Will Tilton listen?

[Boomer]

atabuy,
Your continued use of highly charged language is not filling the air with warm fuzzies. Perhaps you need to turn over your PR position to someone that knows how to do it.

As for the MBA thing, if I recall; weren't the front offices of this august corporation filled with 'em.

 

[atabuy]

[blockquote]
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On 11/29/2002 3:44:33 PM Boomer wrote:

atabuy,
Your continued use of highly charged language is not filling the air with warm fuzzies. Perhaps you need to turn over your PR position to someone that knows how to do it.

As for the MBA thing, if I recall; weren't the front offices of this august corporation filled with 'em.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Boomer,
Ok, I got a little lost in my zeal to make a point.
Ual has the nicest stupidest people and no other airline can match them.
The world will soon know how nicely the stupidest people can blend in. A little class going to the bread lines.

Come on stupid ones. 2 more no votes will get you out of here for good.
Let's show everyone how stupid smart people can be.
Remember, if you can get the contract thrown out, Ual will not bother to call you back. You guys got it working. You guys are really too stupid/smart for any union. I think self governing is the way for you all to go.

This is a forward looking statement, and no stock should be bought or sold because of the potential of these stupid people. I meaan it is posible that they could all be at one place and lighting strike reality into them.
No, I think that would be considered a miracle.
Stupid people figure there is no way to keep out of BK so why vote yes.

Please!! I beg of you!! Do not tell any of them that humans have a limited life span. What a ripple effect that could make.

Hint here.
If you get a little mad, reread this. It is probably directed at you.
Also they are giving classes on three letter words now. Wouldn't you like to see that on your fridge.

 

[Taipan]

If I were Mr Tilton I would have had the highest mechanic management employee in my office at 0600 this morning asking him these questions.
1.Why did the mechanics give up everything and vote overwhemingly to put us in CH 11?
2.Why are the vast majority of the mechanics very angry at us ? even more so than the other IAM employess who are not exactly thrilled with managment, but the level at 141M is noticeably higher?
3.I probably would not have liked his response and I would be telling him or her that they will be resigning today.
4.Then I would tell 141M about my decision and I would also tell them I will be down to IND to have a look see at whats going on, and I want to tell the 141 members personally that we need there help?
5.This is the kind of thing that would take to turn this around in less than two weeks.

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 11/28/2002 8:41:14 PM aircraft_artificer wrote:

There comes a time when any man will say enough is enough. Well that time has come. Fix what got United in this mess in the first place, then ask for help.
----------------
[/blockquote]

That's like a surgeon walking into a room with a guy bleeding to death on a table in front of him and insisting that the room be repainted, the driveway repaved and a Chili's be built where the cafeteria is before he'll lay one finger on the patient, and oh buy the way, the guy bleeding to death is the guy who signs his paycheck. If enough is enough QUIT!!! Tilton is the right man, but he can't fix everything that hurts your poor fragile little feelings overnight. GROW UP! You think greedy immature employees who have temper tantrums as the company is on the verge of BK could be part of the problem? Do you think having more mechanics per jet than any other airline in america, who are also the highest paid in the industry, could be part of the problem and part of the reason we're in this mess? be careful what you wish for, if we go to Chap 11, you will get it, and them some

"Uh Oh, Better Get TRAMCO"

 

[Bob Owens]

[blockquote]
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On 11/29/2002 2:41:28 PM atabuy wrote:
I just question anyone looking for a business plan, who is willing to lose their own money. I don't think you guys could figure out a plan with the paranoia around here.

This is a straight forward money concession that if not accepted and we are thrown into BK will lead to the demise of your group as you know it, unless now you all become MBA's and figure it out.

You know who will get the stinky end of this stick don't you?
The guys who are the stupidest. Not by seniority, The stupidest.
If the contract is abrogated, this means no contract. This means when members are called back to work it will be by company choice instead of seniority.
I think Ual will cull out the stupidest that are still here and bring back the better mechanics first.
No = stupid.
Vindictive = too emotional.
Just an opinion.
ps. I don't know how many stupid positions are available on the outside.
Maybe the emotional can get some work with Jerry Springer. No interview needed. Just call and use the keyword no!


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[/blockquote]

ATabuy;
Does Bill Gates have an MBA? While education is a valuable asset its not a substitute for sound judgment and experience. Mechanics dont need to have MBAs. They just need to know how to fix airplanes and what to charge for their time. Past experience has taught the mechanics that agreeing to a long term concessionary contract during the downside of the business cycle is a bad move. With each downturn all the MBAs that run the company claim that the company is doomed but soon after gaining what they want the company rebounds, makes tons of cash, that the MBAs who were smart enough to come up with all sorts of excuses as to why they should not agree to concessionary deals generously divy up amongst each other while the mechanics are stuck until thier contract becomes amendable.
Vote No, like you did on Nov 27, like you will again this week, like you must until you can get real representation. If not Now, When?
6 years is too long.

