What If ?

[diogenes]

orioleman,

Y'all can do it the way I suggested and maintain your voting rights.

This isn't theory - I watched an agent run IAM ragged this way. If one agent can tie them in knots, guess what 1,000's can do?

 

[perserverance]

Guys,
I have said this is a path I am looking at and I will pursue when
and if the Canales' of the world get re-elected and the next offer from
the company is sub par and voted down again. I will stay til my vote no
longer counts. I will vote against Canale and against any T/A or agreement
that falls short on respect. That being said if Canale wins and a agreement is
pushed or voted through that is in effect below respectful, I'm done. I'll keep
my job and pay less dues'.

Thanks

 

[orioleman]

hang in there perv.
there is change in the air. trust me on that .

glad to have your insight back on the board

 

[awausairtech]

Well I guess you forgot even if you vote in a differant union the amendable date will not change.

And come on, no comeback with facts about how the ibt/cba at HP was the worst in the industry and they could not reach a new one for three years?

Don't let the facts get in your way.

AS YOU SAID: (Well I guess you forgot even if you vote in a differant union the amendable date will not change.)

BUT THE UNION WILL AND I HOPE IT WILL BE IBT AND NOT IAM AND ITS LIES........IT WILL TAKE TILL 2011 TO GET A CONTRACT SO WHY NOT VOTE OUT THIS DUE SUCKING UNION AND GET A UNION THAT WILL WORK FOR THE DUE PAYING MEMBERS....JUST LOOK AT THE TOP AIRLINES AND FRIGHT ?????? WHO HAS THE TOP PAY.............IBT...........................TIME TO GET THE FACTS AND THE TRUTH!!!!!

 

[700UW]

Actually top pay at the airlines is AMFA at WN, not IBT. Freight, UPS, why do they farm out all their heavy maintenance?

I see a trend here with all the ibt cba's all of the carriers farm out all their heavy maintenance.

Once again you post misinformation.

Give it a rest there will be no card drive for M&R.

And when are you going to answer why the IBT/HP CBA was the lowest in the industry and why for three years could they not obtain a new one?

 

[awausairtech]

Actually top pay at the airlines is AMFA at WN, not IBT. Freight, UPS, why do they farm out all their heavy maintenance?

I see a trend here with all the ibt cba's all of the carriers farm out all their heavy maintenance.

Once again you post misinformation.

Give it a rest there will be no card drive for M&R.

And when are you going to answer why the IBT/HP CBA was the lowest in the industry and why for three years could they not obtain a new one?

1. {why the IBT/HP CBA was the lowest in the industry }---It was the first contract hp had and as they were never union before and as you know a first contract is never that good. 2. { why for three years could they not obtain a new one?}---HP KNOWS HOW TO STALL JUST LIKE THEY ARE DOING NOW. If you think this merger was done in just a few week you need help, They held the IBT M&R contract down to keep it in line with your (USAIR) pay scale and that was at that time was more than the IAM cba!!!!!! THE STALL is still on for the next merger. AND JUST FOR YOUR INFO. THE AMFA CONTRACT AT WN IS A IBT CONTRACT THAT AMFA IS ADMITERSTING JUST LIKE THE IAM IS DOING FOR THE IBT WEST CONTRACT NOW!!!! PS. I SEE A TREND TO IAM FARMING OUT HEAVY MX!!!!!! FACT IS FACT...........

 

[700UW]

The AMFA, CBA at WN was extended and changed slighty and some improvements were made in pay in September of 2004, why did you fail to post that?

And AMFA is in Section 6 Negotiations at the present moment for the AMT CBA at WN.

Go check out Tramco, you will see WN's heavy maintenance in action.

At US ALL the A320s are done in-house, 50% of the 737s and they are bring back the 757s in-house slowly as well as mods on the 767s and A330s.

Can you say the same about any IBT represented AMTS?

UPS, has their work done at ST MAE at BFM, CO send their planes to Hong Kong and other MRO's.



