Who holds the retierment funds?

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 9:07:51 PM oldiebutgoody wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 8:51:12 PM mlt wrote:

RowUnderDCA,
I believe I read in one of the wire articles posted on the board today that the retirees (should ALPA lose the arbitration) would fall under the guidelines of the PBGC. Additionally, I think the judge was quoted as saying it was a shame (or something to that effect). As I was not a supporter of Mr. Schofield and other executives losing their pensions, I feel the same toward the retired pilots. I hope when ALPA is negotiating that they remember the retirees are the people who negotiated the great work rules and benefits that all of us have enjoyed for years and take the opportunity to repay them. One of the greatest tragedies are the pilots who have retired this year or will soon be retiring could see the retirement that they worked for 30+ years evaporate without ever realizing a dime. Many of these new retirees are the same pilots who trained the current union leadership when they were new to the property. It will be interesting to see the character of ALPA's MEC.
----------------
[/blockquote]
The problem is that somehow the new contract (since the renegotiation will result in one) will somehow have to cover retirees. Has this ever been done? Can it be done? I don't even have a clue where to get the answers to this. I imagine that some kind of "supplement" to whatever PBGC pays to retirees could be arrived at, but that would mainly be up to the company. This issue raises a lot of questions in regard to retirees, but I can assure you that they won't be forgotten (at least by me, but that may not matter). If the company successfully "dumps" this plan onto the taxpayers there will be many more airlines (as well as other companies from other industries) to do the same. No doubt about it, the ones with the most to lose could be retirees.
----------------
[/blockquote]
You're talking to one right here.

 

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 8:08:03 PM RowUnderDCA wrote:


Does anybody have a line on what the PBGC will do to pilots that retired years ago?

There's something that seems wrong about this. If current pensioners are creditors (like the judge implied on Saturday) then bankruptcy could treat them pretty harshly, sadly. But then the lump sum recipients wouldn't be creditors, because they've got paid. So bankruptcy court wouldn't touch them.

But I'm not sure that PBGC will pay the annuitants more than the maximum and might even try to get something back from the lump sum recipients.

So does it seem to anybody else that ALPA and the company are reaching back to retirees from YEARS ago to help finance the 'enhanced' defined contribution plan for current pilots?

So, if PBGC lets U and ALPA negotiate new cash to benefit the current pilots, how can they differentiate them from retirees?
----------------
[/blockquote]
Not yet, no word from the Soaring Eagles, whose lawyer actually HELPED ALPA's attorneys quite a bit. As far as I can figure, we will only get the benefit from the PBGC and the max does not apply because pilots have to retire at age 60, another shot to their behinds. That means my ex and I will share about 30,000 per year; 15 for him and 15 for me. My health insurance alone is $7000 per year; my property taxes on an itty bitty condo are over 5K. You do the math. Is that "fair"? No. But I don't believe that the active pilots will factor in the retired pilots; they don't have to. I don't know if the Soaring Eagles can take further action to stop this but I know if they can, they will. What right does a company have to walk into people's lives who left the property years and years ago, and make us poor? If you don't think $15,000 is poor on the East Coast, then you don't know Jack.

 

[mlt]

RowUnderDCA,
My understanding of a DBP is that you can never change a formula retroactively for the negative. So, technically they could maintain the 2.4% until Dec 31, 2002; 1.8% Jan 1, 2003 until a new plan was agreed and then the new lower formula moving forward.

 

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 9:35:14 PM mlt wrote:

FP
If that is what you think that is fine,however I have the chart provided by ALPA in the spring and the PBGC pays retirees at age 70 up to a mzximum of 71K and change (according to the above guidelines).
----------------
[/blockquote]
According to what I read on their site, the max paid to anyone at any time is 44K,
but I sure hope you are right. I am too drained right now to go and look.
An interesting thing is if U goes Chapter 7, there is no difference to us than if it doesn't.

