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- Thread starter USA320Pilot
- Start date
there will be deals from all unions.
let me in on this secret here sir....what are you refering to?
the majority of employees understand the current economic reality
ok sir i'll give you that to some extent,but at what length do you perceive them to give?...also you are right but what i beleive you fail to realize is the level of their frustration and the limit they are willing to go to acheive a future at U without some type of guarantee for their investment.
would you invest in U given their present situation?would you consider an investment based on their recent track record of "turning the company around"?
i ask you to look at the situation,hells bells...the finance community has recently lowered U's rating once again....so what do you say regarding that?
wall street says "you gonna die" basically.now what?
wall street is saying they have no financial trust in the people running our airline... they're telling them in the PIT hangars that if they get the 'c' checks out on time for the next 90...then we might make it...if we make it,then we'll go for another 90....wake up and smell the roses my friend.
Regardless, US Airways will be involved in a corporate transaction. If the company stabilizes its finances current employees will fly and support current aircraft. If not, then furloughed employees from other airlines will fly and support the current US Airways fleet.
'splain to me where this is comming from again,sir??you are saying then if we at U don't buy into the grand plan(for the 3rd time around )we will be replaced by corporate scabs from our unions?...duh.... hep me ...hep me....
let me in on this secret here sir....what are you refering to?
the majority of employees understand the current economic reality
ok sir i'll give you that to some extent,but at what length do you perceive them to give?...also you are right but what i beleive you fail to realize is the level of their frustration and the limit they are willing to go to acheive a future at U without some type of guarantee for their investment.
would you invest in U given their present situation?would you consider an investment based on their recent track record of "turning the company around"?
i ask you to look at the situation,hells bells...the finance community has recently lowered U's rating once again....so what do you say regarding that?
wall street says "you gonna die" basically.now what?
wall street is saying they have no financial trust in the people running our airline... they're telling them in the PIT hangars that if they get the 'c' checks out on time for the next 90...then we might make it...if we make it,then we'll go for another 90....wake up and smell the roses my friend.
Regardless, US Airways will be involved in a corporate transaction. If the company stabilizes its finances current employees will fly and support current aircraft. If not, then furloughed employees from other airlines will fly and support the current US Airways fleet.
'splain to me where this is comming from again,sir??you are saying then if we at U don't buy into the grand plan(for the 3rd time around )we will be replaced by corporate scabs from our unions?...duh.... hep me ...hep me....
OP
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
- Thread Starter
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- #33
Delldude:
Here’s the issue. US Airways must maintain a minimum unrestricted cash balance of $1 billion through June 30 then the company has certain financial covenants to maintain. If the airline does not meet the ATSB financial requirements then the board can force the sale of the company’s assets and initiate an involuntary Chapter 7 bankruptcy.
That’s the deal, which are the terms of the loan guarantee for every carrier who receives the governments financial backing.
Thus, I believe every union should listen to the transformation plan and then act accordingly. If there is not a means for management and labor to come to terms with this reality then the airline will be sold piece meal without employee transfer.
If the company can stabilize its finances, then employees will have options such as maintaining employment at US Airways and then continuing employment after the corporate transaction, which will occur.
Let me ask you a question. If the terms of the new deals are unacceptable, is it better to look for another job with pay, medical/dental insurance, benefits, and pass privileges or unemployment compensation and Cobra?
Moreover, how about certain employees that must have the medical insurance. how would they be without htis benefit. For example, last week I talked with a DCA mechanic who was working on our aircraft. While we were waiting to see if a check worked, he told me about his 5-year old son who had a brain tumor and the chemotherapy treatments -- which was a "gut wrenching" story. This mechanic was very thankful for US Airways and his medical benefits because it was helping him save his son's life. But, if US Airways fails what happens to this mechanic's son if his Dad's medical insurance is lost? How about the many other employees in similar circumstances?
Nobody likes the economic realities of the network carrier marketplace, but now is not the time to “pound the chestâ€. I do not like the situation any more than anybody else, however, in my opinion it is better to live to fight another day -- when labor has some leverage in the future.
