Will UA and U merge in CH11?

[DCAflyer]

767jets spewed:

Um... Actually you're wrong again. United is close to finalizing over $1.5 Billion in DIP financing, if it is needed. In addition to that we have STAR members and some local governments lining up to loan us additional $.

Don't try to seal our fate just yet.

Sounds to me like a you're a bitter person looking for some company in your misery. Don't count on us joining you in your hole.

Once again, DIFFERENT AIRLINES... DIFFERENT ASSETS... DIFFERENT OUTCOME.

Maybe you should stop peeking over our shoulder and trying to scare the good folks here at United, and start worring about your own.



DCAflyer replies:

I am not wrong. You need to wake up from your dream if you think UAL is going to float in and out of bankruptcy. You're looking at about a year plus you will emerge with highly contentious labor issues. How do you know UAL is close to obtaining DIP financing? I don't doubt that's true, but I do doubt that you have any inside information in this regard. Even so, how fast do you think UAL will go through $1.5 billion in bankruptcy. And you said the DIP financing is close to being lined up "if it's needed!" That shows your ignorance. Of course it's needed... otherwise it's a C-7 liquidation.

The ATSB correctly said that UAL's reorg plan is not viable, so the company has to start from scratch if it hopes to successfully emerge from C-11 (and by successfully, I mean with a viable cost and revenue structure).

And what orafice did you pull out the line about star alliance members and local governments lining up to loan UAL money? That is NOT happening. UAL is begging, but so far not star alliance offers, and read my lips... NO LOCAL GOVERMENT IS GOING TO LOAN UAL MONEY AFTER THE ATSB TURNED UAL DOWN. What local government has the kind of disposable funds needed to pull UAL out?

But I guess your dreaming is easier for you to take than reality. But just the same, you might want to educate yourself on the process. It gonna get really bumpy for you, 767.

And I am not trying to scare the good people of UAL. But you all need to face the gravity of your situation if you hope to make it through this next chapter in your company's history. I am not a bitter person and I am not miserable. I am just facing reality and would advise you to do the same.

DCAflyer

 

[DCAflyer]

767jets spewed:

Um... Actually you're wrong again. United is close to finalizing over $1.5 Billion in DIP financing, if it is needed. In addition to that we have STAR members and some local governments lining up to loan us additional $.

Don't try to seal our fate just yet.

Sounds to me like a you're a bitter person looking for some company in your misery. Don't count on us joining you in your hole.

Once again, DIFFERENT AIRLINES... DIFFERENT ASSETS... DIFFERENT OUTCOME.

Maybe you should stop peeking over our shoulder and trying to scare the good folks here at United, and start worring about your own.



DCAflyer replies:

I am not wrong. You need to wake up from your dream if you think UAL is going to float in and out of bankruptcy. You're looking at about a year plus you will emerge with highly contentious labor issues. How do you know UAL is close to obtaining DIP financing? I don't doubt that's true, but I do doubt that you have any inside information in this regard. Even so, how fast do you think UAL will go through $1.5 billion in bankruptcy. And you said the DIP financing is close to being lined up "if it's needed!" That shows your ignorance. Of course it's needed... otherwise it's a C-7 liquidation.

The ATSB correctly said that UAL's reorg plan is not viable, so the company has to start from scratch if it hopes to successfully emerge from C-11 (and by successfully, I mean with a viable cost and revenue structure).

And what orafice did you pull out the line about star alliance members and local governments lining up to loan UAL money? That is NOT happening. UAL is begging, but so far not star alliance offers, and read my lips... NO LOCAL GOVERMENT IS GOING TO LOAN UAL MONEY AFTER THE ATSB TURNED UAL DOWN. What local government has the kind of disposable funds needed to pull UAL out?

But I guess your dreaming is easier for you to take than reality. But just the same, you might want to educate yourself on the process. It gonna get really bumpy for you, 767.

And I am not trying to scare the good people of UAL. But you all need to face the gravity of your situation if you hope to make it through this next chapter in your company's history. I am not a bitter person and I am not miserable. I am just facing reality and would advise you to do the same.

DCAflyer

 

[Winglet]

The problem as I see it is that U has an irrational fleet and route structure. U was losing money even when the economy was booming, and the rest of the airlines were profiting handsomely. U doesn't have a worldwide network. It's been run like management can't or won't decide if they want to run a major airline or a regional one - but with the cost structure among the tops in the industry.