 

[UAL777flyer]

This is ridiculous. Tilton already acknowledges that these problems exist. I heard him say so personally. But UA's first priority is to stabilize the finances and balance sheet. Otherwise, there is no UAL! So those of you who are complaining that changes need to be made, well, those changes can't be made unless Tilton is given the tools to stabilize the company's financial picture first. If bankruptcy happens, the changes you want will be very hard to come by because of the chaos UA will be thrown into by not having ultimate control over decisions and strategic direction of the company.

Tilton CANNOT make the changes everyone wants until the company is stabilized. He is desperately trying to avoid filing for Ch 11. And for that, everyone should be thankful, because if we're forced to file, it is going to get a lot worse for all of us. So if you want to see change, than give him the tools to effect those changes. They won't happen overnight. They'll take time. But they won't happen at all unless EVERYONE steps up to the plate to help him.

 

[Bob Owens]

[blockquote]
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On 11/28/2002 743 PM AirplaneFan wrote:

But the bottom line question is "Will UAL make it, without concessions?". You all make it sound like you have been sacraficial lambs, but you are paid the highest wages in an industry known for paying high wages. But you keep trying to claim the moral high ground that management has not kept promises they made to you.

So you will force the company into bankruptcy, wipeout your own equity holdings and in the end get a deal forced on you by the courts that will be much tougher than what you would get outside the courts.
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[/blockquote]

In BK court the judge can either uphold the contract if he determines that the mechanics had "good cause" or reject it in which case the company and the union start off as if no contract exists. He does not set new terms. The company can force its terms-which it pretty much will get if the mechanics willingly accept the rejected deal except now the mechanics are free to strike. If they vote it in they will have to live with it for 6 years.In other words both parties are released. More than likely the status quo would remain until there is an agreement. Then maybe the mechanics can drag it out for a year or so like the company always does and then the need for concessions will no longer be there. The company would no longer be able to hide behind the ATSB and would have to come to terms with the mechanics. 6 years is too long.

 

[UAL777flyer]

BobOwens,

Is AA Corporate Communications paying you to spread all this "vote 'No'" propaganda? The length of the cuts is dictated by the ATSB. Unfortunately, at this juncture, the ATSB represents the only option for UA to restructure out of court. But then we already know that you don't want that because it'll mean paycuts for you down the road, as well as having to compete with a leaner UA.

Without the ATSB loan guarantee, UA's only option is a Ch 11 filing, at which point the company will hold more leverage in lowering costs. But then we already know that you don't want that either because it'll mean paycuts for you down the road, as well as having to compete with a leaner UA. Even Stevie Wonder could see through your agenda!

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 12:02:35 PM Bob Owens wrote:

Doesnt UAL still have $1Billion in cash? The urgency of the situation is more propaganda than fact.
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[/blockquote]

You have no concept of finance do you....

 

[Bob Owens]

ATABUY wrote:

"aircraft_artificer
Would you understand a meaningful business plan?
I guess what I am saying is you are turning down 7.4% to put the company in BK and then you lose your potential with your Esop shares, your retro, and seats on the board. They could give you much more back than what you are giving up. I can't see how you are even qualified to judge any plan."

If it were just 7.4% then maybe you would have a good point. But its not 7.4% it will end up being closer to 20% over a six year period. Six years from now the UAL mechanics will be making what they are making now. Inflation has averaged around 3% over the last thirty years, that means that the rate they are earning today will be worth 18% less in 2008 than it is today, extend the contract though delayed negotiations and your up to 21%. Now when negotiations start and they ask for an immediate 21% increase the NMB will say that its excessive. Retro- I doubt that they will ever see one penny of it. Two months from now and the company will claim that the cuts were not enough and the Union, without a vote of the membership will elect to give it back (where is it written that they cant?). Other than Union officials does any of the Rank and File beleive that having a seat on the BOD has helped them? Its sad to see when Union officials are so desperate to socialize with the rich and powerful that it makes them blind.

 

[casual rat]

Stupidest is not a word....

 

[Bob Owens]

mancityfan;
"Until then, I just want to let you know, I am about to take an 18% pay cut that will turn into a 37% pay cut when I get bumped from the Captain's seat of the 737 to the First Officer's seat on the 767. Kinda makes that 7% look like peanuts, doesn't it? And I think the Judge will feel the same way!"

Well if you feel that your getting such a lousy deal and the mechanics are doing so well because they only have to give up 7% then why dont you become a mechanic? Uh lets see; a double digit paycut that will still leave me with six figures working 75 (or at least getting paid for 75) hours a month or working nights 5 days a week, outdoors in all kinds of weather for 60K a year? Tough choice!
Hey if your so desperate to save the airline why dont you agree to another 3 or 4% to make up the difference of what the mechanics wont give? If 7% is nothing for the mechanics then how bad could another 3% be for you guys? Its only 3%.
Vote NO.