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot
Here’s the issue. US Airways must maintain a minimum unrestricted cash balance of $1 billion through June 30 then the company has certain financial covenants to maintain. If the airline does not meet the ATSB financial requirements then the board can force the sale of the company’s assets and initiate an involuntary Chapter 7 bankruptcy.
That’s the deal, which are the terms of the loan guarantee for every carrier who receives the governments financial backing.
Thus, I believe every union should listen to the transformation plan and then act accordingly. If there is not a means for management and labor to come to terms with this reality then the airline will be sold piece meal without employee transfer.
If the company can stabilize its finances, then employees will have options such as maintaining employment at US Airways and then continuing employment after the corporate transaction, which will occur.
Let me ask you a question. If the terms of the new deals are unacceptable, is it better to look for another job with pay, medical/dental insurance, benefits, and pass privileges or unemployment compensation and Cobra?
Moreover, how about certain employees that must have the medical insurance. how would they be without htis benefit. For example, last week I talked with a DCA mechanic who was working on our aircraft. While we were waiting to see if a check worked, he told me about his 5-year old son who had a brain tumor and the chemotherapy treatments -- which was a "gut wrenching" story. This mechanic was very thankful for US Airways and his medical benefits because it was helping him save his son's life. But, if US Airways fails what happens to this mechanic's son if his Dad's medical insurance is lost? How about the many other employees in similar circumstances?
Nobody likes the economic realities of the network carrier marketplace, but now is not the time to “pound the chestâ€. I do not like the situation any more than anybody else, however, in my opinion it is better to live to fight another day -- when labor has some leverage in the future.
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot
you see when you go to harvard and get paid in excess of 500,000 per month YOU should see items like that coming; action not reaction is needed. you would think at higher levels this would be normal thinking. Like having a plan B comes to mind.USA320Pilot said:
even harry truman said the buck stops here (actually it was a sign on his desk) but understood about taking responsiblity period.
i would agree to the extent action is now required, time is the bigger enemy here not unions nor management
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
USAir320pilot,
"Live to fight another day"....and what day might that be? Hmm give us an example?
Next concession maybe? Under what condtions? If we make a profit, can you see management in 2009 negotiations telling the labor groups that they can't give improvements because we will be right back where we came from? Isn't this what we will hear? Or the UCT will save us. You know this, right.... Everyone will be saved by the UCT. Just like TWA? Do you think we could negotiatiate our work rules back? Better medical coverages and less expensive? Do you know of anytime in history that this has occured with medical or LTD, or OJI benefits? Sick provisions will improve? You think maybe this mangement would be on drugs or something by then to give in to this? Huh?
So, "chest pounding". Interesting again. I think you gave that same schpeel one year ago, right before this management asked the PBGC to termiante your pensions. OH, still, that again was not "another day to fight"?
The fact remains in your book, there is no day to ever fight! It is just give and give and give, in order for YOU TO HAVE YOUR JOB SAVED. Cause I am sure as I sit here, that if YOU were on the chopping block with productivity enhancements, YOU would be singing a different tune. Yea, yea, you have other opportunities, like you said before....BUT YOU DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE. You're still here!!!!
Tell me sir, is this "corporate transaction" going to be known at the time the "business plan" is unveiled to labor, or is this your little secret with senior management types and they allowed you to share it in this public forum? Or could they be luring you in to convincing those on these boards how important it is that labor includes themelves in the UCT and give, give, give....?
If your labor group goes to the table and gives concessions in the way of work rules that has the f/as tied into a "me too", then we as f/a are basically f$%&ed! I can't see any group, even after seeing the business plan, giving more and rewarding bad management. Tell us, have they let you in on what they plan to contribute towards that $300 Million?????
If you drag us in with the "me toos", we won't go to any table and give management "free reign" on our work rules and quality of life. Management took the prouctivity enhancements this past winter. Whatever they forgot to include in language, they are just stealing presently.
Go pound salt, and tell your "Inside" informant, it ain't working down here!
"Live to fight another day"....and what day might that be? Hmm give us an example?
Next concession maybe? Under what condtions? If we make a profit, can you see management in 2009 negotiations telling the labor groups that they can't give improvements because we will be right back where we came from? Isn't this what we will hear? Or the UCT will save us. You know this, right.... Everyone will be saved by the UCT. Just like TWA? Do you think we could negotiatiate our work rules back? Better medical coverages and less expensive? Do you know of anytime in history that this has occured with medical or LTD, or OJI benefits? Sick provisions will improve? You think maybe this mangement would be on drugs or something by then to give in to this? Huh?