And if you look at the East Pay Scales, there have been two raises since the merger, pay is equal now, isnt it?

 

[awausairtech]

The AMFA, CBA at WN was extended and changed slighty and some improvements were made in pay in September of 2004, why did you fail to post that?

And AMFA is in Section 6 Negotiations at the present moment for the AMT CBA at WN.

Go check out Tramco, you will see WN's heavy maintenance in action.

At US ALL the A320s are done in-house, 50% of the 737s and they are bring back the 757s in-house slowly as well as mods on the 767s and A330s.

Can you say the same about any IBT represented AMTS?

UPS, has their work done at ST MAE at BFM, CO send their planes to Hong Kong and other MRO's.



And if you look at the East Pay Scales, there have been two raises since the merger, pay is equal now, isnt it?

UNDER THE WEST IBT CONTRACT ANY WORK SUCH AS C-CHECKS, MODS IF FARMED OUT IF DONE ONCE IN HOUSE WOULD STAY IN HOUSE, NOT 50%!!! ALL WORK If DONE ONCE IN HOUSE STAYS!!!!! BUT I GUESS YOU FAILED TO POST THAT!!!!! ALSO THE C-CHECKS WERE FARMED OUT BEFORE THE IBT WAS ON PROPERTY AT HP SO THE IBT DID NOT GIVE UP C-CHECK TO OUTSOURCING LIKE THE IAM DID AT USAIR!!!!! BUT I GUESS YOU FAILED TO POST THAT ALSO!!!!! IF THE EAST HAD VOTED IN IBT WE WOULD HAVE 100% C-CHECKS UNDER OUR CBA AND BY NOW A CONTRACT. SO WHEN YOU TRY TO TELL ME HOW GOOD THE IAM IS FOR ME AND MY AMT BROTHERS YOU MAKE ME ILL!!!!

 

[awausairtech]

The AMFA, CBA at WN was extended and changed slighty and some improvements were made in pay in September of 2004, why did you fail to post that?

And AMFA is in Section 6 Negotiations at the present moment for the AMT CBA at WN.

WAS NOT WN IAM THEN IBT AND NOW AMFA????????????why did you fail to post that?

 

[700UW]

So how come the IBT could not get the work back inhouse?

Excuses, Excuses!

And it took two bankruptcies, an abrogation in order for US to farmout any checks.

US/East still does more heavy then the west ever did.

Don't let the facts get in your way.

WN AMTs were never IAM.

Wrong again, the East CBA will be the prevailing CBA no matter what union was voted in, so keep trying.

Keep deflecting and keep avoiding the questions and the facts.

 

[brokenwrench]

So how come the IBT could not get the work back inhouse?

Excuses, Excuses!

And it took two bankruptcies, an abrogation in order for US to farmout any checks.

US/East still does more heavy then the west ever did.

Don't let the facts get in your way.

WN AMTs were never IAM.

Wrong again, the East CBA will be the prevailing CBA no matter what union was voted in, so keep trying.

Keep deflecting and keep avoiding the questions and the facts.

FY 1980 20 Southwest IAM (Mechs.) 1/13/80 2/1/80
Strike Report

Don't let the facts get in YOUR way!

Here are some more facts for ya.

FACT: The IAM crossed a legal picket line at NW.
FACT: The IAM, after crossing a picket line then performed STRUCK work.
FACT: Since the leadership of the IAM changed after the 1989 EA strike they have become a toothless company union.

 

[700UW]

Lets try this again.

The IAM, ALPA, PFAA, TWU all were not on strike and did not have to honor the amfa picket line.

The NWA/ESE IAM CBA contained the language that ramp could do ancillary duties where amfa was not staffed.

AMFA struck, NW imposed a new CBA which deleted ancillary duties from M&R.

And your beloved IBT, read this:

IBT represented Champion Air flies flights for NW when AMFA strike begins, so they the IBT Flew over the AMFA Picket line and did struck work.