UAL's fundamentals (fleet and route) are basically ok, with it's main problems being boneheaded leadership Goodwin for the past 10 years.

US Air's fundamentals stink and they've had slick foxes like W&G running the place with their own dubious objectives in mind. Just don't see how Siegel is going to turn out the required profit in the required time frame. MAYBE, if the economy comes ROARING back . . . . but that's looking less and less likely. War in Iraq won't help either.

With tons of overcapacity in the system likely to continue, any airline getting well anytime soon is a stretch. Even working for regional wages and no pension might not help.

At least, IMH and obviously non-expert opinion.

 

[Winglet]

The problem as I see it is that U has an irrational fleet and route structure. U was losing money even when the economy was booming, and the rest of the airlines were profiting handsomely. U doesn't have a worldwide network. It's been run like management can't or won't decide if they want to run a major airline or a regional one - but with the cost structure among the tops in the industry.

UAL's fundamentals (fleet and route) are basically ok, with it's main problems being boneheaded leadership Goodwin for the past 10 years.

US Air's fundamentals stink and they've had slick foxes like W&G running the place with their own dubious objectives in mind. Just don't see how Siegel is going to turn out the required profit in the required time frame. MAYBE, if the economy comes ROARING back . . . . but that's looking less and less likely. War in Iraq won't help either.

With tons of overcapacity in the system likely to continue, any airline getting well anytime soon is a stretch. Even working for regional wages and no pension might not help.

At least, IMH and obviously non-expert opinion.

 

[fatburger]

and it's pretty obvious your not an expert.

U mades its share of money in the late 90's until the summer of 1999. That's when Wolf started closing MX bases and we started seeing massive cancellations at the end of each month because of lack of crews. A combination of things led to U's demise.

As a furloughed U employee let me give the fine employees of UAL a little advice:

Prepare now! I received my furlough notice the day before Thankgiving last year for a March 2nd furlough. I thought it would never happen. My head was in the sand. If UAL does file Chapter 11 and you don't have a lot of seniority then take it from me and prepare yourself and your family for some tough times.

 

[fatburger]

and it's pretty obvious your not an expert.

U mades its share of money in the late 90's until the summer of 1999. That's when Wolf started closing MX bases and we started seeing massive cancellations at the end of each month because of lack of crews. A combination of things led to U's demise.

As a furloughed U employee let me give the fine employees of UAL a little advice:

Prepare now! I received my furlough notice the day before Thankgiving last year for a March 2nd furlough. I thought it would never happen. My head was in the sand. If UAL does file Chapter 11 and you don't have a lot of seniority then take it from me and prepare yourself and your family for some tough times.

 

[fatburger]

Winglet-

How is having B-737, 757/767, A319/320/321, A330 an irrational fleet type?

U entered BK with concessionary agreements with 3 of the 5 major labor groups. They sewed up the other two shortly after. They have their DIP financing partner and are within 200 million more dollars from labor from getting the ATSB loan. If they don't get 200 million more in concession dollars then the company will liquidate plain and simple. If they get the loan they will emerge from BK by March 03.

Although no longer employed, from looking at the hurdles that labor/management of U have overcome U looks to be on the right path to recovery. Barring liquidation, which is a real possiblity, U's road through BK will be much easier than UALs. UAL, if they enter BK, doesn't have any agreements with their labor groups. The cuts will probably be very deep and the road to recovery a long one.

 

[fatburger]

Winglet-

How is having B-737, 757/767, A319/320/321, A330 an irrational fleet type?

U entered BK with concessionary agreements with 3 of the 5 major labor groups. They sewed up the other two shortly after. They have their DIP financing partner and are within 200 million more dollars from labor from getting the ATSB loan. If they don't get 200 million more in concession dollars then the company will liquidate plain and simple. If they get the loan they will emerge from BK by March 03.

Although no longer employed, from looking at the hurdles that labor/management of U have overcome U looks to be on the right path to recovery. Barring liquidation, which is a real possiblity, U's road through BK will be much easier than UALs. UAL, if they enter BK, doesn't have any agreements with their labor groups. The cuts will probably be very deep and the road to recovery a long one.

 

[767jetz]

DCAflyer said:

"767jetz spewed:"

Spewed? ... That's a good one. Can I use that?



