW - -MAY BE COMBINED WITH ANY ONE WAY/ROUND TRIP SUPER SPECIAL APEX TYPE/NONREFUNDABLE APEX TYPE/ADVANCE PURCHASE EXCURSION TYPE/REGULAR EXCURSION TYPE/SUPER SPECIAL INSTANT PURCHASE TYPE/NONREFUNDABLE INSTANT PURCHASE TYPE/INSTANT PURCHASE EXCURSION TYPE FARES GOVERNED BY ANY RULE IN IPRA/IPRAI VIA ANY CARRIER. -MOST RESTRICTIVE CONDITIONS APPLY. ADDITIONAL CONDITIONS APPLY ROUND TRIP - -PERMITTED. CIRCLE TRIP - -PERMITTED. OPEN JAW - -SINGLE OPEN JAW PERMITTED AT EITHER ORIGIN OR DESTINATION. DOUBLE OPEN JAW PERMITTED. END-ON-END - -PERMITTED. TRAVEL MUST BE VIA THE FARE COMBINATION POINT. CO-TERMINALS - -THE FOLLOWING GROUPS OF CITIES ARE CONSIDERED TO BE THE SAME POINT BUR - SNA - LAX - ONT, EWR - HPN - NYC - ISP, OAK - SJC - SFO, BED - BOS, BWI - WAS, FLL - MIA, ORF - PHF.
OPEN RTN
ALLOWED.

Oh now the fun part, combinations!
I wrote a long post on how combinations work in the US forum on Flyertalk a while ago. These all autoprice but I will try to explain it as concisely and in english as best I can. (I also hate how the text is displayed by Sabre for these)
Basically you can fly under the BE3 fare basis on the outbound and another fare basis on your return, based on these rules. You know what RT, Circle Trips and Open Jaws are. The next part (Super Special instant purchase, etc) are basically names that US assigns the fare basis codes. Each fare basis has one. There are tons of these, and the industry is supposed to follow a standard on them. They are assigned depending on how restrictive the fare is. The co-terminals describe which points count as the same for the combinations. What that means is that WAS-LON-BWI is a RT and not a Single open jaw because WAS and BWI are co-terminals. But all this stuff autoprices, and rarely does this category ever need to be consulted.

REFUNDS
SEE PENALTY.
CO-TERMINALS
-THE FOLLOWING GROUPS OF CITIES ARE CONSIDERED TO BE THE SAME POINT BUR - SNA - LAX - ONT, EWR - HPN - NYC - ISP, OAK - SJC - SFO, BED - BOS, BWI - WAS, FLL - MIA, ORF - PHF.
INTL CONST
MAY BE COMBINED WITH APPLICABLE ARBITRARIES.

Refunds, simple enough, it was already listed that it is refundable. I just explained the point of the co-terminals, and these might be listed for standby purposes. Arbitraries are fares that are filed to reduce the number of fares that must be filed. (Lol that sentence didn't make much sense). Example: say US has 50 destinations in the U.S. and 10 European points. If they want to file 20 fares between each U.S. point and European point, they must file 50 x 10 x 20 = 10,000 fares.
But, if they want to file fares from PHL and CLT to Europe, and make all the other fares a certain dollar amount higher, they file 20 fares x 2 (PHL/CLT) x 10 = 400 fares and then file arbitraries from PHL/CLT to the other 48 U.S. points. And by filing another 100 or so Arbitraries, they produce 10000 distinct fares while only filing 500.

What, no needed explanation for the HIP rule or booking code provisions or even (my favorite) fare-by-rule? C'mon Bob, don't let me off easy!

I hope some of that makes sense. If I am wrong in anything I posted above, please feel free to correct me (anyone) as I always love to learn more about how the GDSes work and how the rules autoprice.

 

[longing4piedmont]

Well I'm not Bear but I can tell ya...

WOW, thanks for taking the time to explain all of this. As much as I fly, I struggle with the rules often. ( Which at one point was the basis for this thread). I will refer to it in the future.

 

[whlinder]

KCFlyer, I totally agree with your thoughts on customers being pleasantly surprised to find no $100 change/cancel fee. But at the same time, how many of them remember that $100 the next time they buy a ticket, especially if US and its $100 change fee are $100 less than WN? I guess the key question is, Is $100 in revenue now worth the potential loss in the future?

Piney, the text you quoted for the min. stay was the full text. It also comes abbreviated. Using that as an example that the legacies believe in the "customer as the enemy" is ridiculous. FL, HP, TZ all use the same system to create rule text for fares. WN does on some of their fares as well. Their rules might not be as complicated as US', but they use the exact same text. In the end the text is nothing more than a description of the rules that have been programmed in to the fare. No customer NEEDS to see their minimum stay rules spelled out. It comes from the same system that has been in use for years because 1) airlines don't have money to invest in new ones and 2) this is still a highly regulated industry by governments, who want to see rule text to monitor fares.

edited to reply to your most recent post Piney-

You have very nicely made my argument for me. Do you think anyone below a US 3 can fully comprehend what you so eloquently explained?

Of course not. What's worse is that far too many of the people who put that stuff out there don't even know what it means.

Not to be to brutal but the rules need to be written so an idiot can understand them. If you watch Airline then you'll know what i mean.

Oh I watch Airline, when I can. And I know what you mean. But in the end, the rules text is nothing more than a description of what is programmed into the fare. It comes in abbreviated format that makes more sense if it ever needs to be consulted. Usually only changes/cancellation text needs to be looked at. The GDS does the rest (and is starting to do more and more of the changes and cancellations). Is it all a pain to look through? Absolutely, especially if you don't understand it. Will it change? Rules can be made simpler, like LCC rules, but as long as there are government regulations on tariffs there will be rules that read like government regulations... IMHO.

 

[KCFlyer]

KCFlyer, I totally agree with your thoughts on customers being pleasantly surprised to find no $100 change/cancel fee. But at the same time, how many of them remember that $100 the next time they buy a ticket, especially if US and its $100 change fee are $100 less than WN? I guess the key question is, Is $100 in revenue now worth the potential loss in the future?

[post="173887"][/post]​

My guess is that it will have a bigger impact than you think. And, given my example of PHL-MCI, when they book on SWA, they will see $439 and "fully refundable" in the same column. When they look at US, they will see a regional jet for $429 - and nothing to say if it's refundable or not. Woe be those who book US and then have to make a change. I can hear the call now..."But Southwest was only $10 more and their ticket was fully refundable"... And after that happens, I'll betcha that the customer most certainly will remember when it comes time for their NEXT flight. But....rules is rules.