Boeing Machinists Strike, 1948
HistoryLink.org Essay 2283
Printer-Friendly Format

On April 22, 1948, the Aeronautical Machinists Union, IAM District Lodge 751, struck the Boeing Company. William Allen was then president of Boeing. For the Machinists the issues were preserving longstanding seniority rules that the company wanted to scrap, and achieving a 10 cent per hour raise for all categories of labor. The strike was characterized by the unusual occurrence of another union, Dave Beck's Teamsters, collaborating with the company to defeat the machinists union. On September 13, 1948, the Machinists returned to work without a victory, but in the subsequent NLRB-supervised election they soundly defeated the Teamsters.
New Era, New Manager

On September 5, 1945, William Allen, a longtime attorney at the Boeing Company, assumed the presidency of the aircraft company. Almost immediately, massive postwar layoffs began. Allen brought a different labor relations philosophy to the company -- as Boeing employees would find out before the new decade began.

1947 Contract Negotiations

When contract negotiations began in January 1947, it became clear that the Boeing Company wanted to turn back the clock on seniority provisions that had been negotiated as far back as 1937. For example, the company wanted 10 percent of the bargaining unit to be exempt from seniority; it wanted blanket disqualification of women from open jobs if, in the Boeing Company's opinion, the job required a man; and it wanted the elimination of plant-wide seniority. The Machinists' union wanted to protect seniority and to attain a 10 cents per hour raise for all labor grades.

Formal negotiations opened on March 16, 1947, with the 1946 contract "in full force and effect." By April, the Machinists' Union accused the Boeing Company of not negotiating in good faith and filed strike notice (a 30 day cooling off period was required.)

On May 10, 1947, the union held a General Membership Meeting to discuss the situation. On May 24, 1947, the union rejected the Boeing Company's final offer and authorized a strike. From June to December 1947, the company and the union negotiated only sporadically.

Boeing Revises Its Proposal

The Boeing Company submitted a revised proposal on January 6, 1948 and negotiations were intensive for about 90 days. At mid-March 15, the Machinists' Union offered to submit unresolved articles to arbitration. The Boeing Company demanded the right of veto in the choice of arbiters and demanded to submit the entire contract to arbitration. The Machinists' Union refused those conditions. On March 26, 1948, under provisions of the new Taft-Hartley law, the NLRB (National Labor Relations Board) held an election to determine if the union was authorized to negotiate a union shop. The vote was a resounding 12,000 YES to 800 NO.

April Deadlines Set

On April 13, 1948, the Machinists' Union established April 16 as the deadline for choice of arbiters. The Boeing Company refused to budge. So, on April 20, the Machinists' Union District Council and 320 shop stewards voted to strike at 12.30 a.m., April 22, 1948. The Machinists' Union District Council met again on April 21 to review the circumstances. One report tells of some of the reaction:

"Grand Lodge Representative Cotton addressed this meeting and cautioned the members as to possible consequences of such strike action, reminding them of their weak strategic position, and informing them that the advice of the Grand Lodge (the national union) was to stay on the job. However, emotions were running high and he was booed from the platform."
At the prescribed time on April 22, 1948, the Machinists' Union members laid down their tools and struck the Boeing Company. By April 28, the national union, International Association of Machinists, granted strike sanction.

Dave Beck's Not-So-Friendly Intervention - Local 451 Formed

On May 28, 1948, Dave Beck, president of Joint Council 28 of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, announced that Teamsters would seek jurisdiction at the Boeing Company. At this time, the IAM was not affiliated with the American Federation of Labor (AFL), having disaffiliated in 1945 over the failure of the AFL to settle a jurisdictional dispute between the IAM and the United Brotherhood of Carpenters.