So, "chest pounding". Interesting again. I think you gave that same schpeel one year ago, right before this management asked the PBGC to termiante your pensions. OH, still, that again was not "another day to fight"?
The fact remains in your book, there is no day to ever fight! It is just give and give and give, in order for YOU TO HAVE YOUR JOB SAVED. Cause I am sure as I sit here, that if YOU were on the chopping block with productivity enhancements, YOU would be singing a different tune. Yea, yea, you have other opportunities, like you said before....BUT YOU DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE. You're still here!!!!
Tell me sir, is this "corporate transaction" going to be known at the time the "business plan" is unveiled to labor, or is this your little secret with senior management types and they allowed you to share it in this public forum? Or could they be luring you in to convincing those on these boards how important it is that labor includes themelves in the UCT and give, give, give....?
If your labor group goes to the table and gives concessions in the way of work rules that has the f/as tied into a "me too", then we as f/a are basically f$%&ed! I can't see any group, even after seeing the business plan, giving more and rewarding bad management. Tell us, have they let you in on what they plan to contribute towards that $300 Million?????
If you drag us in with the "me toos", we won't go to any table and give management "free reign" on our work rules and quality of life. Management took the prouctivity enhancements this past winter. Whatever they forgot to include in language, they are just stealing presently.
Go pound salt, and tell your "Inside" informant, it ain't working down here!
repeet
Veteran
This is where you guys are miscalculating. I can't speak for the other employee groups, but I know how the mechanics feel.
WE'RE RIDING THIS ONE TO THE GROUND!
Most everyone I talk to, is looking forward to a year off, with unemployment, so that we can put our lives back together. At lunch they compare notes about which online schools they can attend with Federal re-training money. Another topic is just what would be a "safe" career in our current economic environment.
So if Crystal City is waiting for their oppressive policies and dire predictions to cause a mass exodus, then they've seriously mis-calculated yet again.
This is OUR company. We were here before you came, and we'll be here after your gone. We're not going to suffer sub industry wages and benefits for possibly decades, just so a small group can rape and run.
We're staying, whether this company makes money, or they end up locking the doors.
Until then, tape this to your foreheads:
i'm totally aware as are most others of the covenants stated with the atsb loan and its june 31st deadline for cash.
every union should listen to the transformation plan and then act accordingly
the unions are also aware of what the company wishes for and hopes they will do.you must realize that the labor groups were coerced or connived into the recent giveback scenario as they have come to realize the company really didn't have a rationale for emerging from BK.it is blatantly obvious the only reason they exited so early was so they didn't lose their credit card processor.....duh....that was the true focus of their attention and it was here that they lost their vision...ask anyone on wall street.
If the company can stabilize its finances, then employees will have options such as maintaining employment at US Airways and then continuing employment after the corporate transaction, which will occur.
and after this magical UCT that you lean to...what if anything will be left for U employees then?didn't we learn from the lesson of the piedmont aquisition?and the trimming and eliminating there that was not done for too long?so this wonderful UCT will obviously eliminate a whole myriad of people and services already in place...lets vote for the UCT.
Moreover, how about certain employees that must have the medical insurance. how would they be without htis benefit
there are no "certain employees"who need this benefit any more or less than the one you'e indicated.everyone is one way or another,now or in the future equally reliant on these benefits.it is painful that some have the burden that they do and i don't wish that burden on anyone.
Nobody likes the economic realities of the network carrier marketplace, but now is not the time to “pound the chest
i don't see anyone pounding the chest as you say...all i see are a group of people who eagerly yearn for some sign of confidence that if and when they ante up to help their employer,that they have some semblance of return for their sacrifices.like i stated before,the days of "blind faith" are over.you should prepare yourself for these eventualities.
i thank you for your opinion and response....
delldude
every union should listen to the transformation plan and then act accordingly
the unions are also aware of what the company wishes for and hopes they will do.you must realize that the labor groups were coerced or connived into the recent giveback scenario as they have come to realize the company really didn't have a rationale for emerging from BK.it is blatantly obvious the only reason they exited so early was so they didn't lose their credit card processor.....duh....that was the true focus of their attention and it was here that they lost their vision...ask anyone on wall street.