 

[Bob Owens]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/2/2002 10:40:41 AM UAL777flyer wrote:

This is ridiculous. Tilton already acknowledges that these problems exist. I heard him say so personally. But UA's first priority is to stabilize the finances and balance sheet. Otherwise, there is no UAL! So those of you who are complaining that changes need to be made, well, those changes can't be made unless Tilton is given the tools to stabilize the company's financial picture first. If bankruptcy happens, the changes you want will be very hard to come by because of the chaos UA will be thrown into by not having ultimate control over decisions and strategic direction of the company.

Tilton CANNOT make the changes everyone wants until the company is stabilized. He is desperately trying to avoid filing for Ch 11. And for that, everyone should be thankful, because if we're forced to file, it is going to get a lot worse for all of us. So if you want to see change, than give him the tools to effect those changes. They won't happen overnight. They'll take time. But they won't happen at all unless EVERYONE steps up to the plate to help him.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Doesnt UAL still have $1Billion in cash? The urgency of the situation is more propaganda than fact.

 

[Bob Owens]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/2/2002 12:01:09 PM UAL777flyer wrote:

BobOwens,

Is AA Corporate Communications paying you to spread all this "vote 'No'" propaganda? The length of the cuts is dictated by the ATSB. Unfortunately, at this juncture, the ATSB represents the only option for UA to restructure out of court. But then we already know that you don't want that because it'll mean paycuts for you down the road, as well as having to compete with a leaner UA.

Without the ATSB loan guarantee, UA's only option is a Ch 11 filing, at which point the company will hold more leverage in lowering costs. But then we already know that you don't want that either because it'll mean paycuts for you down the road, as well as having to compete with a leaner UA. Even Stevie Wonder could see through your agenda!
----------------
[/blockquote]

Well you would have to be Stevie Wonder to not know why I've been posting since I've been honest and up front since the beginning. You on the other hand have not been so transparent as you spread misinformation and distortions in order to promote fear from behind an alias. While I've been up front and factual you throw your barbs from anonamymity, like a terrorist. I present options while acknowledging that the worst case scenario could happen, you present it as a certainty. You try to get the mechanics to vote based on fear, I try to give facts.
While I will answer your question, again, NO AA corporate Communications is not paying me to do this. Its highly unlikely that AA corparate would want anything to do with me after I spoiled their attempt to blame the lock out of passengers at JFK last year on the mechanics.I do it on my own time. Will you answer me this time since you did not last time, Are you doing this on UAL time? On anyones time other than your own? From the times that you post it appears that you are doing this during working hours, I beleive that you said that you were an analysts for UAL that means that you probably work regular 9 to 5 hours,what are you doing here?
This whole ATSB is nothing but a scam to lower Airline wages across the board. As the Bush spokesman (Badillo?)revealed at the IRRA conference last year the administration supports cheap airfares and stockholder returns and will use all the powers of the office to provide it. On the one hand the administration said that the country could not afford to allow United to shutdown but now they will allow it because one group, that only makes up a small percentage of the operating expenses refuses agree to a six year concessionary deal? According to the plans of Bush and Greenspan the propaganda was supposed to work. They were supposed to willingly agree to the concessions. The mechanics spoiled their plans and now they are in a quandry. If UAL does go into bankruptcy, and the mechanics show how the industry has performed in the past and how long term concessionary contracts have had a long term negative impact upon the workers then how can he say that the mechanics did not have "good cause". The mechanics have chosen to take their chances, thats the American way. If we are to surrender to threats and intimidation and to settle for the undesirable because they say the alternate could be worse then why dont we all just put all our women in Burkas, grow beards and pledge allegience to Al Qaida?

 

[Bob Owens]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/29/2002 7:22:37 PM atabuy wrote:
Boomer,
Ok, I got a little lost in my zeal to make a point.
Ual has the nicest stupidest people and no other airline can match them.
The world will soon know how nicely the stupidest people can blend in. A little class going to the bread lines.

Come on stupid ones. 2 more no votes will get you out of here for good.
Let's show everyone how stupid smart people can be.
Remember, if you can get the contract thrown out, Ual will not bother to call you back. You guys got it working. You guys are really too stupid/smart for any union. I think self governing is the way for you all to go.

This is a forward looking statement, and no stock should be bought or sold because of the potential of these stupid people. I meaan it is posible that they could all be at one place and lighting strike reality into them.
No, I think that would be considered a miracle.
Stupid people figure there is no way to keep out of BK so why vote yes.

Please!! I beg of you!! Do not tell any of them that humans have a limited life span. What a ripple effect that could make.

Hint here.
If you get a little mad, reread this. It is probably directed at you.
Also they are giving classes on three letter words now. Wouldn't you like to see that on your fridge.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Atabuy;
Why do you make the assumption that the judge will think that a six year concessionary deal is not "good cause" for rejection? Have any contractors other than labor agreed to such lengthy terms?
Show me one example of where, since the new rules were put in place, a Judge has abrogated a labor agreement. The arguement that the ATSB set up the terms is immaterial since the ATSB is there to protect and guarantee investors interests, not workers, the two have opposing motives. There are other means of gaining loans and if not the workers still retain the right to determine that they will not sell their labor until they have certain terms and rates.