Beck's raid was intended to capture all of Machinists' Union 751 membership. He organized Aeronautical Workers and Warehousemen Helpers Union Local 451. He opened a hiring hall to recruit strike breakers for Boeing. In the words of Sam Bassett, an attorney on the Teamsters' staff during 1948 (and a founder of the oldest labor law firm in Seattle), "I am sure that Mr. Allen will not deny that he came to Dave Beck's office and requested him to assist in breaking the strike of the Aero Mechanics' Union."

Beck and Boeing recruited strikebreakers and scabs through most of the 1948 strike period. (Note: The term strikebreaker is used to mean a person newly hired during a strike; a scab is an employee who crosses a picket line set up by co-workers.)
NLRB Acts

In June 1948, the National Labor Relations Board requested District Court to grant an injunction requiring the Boeing Company to bargain. The court refused. By late July, it was becoming difficult for the Machinists' Union to remain on strike. The Boeing Company refused to bargain. The Boeing Company, with Beck and the Teamsters, was recruiting strikebreakers and some members are becoming scabs. On July 20, the NLRB ordered the Boeing Company "to cease and desist from refusing to bargain with Lodge 751" and to reinstate "all employees who went on strike on April 22, 1948, without prejudice."

In August, William Allen and the Boeing Company announced their intention both to ignore the NLRB and to carry the case to the U.S. Supreme Court. The Boeing Company defied the NLRB until September.

Machinists End Strike

On September 13, 1948, Machinists' Union members went back to work for the following reasons:


They were concerned about the Teamsters Local 451.

the cost of the strike had gone over $2 million.

About a third of the original 14,000 members had defected.

The Boeing Company continued to refuse to bargain.

The Boeing Company and Beck and the Teamsters continued to recruit strikers.

The provisions of the new Taft-Hartley Act made the strike more difficult to win.
The Boeing Company took the workers back because it was accruing a large financial burden with a fine of $172,000 per day from the NLRB reinstatement order, and, probably, most importantly, high military authorities wanted no further delay in production of the B50 because of Cold War pressures.

This set the stage for the NLRB election between Machinists' Union District Lodge 751, International Brotherhood of Teamsters Local 451, and the Taft-Hartley required "No Union." The International Association of Machinists, District Lodge 751's national union, was outside the AFL and had been since 1945. In the minds of other AFL affiliates that made IAM local unions the same as renegade unions and so-called fair game for raiding. Though some AFL and CIO unions supported District Lodge 751, the powerful Seattle Central Labor Council threw its support behind William Allan's "labor statesman" Dave Beck and Local 451.

The NLRB set the election for November 1, 1949. Despite the help of AFL president William Green, Beck's Teamsters lost that election. District Lodge 751 received 8,107 votes; the Teamsters Local 451 received 4,127 votes, and the Taft-Hartley "No union" received a mere 401 votes.

And this:

November 19, 1991 - Locked Out

Longest Canadian Airline Labor Dispute is On!

At 10:30 or so on the morning of November 19th,1991, we were told at a meeting scheduled for negotiations that we'd been locked out. In fact, the people walking the picket line knew before those of us in the meeting did!

The company thought we'd crumble, that the flight attendants and pursers, who were young and inexperienced in the labor movement, would cross their own picket lines in droves.

We lasted 16 months, weathering 2 Canadian winters, being followed home by company paid goons, having our phones tapped (illegally), defying police who were too busy harassing us to bother with the real criminals in Toronto, and a government that was too busy trying to bury a damning Safety Review on Nationair than it was/is about the safety of the airline industry in Canada.

A sampling of the players?... traitors in our midst, management puppets too stupid to know better (Hi Val!), company moles, scab unions, the mediator who solved the Oka Native crisis in Quebec, and other flight attendants who suddenly thought they knew what was best for everyone, after years of complacency and flying to exotic locales for extended periods of time while we were in negotiations

Oy vay, what an education!

I had some cop from Peel Regional Police (Bernie) intimate (accent on the last syllable there) that he'd use his gun on me if I repeated something he told me... wish I could remember what it was so I could tell you!