If the company can stabilize its finances, then employees will have options such as maintaining employment at US Airways and then continuing employment after the corporate transaction, which will occur.
and after this magical UCT that you lean to...what if anything will be left for U employees then?didn't we learn from the lesson of the piedmont aquisition?and the trimming and eliminating there that was not done for too long?so this wonderful UCT will obviously eliminate a whole myriad of people and services already in place...lets vote for the UCT.
Moreover, how about certain employees that must have the medical insurance. how would they be without htis benefit
there are no "certain employees"who need this benefit any more or less than the one you'e indicated.everyone is one way or another,now or in the future equally reliant on these benefits.it is painful that some have the burden that they do and i don't wish that burden on anyone.
Nobody likes the economic realities of the network carrier marketplace, but now is not the time to “pound the chest
i don't see anyone pounding the chest as you say...all i see are a group of people who eagerly yearn for some sign of confidence that if and when they ante up to help their employer,that they have some semblance of return for their sacrifices.like i stated before,the days of "blind faith" are over.you should prepare yourself for these eventualities.
i thank you for your opinion and response....
delldude
USA320Pilot,
There will be no sale of the Shuttle nor LGA. Executive management is well aware that said sales would be tantamount to "burning the house to stay warm this Winter." However, there will be further capacity/schedule reductions for the Shuttle (smaller a/c, no flying during non-peak hours).
The sale of PSA is more likely.
You have been dismissing the pending sales of assets to Virgin America. You've been quick to citie foreign ownership restrictions. However, there are ways around such restrictions; and they are being worked on right now.
There will be no sale of the Shuttle nor LGA. Executive management is well aware that said sales would be tantamount to "burning the house to stay warm this Winter." However, there will be further capacity/schedule reductions for the Shuttle (smaller a/c, no flying during non-peak hours).
The sale of PSA is more likely.
You have been dismissing the pending sales of assets to Virgin America. You've been quick to citie foreign ownership restrictions. However, there are ways around such restrictions; and they are being worked on right now.
UseYourHead
Veteran
- Apr 1, 2003
- 720
- 0
This is very telling indeed. So your plan is to sponge unemployment for a year (I'm sure doing everything you can to not get a job) while getting your life together? What magical event will happen, that will result in that?repeet said:
Let me clue you in on something. THERE IS NO SAFE CAREER...I am back in college with people that have been in various careers for 25 + years, they are out of work too. They are chasing the SAFE career as am I...guess what, outsourcing is alive and well in any high paying sector. The more research papers I write, the more I realize how good we all have it here.
I hate to break the news to you, but, this job is by FAR the best you will ever have. The sooner you realize that, the better off you are going to be.
This is a question for the bigest complainers on this board; besides unempoyment, have you seriously looked for a job, and considered your options after unemployment runs out?
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
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Use Your Head,
Typical union busting retorhic to make assumptions that folks will sponge unemployment and it will take a magical event to find other work. You need some serious help with a shrink cause you have some self-image problems and are so frightened of the world. Don't try to misplace your fear of life and trasfer it to others. Get a grip!
"Far best job you will ever have".....? Many of my peers don't see it that way. They don't even want to be "saved" on the furlough. They want out. That is yet another issue for AFA on the "award decision". Yes we must, must follow our language to the tee. But there are those who don't want the job and don't want to have to move again from their families and their original base and pay for another transfer, when they just returned with all their belongings from the displaced base. They want an opportunity to look for other work. If they now resign, they can't protect themselves financially and collect unemployment. In your mind's eye, unemployment is abuse; IN OUR MIND'S EYE AND THE REST OF THOSE WHO FIND THEMSELVES IN THIS SITUATION, IT IS A RELIEF VALVE UNTIL THEY CAN SECURE GOOD EMPLOYMENT! UE benefits does not make someone wealthy. And its insurance as a benefit to employees paid by the employer AND at present, a deduction on my paycheck! I guess your "life insurance " policy would be considered a hand out? Yes, no, maybe??????