 

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 8:51:12 PM mlt wrote:

RowUnderDCA,
I believe I read in one of the wire articles posted on the board today that the retirees (should ALPA lose the arbitration) would fall under the guidelines of the PBGC. Additionally, I think the judge was quoted as saying it was a shame (or something to that effect). As I was not a supporter of Mr. Schofield and other executives losing their pensions, I feel the same toward the retired pilots. I hope when ALPA is negotiating that they remember the retirees are the people who negotiated the great work rules and benefits that all of us have enjoyed for years and take the opportunity to repay them. One of the greatest tragedies are the pilots who have retired this year or will soon be retiring could see the retirement that they worked for 30+ years evaporate without ever realizing a dime. Many of these new retirees are the same pilots who trained the current union leadership when they were new to the property. It will be interesting to see the character of ALPA's MEC.
----------------
[/blockquote]
I believe you are right. The PBGC will pay us a stipend. I don't look for the active pilots to give a good god damn about us. Sorry for the cynicism but that's how I feel.

 

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 9:37:24 PM RowUnderDCA wrote:

Pup et al-

Good luck to everyone. Pup, I really appreciate your attitude and position.

A bit of gentle advice: don't burn your bridges too soon. For one thing, I don't know that ALPA or anyone can get out of this double bind, even if they wanted too.

I understand that unfairness and pain are what bankruptcy is about. Be vigilent and prepared, but don't assume that folks are going to act without integrity.

I'm going to think about ways to help, other than baiting folks, who are all understandibly upset, on the bulletin boards.

Again, take care.
----------------
[/blockquote]
I'd like to be able to consentrate on that too, but next week, I find out whether I have a very nasty disease that starts with a C. Some of the tests are back and some aren't and you know how that goes. I am in a great deal of physical pain. I had to fight with my insurance company to get the more expensive tests done. If you pay 7K for an individual HMO, you are screwed big time. I had to fight for myself. Let me quote something from the MEC Code-a-phone on Feb 5:
"Under the Railway Labor Act, ALPA is the designated collective bargaining representative for the incumbent USAirways pilots and not for the retired pilots. In many instances, the interests of incumbent pilots and retired pilots may overlap. However, that may not always be the case in all issues. As noted, ALPA has taken and intends to take the actions previously described in connection with the Company's proposed termination of the DBPlan. In addition, retired pilots or other participants may take any legal action in the bankruptcy court they feel is appropriate"
Well, the Soaring Eagles, The Lump Sum Pilots, The Piedmont Silver Eagles, and another filing objections of claimants Elwood F. Menear, Edward Graf, etc. et al. All filed to the court.
After you read the quote from the Coda-phone above, do you believe the MEC will reprsent the retired pilots? My interpretation of that statement is it is a gentlemanly way of telling us to take a hike.

 

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 9:16:03 PM mlt wrote:

F.P.
Check the PBGC guidelines. I believe you are paid within a maximum amount according to the year the plan terminates and the age of the recipient when they collect their first payment from the PBGC. I think in a previous post you stated your ex-husband had retired 8 years ago--assuming he is 68 years old his benefit would be in the neighborhood of 58K. However, whatever payment you start with there is never an increase for the remainder of the time you collect from the PBGC (no cost of living, etc.)Look on their website for the information or call them for specific information.
----------------
[/blockquote]
I looked at their website the day I got the Love Letter from U's lawyers. My husband ex or not, will not get as much as you think. The maximum the PGBC pays to ANYONE is around 44k. Period. That's it. That's gross and taxable income.

 

ALPA is well known for eating its young and now apparently it will eat its old too. Please pass the Polander.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

Pup et al-

Good luck to everyone. Pup, I really appreciate your attitude and position.

A bit of gentle advice: don't burn your bridges too soon. For one thing, I don't know that ALPA or anyone can get out of this double bind, even if they wanted too.

I understand that unfairness and pain are what bankruptcy is about. Be vigilent and prepared, but don't assume that folks are going to act without integrity.

I'm going to think about ways to help, other than baiting folks, who are all understandibly upset, on the bulletin boards.

Again, take care.

 

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 8:33:20 PM oldiebutgoody wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 8:08:03 PM RowUnderDCA wrote:


Does anybody have a line on what the PBGC will do to pilots that retired years ago?