We learned that the Prime Minister of Canada (both past and present) are/were in bed with the President of Nationair. A personal letter I sent to Prime Minister Jean Chretien, was forwarded to the President of Nationair....now up on fraud charges.

Kim Campbell, who at the time was the Minister of Defense, didn't seem to see a problem allowing our military and their families fly in and out of Miltary airbases in Germany on aircraft of dubious integrity with at least one scab flight attendant with an even more dubious background. She was arrested on an INTERPOL warrant for heroin smuggling.

In the absence of federal anti-scab legislation, Nationairs' goons harassed, assaulted and intimidated picketters. Nationair's chief of security was charged with assault after punching a locked-out flight attendant. One scab was arrested for pulling a shotgun on picketers in Mirabel Airport.

Our Mediator was Judge Gold, was "famous" at that time as the guy in Canada that could solve disputes with Canada Post and the "Oka Crisis" (which involved Natives in Quebec upset about people building a golf course on their burial land so they put up blockades to protest, in which 1 person was killed by shotgun fire).

A fair man. Twice, he made mediation recommendations that were not binding on either party. (This was not binding arbitration) Recommendations in which either party was neither winning or losing everything in dispute. Twice the mediator recommended the same salaries that we'd be asking for (which were in line with the other Charter carriers in Canada at the time, one of which is still in business) Twice the flight attendants said "okay", and twice Nationair said ''no way". (Eventually, when it's very survival was at risk, Nationair would agree to the exact same salaries they'd twice said "no" to)

One of the more unusual suggestions he made was that the lockout and the union boycott be "suspended" for a period of 6 months, the locked out employees go back to work under their old conditions, and both parties continue to negotiate/mediate. He would work with us as long as it took. The Flight Attendant group voted in favor, the company refused, saying that if we came back, it would be under the "new" conditions that the scabs were working under. The Mediator was not amused.

A SCAB Union?
One of the more bizarre aspects to the lockout was the International Brotherhood of Teamsters and their involvement in the attempt at the unionizing of SCABs at Nationair.

When the Flight Attendants/Pursers and In-Flight Service Managers first unionized with CUPE, Nationair froze the ISM position and created the IFD position, which was not unionized and was a managerial position. This in effect, removed one working body from our aircraft, unless you were working with one of the few ISM's left. IFD's could not participate in service as that was "owned" by our bargaining unit. Nationair did not want to put another flight attendant on board, and felt (initially) that they needed a manager who was not part of any union on board, to be the eyes and ears of Management.

As most would probably expect, eventually, the IFD's decided to unionize, so CUPE and the Teamsters battled it out. Each holding information/disinformation meetings as the case may be. The Teamsters won the certification vote. This happened before the lockout.

So during the lockout the Teamsters set sights on the scabs. Getting them to sign union cards and saying that they would be the only group certified to work on Nationair aircraft and that the locked out flight attendants walking the picket lines would be history, never coming back because they weren't part of the Teamsters union.

As it turned out, Nationair didn't have a problem with it's flight attendants being part of a union, as long as it was the Teamsters union. Apparently, what they really had a problem with was CUPE. You know you're in trouble when a company wants you to join a certain union.

It all got rather confusing I'm sure... the company endorsing one union over the one they'd locked out, saying that they'll negotiate with the Teamsters but not CUPE, the Teamsters claiming that they were the official representatives of the "new" flight attendants, and then the locked out union members picketing corporate headquarters and saying that they were the first and only bargaining unit for flight attendants.

So not only were Teamster members protecting scabs as they crossed CUPE picket lines, but they were trying to break the CUPE union and replace CUPE members with scabs.