In your "cherry world", life is probably still grand. Obviously YOU didn't give enough until it hurts. For your group, you may just get your wish...
Advice: Stay in school no matter what. Its education...now that's the BEST thing around.
I'm still here for other reasons, you would know nothing about. I spent 23 years in this profession and I will do all I can to perserve the "integrity" of our profession by raising the bar for all in this profession; not just here at U.
Typical union busting retorhic to make assumptions that folks will sponge unemployment and it will take a magical event to find other work. You need some serious help with a shrink cause you have some self-image problems and are so frightened of the world. Don't try to misplace your fear of life and trasfer it to others. Get a grip!
"Far best job you will ever have".....? Many of my peers don't see it that way. They don't even want to be "saved" on the furlough. They want out. That is yet another issue for AFA on the "award decision". Yes we must, must follow our language to the tee. But there are those who don't want the job and don't want to have to move again from their families and their original base and pay for another transfer, when they just returned with all their belongings from the displaced base. They want an opportunity to look for other work. If they now resign, they can't protect themselves financially and collect unemployment. In your mind's eye, unemployment is abuse; IN OUR MIND'S EYE AND THE REST OF THOSE WHO FIND THEMSELVES IN THIS SITUATION, IT IS A RELIEF VALVE UNTIL THEY CAN SECURE GOOD EMPLOYMENT! UE benefits does not make someone wealthy. And its insurance as a benefit to employees paid by the employer AND at present, a deduction on my paycheck! I guess your "life insurance " policy would be considered a hand out? Yes, no, maybe??????
In your "cherry world", life is probably still grand. Obviously YOU didn't give enough until it hurts. For your group, you may just get your wish...
Advice: Stay in school no matter what. Its education...now that's the BEST thing around.
I'm still here for other reasons, you would know nothing about. I spent 23 years in this profession and I will do all I can to perserve the "integrity" of our profession by raising the bar for all in this profession; not just here at U.
OP
USA320Pilot
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- May 18, 2003
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- #44
If the current US Airways job for all employees were not their best opportunity, they would not be currently employed at the company.
I believe it is best to have a job, make your current income, have medical/dental benefits, and travel privileges than to be on unemployment looking for work. It's in the best interests of all labor groups to cut the best contract change agreement that they can obtain, then if necessary move on with pay and benefits while seeking other employment -- versus going cold turkey and leaving your family unprotected.
In my opinion, that's called responsibility.
In regard to potential asset sales, my comments above were somewhat speculative, although it's almost certain PSA and maybe Allegheny/Piedmont will be sold. There could be some assets sold to Virgin USA and I understand there has been some discussion, but my point is that it's against the law for Richard Branson to hold more than 49% of the company.
As far as a corporate transaction, once the transformation plan is implemented, with or without labor support and US Airways stabilizes its finances, then a corporate combination will proceed. Consolidation is inevitable and there are a number of interested parties involved in the discussions, e.g. ATSB, DOJ, DOT, commercial lenders, RSA, US Airways, and another airline. Because of the uncertainty surrounding the industry-wide restructuring, the final business combination is still being determined, but it will occur.
The only real question for labor is who will fly and support US Airways' assets in the future? Current US Airways employees or furloughees from other carriers?
Here's the point. The ATSB loan guarantee requires US Airways to maintain a minimum unrestricted cash balance of $1 billion until June 30. This will either be done with labor cooperation or asset sales. Then the company has specific EBITDAR requirements to meet, which will also be done with or without labor support. Once the company is stabilized, then the corporate combination will proceed and dependent upon labor accords, may occur with or without certain labor groups.
When considering management actions, I believe it's important to note David Bronner holds 51% voting power and is a very large United Airlines bankruptcy creditor, according to court records. He's a business man and he will not let labor get in his way of protecting his investment.
Contract changes are coming one way or another, either through consensual accords or through an "involuntary" Chapter 7 liquidation. The ATSB and RSA hold all of the cards, period.
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot
I believe it is best to have a job, make your current income, have medical/dental benefits, and travel privileges than to be on unemployment looking for work. It's in the best interests of all labor groups to cut the best contract change agreement that they can obtain, then if necessary move on with pay and benefits while seeking other employment -- versus going cold turkey and leaving your family unprotected.