" I am not wrong. You need to wake up from your dream if you think UAL is going to float in and out of bankruptcy. You're looking at about a year plus you will emerge with highly contentious labor issues. How do you know UAL is close to obtaining DIP financing? "

Let's try this again... Yes, you are wrong! I'm not don't claim to have ANY inside info whatsoever. But I do know how to read. Do you? There have been public newsreals directly from the company. It's no secret buddy. So get over yourself. Our CEO just said the other day that we have been planning parrallel tracks from the beginning just in case the ATSB rejected the loan. There were also reports in the news last week about DIP financing being close. Here is a quote from Reuters:
"CHICAGO (Reuters) - Lenders for United Airlines worked through the night to arrange final details for a financing package for an imminent bankruptcy filing by the second largest U.S. carrier, people familiar with the situation said Sunday.

The total amount of the so-called debtor-in-possession financing remained fixed at $1.5 billion, but at the final hour GE Capital (GE.N) was considering pulling out of the group of four major lenders, the sources said.

It was not immediately clear whether GE remained part of the group, but sources said the other three lenders -- JP Morgan Chase (JPM.N), Citibank (C.N) and Bank One (ONE.N) -- were thought to be picking up its share of the package."

So it looks like JP Morgan, Citibank, and Bank One will be the DIP financers, not some Pension fund company from Alabama.




"And you said the DIP financing is close to being lined up "if it's needed!" That shows your ignorance. "

Who is showing their ignorance? I used the word IF only because UA has not actually filed yet. Never said they wouldn't. In all of your accurate knowledge of our company, didn't you know that over the weekend the unions were negotiating in a last ditch effort to avoid CH11? Did you know that the unions even offered another $500 Million per year? I guess not. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt until an actual announcement is made. At United we prefer not to negotiate in the media.



"And what orafice did you pull out the line about star alliance members and local governments lining up to loan UAL money? That is NOT happening. UAL is begging, but so far not star alliance offers, and read my lips... NO LOCAL GOVERMENT IS GOING TO LOAN UAL MONEY AFTER THE ATSB TURNED UAL DOWN. What local government has the kind of disposable funds needed to pull UAL out?"

Boy! And you say you're not bitter? Maybe we should take a vote on that one. Once again, all you'd have to do is read company press releases and news articles. Lufthansa has stated several times over the last month that they are committed to helping us, financially if neccessary. And that they are confident in our survival and stand by us. The governor of Illinois stated last week that he would loan UA $200 Million if the ATSB approved our loan. Granted that hasn't happened. The ATSB has still left the loan application open and stated that the money could be available when emerging from BK, just like USAir. The point is that there are most certainly local governments willing to lend us $. So once again the stuff YOU spew is wrong.



"I am just facing reality and would advise you to do the same.

DCAflyer"

Thanks for the advice. Just because you're upset that you're taking it over and over again in your big fat 'oriface', doesn't mean the rest of us speak from the same place, or are in some kind of denial. We all know we have a tough road ahead. Thanks to USAir we have an example of how we DON'T want things to work out. We have plenty of assets to build upon and will successfully negotiate the waters ahead. Instead of wasting your time giving us advice, why don't you worry about saving your own company.

Good luck to you, and good day.

UNITED WILL STAND.

 

[767jetz]

DCAflyer said:

"767jetz spewed:"

Spewed? ... That's a good one. Can I use that?



" I am not wrong. You need to wake up from your dream if you think UAL is going to float in and out of bankruptcy. You're looking at about a year plus you will emerge with highly contentious labor issues. How do you know UAL is close to obtaining DIP financing? "

Let's try this again... Yes, you are wrong! I'm not don't claim to have ANY inside info whatsoever. But I do know how to read. Do you? There have been public newsreals directly from the company. It's no secret buddy. So get over yourself. Our CEO just said the other day that we have been planning parrallel tracks from the beginning just in case the ATSB rejected the loan. There were also reports in the news last week about DIP financing being close. Here is a quote from Reuters:
"CHICAGO (Reuters) - Lenders for United Airlines worked through the night to arrange final details for a financing package for an imminent bankruptcy filing by the second largest U.S. carrier, people familiar with the situation said Sunday.

The total amount of the so-called debtor-in-possession financing remained fixed at $1.5 billion, but at the final hour GE Capital (GE.N) was considering pulling out of the group of four major lenders, the sources said.

It was not immediately clear whether GE remained part of the group, but sources said the other three lenders -- JP Morgan Chase (JPM.N), Citibank (C.N) and Bank One (ONE.N) -- were thought to be picking up its share of the package."

So it looks like JP Morgan, Citibank, and Bank One will be the DIP financers, not some Pension fund company from Alabama.