There's something that seems wrong about this. If current pensioners are creditors (like the judge implied on Saturday) then bankruptcy could treat them pretty harshly, sadly. But then the lump sum recipients wouldn't be creditors, because they've got paid. So bankruptcy court wouldn't touch them.

But I'm not sure that PBGC will pay the annuitants more than the maximum and might even try to get something back from the lump sum recipients.

So does it seem to anybody else that ALPA and the company are reaching back to retirees from YEARS ago to help finance the 'enhanced' defined contribution plan for current pilots?

So, if PBGC lets U and ALPA negotiate new cash to benefit the current pilots, how can they differentiate them from retirees?
----------------
[/blockquote]
I'm not sure that anybody understands the full meaning of all of this right now, but implying that ALPA did this so as to screw the retirees in some way is just ludicrous. I don't really know if anything can be done on their behalf by way of the RLA now, but I also don't know just what benefits they will be entitled to under the PBGC either. I don't know why, if the company knew about his obligation, that they didn't include it's funding in the ATSB loan request. Seems they had their eye on ditching this obligation all along. I'll bet once they figure out how to get it they'll go after all the other retirements as well. Maybe not immediately, but either at contract time or the next force majeur (which could be as close as the next change in terror alert level). It's not over yet for the retirees. We'll have to see whether the company will really negotiate or just threaten liquidation again.
----------------
[/blockquote]
My personal opinion is that we are screwed. Period. The retirees had to get their own representation for the hearing. Thank god they did! The law firm the Soaring Eagles retained was the best law firm in that court room. They used to work for the other side....gov't side and know the law on pensions inside out.
This is where they helped the ALPA attnys and the ALPA attnys know the Railway Labor Law better than they do. I think the combination helped the pilots get another shot, but I don't for one moment, believe the retired pilots will get anything but grief.
Some of us are ill. Like me, for instance. I can't afford to drop my health insurance now. We don't even know when the rug will be pulled out from under us so we can PLAN! We found out about the distressed termination when the company's attorneys sent us the Love Letter. Obviously, ALPA new about this possibility earlier but no one bothered to tell us about it.
Don't cry for me, Argentina! Somehow, some way, I will get by. But just at the time in my life when I thought things were really peaceful and nice, kaboom.
I posted a lot yesterday because I was so worried that things would not go right and I wanted to know as soon as possible so my heart could leave my throat and go back into my chest where it belongs. Now it is back in my throat.
That's what happens to those nasty mean pilots who make too much money! Yeah! They get their comupance. Aren't you all just joyful and mirthfilled!
[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/11.gif']

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 8:51:12 PM mlt wrote:

RowUnderDCA,
I believe I read in one of the wire articles posted on the board today that the retirees (should ALPA lose the arbitration) would fall under the guidelines of the PBGC. Additionally, I think the judge was quoted as saying it was a shame (or something to that effect). As I was not a supporter of Mr. Schofield and other executives losing their pensions, I feel the same toward the retired pilots. I hope when ALPA is negotiating that they remember the retirees are the people who negotiated the great work rules and benefits that all of us have enjoyed for years and take the opportunity to repay them. One of the greatest tragedies are the pilots who have retired this year or will soon be retiring could see the retirement that they worked for 30+ years evaporate without ever realizing a dime. Many of these new retirees are the same pilots who trained the current union leadership when they were new to the property. It will be interesting to see the character of ALPA's MEC.
----------------
[/blockquote]
The problem is that somehow the new contract (since the renegotiation will result in one) will somehow have to cover retirees. Has this ever been done? Can it be done? I don't even have a clue where to get the answers to this. I imagine that some kind of "supplement" to whatever PBGC pays to retirees could be arrived at, but that would mainly be up to the company. This issue raises a lot of questions in regard to retirees, but I can assure you that they won't be forgotten (at least by me, but that may not matter). If the company successfully "dumps" this plan onto the taxpayers there will be many more airlines (as well as other companies from other industries) to do the same. No doubt about it, the ones with the most to lose could be retirees.