In my opinion, that's called responsibility.
In regard to potential asset sales, my comments above were somewhat speculative, although it's almost certain PSA and maybe Allegheny/Piedmont will be sold. There could be some assets sold to Virgin USA and I understand there has been some discussion, but my point is that it's against the law for Richard Branson to hold more than 49% of the company.
As far as a corporate transaction, once the transformation plan is implemented, with or without labor support and US Airways stabilizes its finances, then a corporate combination will proceed. Consolidation is inevitable and there are a number of interested parties involved in the discussions, e.g. ATSB, DOJ, DOT, commercial lenders, RSA, US Airways, and another airline. Because of the uncertainty surrounding the industry-wide restructuring, the final business combination is still being determined, but it will occur.
The only real question for labor is who will fly and support US Airways' assets in the future? Current US Airways employees or furloughees from other carriers?
Here's the point. The ATSB loan guarantee requires US Airways to maintain a minimum unrestricted cash balance of $1 billion until June 30. This will either be done with labor cooperation or asset sales. Then the company has specific EBITDAR requirements to meet, which will also be done with or without labor support. Once the company is stabilized, then the corporate combination will proceed and dependent upon labor accords, may occur with or without certain labor groups.
When considering management actions, I believe it's important to note David Bronner holds 51% voting power and is a very large United Airlines bankruptcy creditor, according to court records. He's a business man and he will not let labor get in his way of protecting his investment.
Contract changes are coming one way or another, either through consensual accords or through an "involuntary" Chapter 7 liquidation. The ATSB and RSA hold all of the cards, period.
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
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A320pilot,
Gee, it must be tuff every morning getting up and feeling that someone else, who you don't even know, holds you and your family's destiny.
No, A320, you have given someone else control of your life, THAT IS IRRESPONISIBILITY!
This is a job, like any job. Most folks have been her for 5 years and up. It was good employment because we had contracts that provided FOR OUR FAMILIES and benefits that protected us while employed. We were all planing to stay and retire here.
Now, there will be many, and there are many, that have moved on. Senior execs are here for 1 reason.....TO MAXIMISE THEIR PERSONAL SHAREHOLDER VALUES, THAT WAS AWARDED TO THEM THROUGH THEIR CONTRACTS AND THE BOD.
Each employee will consider if giving more hurts them personally more while being employed, or not. What ever that decision is, it will obviously effect you! But for some, it will not....because the job is turning into a bad one, real fast. Perhaps, not in your world, or the senior execs, but for many out there.
Take the blinders OFF!
PS: I don't give a damn if Bronner owns 80% of the vote on the BOD or 100%. But, I will tell you what I care about...if Bronner STAKE increases to 51%, THEN THAT WOULD BE A TRIGGERING CONTACTUAL EVENT. AFA did not give up that language, but you did in the winter restruc. agreement. Now that would make things very, very interesting, indeedy.
Gee, it must be tuff every morning getting up and feeling that someone else, who you don't even know, holds you and your family's destiny.
No, A320, you have given someone else control of your life, THAT IS IRRESPONISIBILITY!
This is a job, like any job. Most folks have been her for 5 years and up. It was good employment because we had contracts that provided FOR OUR FAMILIES and benefits that protected us while employed. We were all planing to stay and retire here.
Now, there will be many, and there are many, that have moved on. Senior execs are here for 1 reason.....TO MAXIMISE THEIR PERSONAL SHAREHOLDER VALUES, THAT WAS AWARDED TO THEM THROUGH THEIR CONTRACTS AND THE BOD.
Each employee will consider if giving more hurts them personally more while being employed, or not. What ever that decision is, it will obviously effect you! But for some, it will not....because the job is turning into a bad one, real fast. Perhaps, not in your world, or the senior execs, but for many out there.
Take the blinders OFF!
PS: I don't give a damn if Bronner owns 80% of the vote on the BOD or 100%. But, I will tell you what I care about...if Bronner STAKE increases to 51%, THEN THAT WOULD BE A TRIGGERING CONTACTUAL EVENT. AFA did not give up that language, but you did in the winter restruc. agreement. Now that would make things very, very interesting, indeedy.
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