"And you said the DIP financing is close to being lined up "if it's needed!" That shows your ignorance. "

Who is showing their ignorance? I used the word IF only because UA has not actually filed yet. Never said they wouldn't. In all of your accurate knowledge of our company, didn't you know that over the weekend the unions were negotiating in a last ditch effort to avoid CH11? Did you know that the unions even offered another $500 Million per year? I guess not. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt until an actual announcement is made. At United we prefer not to negotiate in the media.



"And what orafice did you pull out the line about star alliance members and local governments lining up to loan UAL money? That is NOT happening. UAL is begging, but so far not star alliance offers, and read my lips... NO LOCAL GOVERMENT IS GOING TO LOAN UAL MONEY AFTER THE ATSB TURNED UAL DOWN. What local government has the kind of disposable funds needed to pull UAL out?"

Boy! And you say you're not bitter? Maybe we should take a vote on that one. Once again, all you'd have to do is read company press releases and news articles. Lufthansa has stated several times over the last month that they are committed to helping us, financially if neccessary. And that they are confident in our survival and stand by us. The governor of Illinois stated last week that he would loan UA $200 Million if the ATSB approved our loan. Granted that hasn't happened. The ATSB has still left the loan application open and stated that the money could be available when emerging from BK, just like USAir. The point is that there are most certainly local governments willing to lend us $. So once again the stuff YOU spew is wrong.



"I am just facing reality and would advise you to do the same.

DCAflyer"

Thanks for the advice. Just because you're upset that you're taking it over and over again in your big fat 'oriface', doesn't mean the rest of us speak from the same place, or are in some kind of denial. We all know we have a tough road ahead. Thanks to USAir we have an example of how we DON'T want things to work out. We have plenty of assets to build upon and will successfully negotiate the waters ahead. Instead of wasting your time giving us advice, why don't you worry about saving your own company.

Good luck to you, and good day.

UNITED WILL STAND.

 

[tug_slug]

Winglet,[BR][BR]UAL has just secured their financing for Bk. You really need to go U's board and read what we've been going thru. Only then will you completely understand how the impossible can become possible.[BR][BR]Your ride at UAL has just begun... you aint seen nothi'n yet.

 

[tug_slug]

Winglet,[BR][BR]UAL has just secured their financing for Bk. You really need to go U's board and read what we've been going thru. Only then will you completely understand how the impossible can become possible.[BR][BR]Your ride at UAL has just begun... you aint seen nothi'n yet.

 

[FrugalFlyer]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/7/2002 1139 PM autofixer wrote:

How much more would U be worth to the star alliance than UAL?
----------------
[/blockquote]

The value of U to the * alliance is similar to the value of Austrian in Europe. Sure, it compliments LH, but leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[FrugalFlyer]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/7/2002 1139 PM autofixer wrote:

How much more would U be worth to the star alliance than UAL?
----------------
[/blockquote]

The value of U to the * alliance is similar to the value of Austrian in Europe. Sure, it compliments LH, but leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[767jetz]

DCAflyer,

Here's another article for you from today. As I said, maybe you should get your facts straight before you accuse others of spewing garbage from their various 'orifaces.'


"CHICAGO (Reuters) - Arrangements for $1.5 billion in special financing that United Airlines needs to operate in bankruptcy were finalized early Sunday evening, preparing the way for an expected imminent court filing, according to sources familiar with the matter.

United is the second largest U.S. airline and a unit of UAL Corp. (UAL.N).

The expected Chapter 11 filing by Elk Grove Village, Illinois-based United will be the largest such bankruptcy by any airline. United is struggling with high costs, massive debt and poor revenue from cheap airline tickets.

Sources familiar with the matter told Reuters the final group of lenders for the debtor-in-possession financing are J.P. Morgan Chase (JPM.N), Citibank (C.N), Bank One (ONE.N) and CIT Group (CIT.N). CIT was a late entry to the pool, replacing GE (GE.N) Capital.

GE was said to have wanted greater protection on their aircraft exposure to United, but the airline was able to line up the $1.5 billion without giving into such pressure.

Bank One, based in Chicago, has heavy exposure to United because it issues the airline's Mileage Plus frequent flyer credit card. The bank will be underwriting a $300 million loan and then it, and the other three, will split the rest of the $1.2 billion equally, sources said. That will give Bank One the heaviest exposure at a total $600 million."

12/08/2002 18:17