 

[fatherabraham]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 8:51:12 PM mlt wrote:

RowUnderDCA,
I believe I read in one of the wire articles posted on the board today that the retirees (should ALPA lose the arbitration) would fall under the guidelines of the PBGC. Additionally, I think the judge was quoted as saying it was a shame (or something to that effect). As I was not a supporter of Mr. Schofield and other executives losing their pensions, I feel the same toward the retired pilots. I hope when ALPA is negotiating that they remember the retirees are the people who negotiated the great work rules and benefits that all of us have enjoyed for years and take the opportunity to repay them. One of the greatest tragedies are the pilots who have retired this year or will soon be retiring could see the retirement that they worked for 30+ years evaporate without ever realizing a dime. Many of these new retirees are the same pilots who trained the current union leadership when they were new to the property. It will be interesting to see the character of ALPA's MEC.
----------------
[/blockquote]

MLT,

I have gone on record here numerous time with my appalling disgust for those attempting to benefit at the loss of others. Retires deserve every penny they EARNED. All EARNED income should be protected.

Now for your last two sentences....this may be where the problem lies. Perhaps the current ALPA workforce or MEC does not share your interpretation of " great work rules and benefits ". Truth be said, I think many feel they have been had by your generation and the downfall of unionism taught to them by example. Just my opinion

 

----------------
[/blockquote]

MLT,

I have gone on record here numerous time with my appalling disgust for those attempting to benefit at the loss of others. Retires deserve every penny they EARNED. All EARNED income should be protected.

Now for your last two sentences....this may be where the problem lies. Perhaps the current ALPA workforce or MEC does not share your interpretation of " great work rules and benefits ". Truth be said, I think many feel they have been had by your generation and the downfall of unionism taught to them by example. Just my opinion

----------------
[/blockquote]
I think your opinion is spot on, Father. Years ago, my husband and I were really good friends with another pilot and his wife. We did tons of things together. That all stopped short when the other pilot ran for LEC and was elected. I always thought an alien ate him because he changed all his opinions that he had previously defended vociferously for as long as we knew him. Then one day, they were no longer "available". Next thing you know, they snubbed us at social gatherings. His nose took on a very strange shade of brown.
I know that good men have served in U ALPA. But I also know there are many of them there for the power and the imagined "prestige" they think they get when so annointed. They become a part of the "in" crowd and their brain goes into private session henseforth.

 

[mlt]

FatherAbrham,
I think you may have a misperception of what I wrote. For years the employees of US Airways had the best contracts in the industry which were negotiated by some of the current retirees. Additionally, look at the names of ALPA's seniority list to see who has recently retired or will be retiring within a few months. Many of the names on the list are respected pilots not only for their skills in the cockpit, but for their skills in dealing with people. As someone said to me recently, 'it is an end of an era'. My point was the people who have previously retired and are currently retiring are the same people who welcomed all of us onto the property with open arms and I would hate for ALPA to forget them.

While I would love for my generation to take credit for everything good about our work life, I can't do it as I have 25 years to go before I am eligible to retire.

Cheers!

 

[bigbusdrvr]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/3/2003 1031 AM mlt wrote:

FatherAbrham,
I think you may have a misperception of what I wrote. For years the employees of US Airways had the best contracts in the industry which were negotiated by some of the current retirees. Additionally, look at the names of ALPA's seniority list to see who has recently retired or will be retiring within a few months. Many of the names on the list are respected pilots not only for their skills in the cockpit, but for their skills in dealing with people. As someone said to me recently, 'it is an end of an era'. My point was the people who have previously retired and are currently retiring are the same people who welcomed all of us onto the property with open arms and I would hate for ALPA to forget them.

While I would love for my generation to take credit for everything good about our work life, I can't do it as I have 25 years to go before I am eligible to retire.

Cheers!
----------------
[/blockquote]
I don't think ALPA or the current pilot group will forget the retired pilots. However anyone retireing under protection of the PBGC on an annunity is subject to reduction of said benifits!!

The annunity is only guarranted as long as the company remains solvent, thus the payout from PBGC is so much higher to a retired pilot as compared to a still employed!!

The currently employed pilots have to work with the company and arbitrator to attempt to make up the shortfall for the NONretired pilots who will get substantially less if any from PBGC, based on age at the time of DBP termination!!