When it was all over, Nationair had spent so much money fighting us, training scabs (well over $200,000), paying over $35,000 a month for it's "private security" goons, not paying it's bills, third-party liability insurance, landing fees, fuel taxes and what-not, that they declared bankruptcy on our first day back at work. Not only that, but the President , who cared about nothing more than his reputation, found that reputation somewhat sullied by his sudden inability to get away with mis-representations, the resignation of 3 V.P.s, (VP of Communications, Head of Marketing and Chief of Operations) and his company being linked to gun-running.

Eventually, one of our competitors would promise to hire everyone. Everyone that is, except for those nasty union officers. Sound discriminatory? We thought so too, as did the Canadian Labor Relations Board. Air Transat was found guilty of discriminating against us for our involvement in the union, totally disregarding our superior qualifications.

Pretty strange for a company that enjoys investment from the Solidarity Fund in Quebec, Canada. This is a fund made up of union member's contributions. (Of course these union people in Quebec haven't been told about this, and CUPE sure won't tell 'em, so keep it under your hat okay? They'd be plenty pissed if they found out they were financing a company that discriminates against union officers.

(Air Transat has a flight attendant union, but it's real cozy with them, if you get my drift....)

Gee, looks like the ibt is up to no good to me!

 

[brokenwrench]

WOW!
Cut and past, fun.

September 6, 2005
CSX Faces Rail Delays Due to Northwest Mechanic Strike


(Walbridge, OH) --- One union official says trains could be backed up from St. Louis to New York City, all because of some striking Northwest Airline Mechanics in Northwest Ohio.

The union for airplane mechanics is striking Northwest Airlines. Tuesday they picketed the CSX Rail yard in Walbridge, citing a federal law they claim allows them to extend the strike to rail transportation.

Teamsters who operate the yard say they will honor the strike and will not cross the mechanics' picket line --- That's virtually shuts down the yard.

"About 25 - 30 workers per shift who do yard work and over the road rail are affected and it will limit CSX activities," said Bud Morse, Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers.

A union official estimates the yard is 95-percent shut down, although CSX won't confirm that. :grin: :grin: :grin:

CSX says rail cars that pass through Walbridge carry grain, coal and general merchandise. The rail line won't estimate when or if consumers will be affected.

Kip Hedges, the former president of the IAM local said AMFA appealed to mechanics who were unhappy with the 1998 contract. “The AMFA made an elitist appeal suggesting mechanics as professional skilled workers could negotiate better on their own. They felt protected by their skill level, but they lost solidarity with the other workers,â€￾ said Hedges. While Hedges called the disaffiliation a big mistake, he honored the AMFA picket line. Hedges was among the 18,000 ground workers who stayed with IAM. Airline workers are governed under the Railway Labor Act. They may honor other union picket lines, unlike most organized labor who are governed under the NLRB. The IAM urged workers to cross the AMFA picket lines to get even for the disaffiliation. Hedges again: “IAM leadership feels AMFA are outside the labor movement. But once you have opened the doors to a lack of solidarity, you have opened the possibility of killing all the unions.â€￾

 

[awausairtech]

700 get your facts right! Some of us and can see the light!!!!!! WE ARE NOT BLIND OR HAVE OUR HEAD UP THE IAM'S A$$$ SO FAR THE THE LIGHT IS OUT.................................AND brokenwrench thanks for the time frame on WN AMT IAM, I did not have that info at the time I posted. lol you know someone only likes the facts!!!!! if I'm not mistaken 700 when did WN START TO FARM-OUT MX JOBS????????? AND 700 I WILL BE BACK......... VOTE IBT! AND FOR GOD SAKE CAN YOU FIND SOME NEWS THAT IS DURING THE TIME I HAVE BEEN ON THIS EARTH!!!! (Boeing Machinists Strike, 1948)

 

[robbedagain]

one trend is for fleet, they pay so dam much in union dues yet they get nothing or close to nothing, zilch, nada, zippo in return tim eto change leadership as far as im concerned the union is a company union no doubt about it yea during the 2nd ch11 they sold out 30 cities at least the CWA got to keep their folks a bit happier with their mainline pay etc