What does a Aircraft Tech make these Days?

[RUM@AA]

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On 6/8/2003 6:01:19 PM Checking it Out wrote:



This is more accurate Information;


http://www.aviationtoday.com/reports/avmai...lary_survey.htm
and
http://www.aviationtoday.com/reports/avmai...02/figure05.jpg


Two very good articles. I remember reading them last year. Only problem is they''re from LAST YEAR. We''re talking wages NOW. Now that AA management, along with their willing lapdogs Jim Little, Gary Yingst and Sonny the bus driver Hall have stripped us of 17.5% of our pay, 10 paid days off etc. etc. etc.
Truth is TWU does nothing to elevate the AMT in the eyes of the public. The one spokesman for AA mechanics on TV news lately has been Local 514 pres. who got kicked in the head by a horse when he was a kid and cain''t put tree woids ''gether without spittin'' a chew.

And to the idiot spewing all that crap about Singapore and NWA and AMFA, AA''s CF6-80C2A5 engines have been going to Singapore for close to 10 years!
Thing of all the AMTs that lost work because of that sell-out. I guess it''s AMFA''s fault that NWA laid of pilots and flight attendants too? You guys love to talk about NWA, what about Southwest? Word is their EXPANDING THEIR MAINTENANCE into light C at least. Hiring more mechanics! And they''re AMFA too.
Enough off topic. Can AMTs live in Tulsa on what AA pays? Yes, but the comfort level is much lower than it used to be. Can they live in NYC or LA or MIA on what AA pays? Yes...in poverty.
Shame on you TWU. You must be replaced.

 

[AAmech]

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On 6/8/2003 1130 PM RUM@AA wrote:

. Can they live in NYC or LA or MIA on what AA pays? Yes...in poverty.
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$60,000+ a year with full benefits before overtime is Poverty? A little detached from reality here!
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[Buck]

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On 6/9/2003 9:03:40 AM AAmech wrote:

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On 6/8/2003 1130 PM RUM@AA wrote:

You guys love to talk about NWA, what about Southwest? Word is their EXPANDING THEIR MAINTENANCE into light C at least. Hiring more mechanics! And they''re AMFA too.
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amfa has not been at SWA long enough to know where all the light switches are much less affect the work load. And SWA has been doing C checks for most of their existance. They even do a phased D checks.
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SWA has been doing heavy checks on their own, in house? Better tell this to J7915. He is continually ranting about this very subject, that SWA farms their heavies out.

 

[AAmech]

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On 6/8/2003 10:44:54 PM upsilon wrote:



I think this is a very good question and it disturbs me greatly to constantly read on this board that aviation mechanical specialist pay is behind automobile mechanical pay. If my car stops running, I pull over to the side of the road. The pilot of the airplane on which I am flying does not have such an easy option. I want all of the licensed and accountable professional aviation people to be paid for, and commensurate with, their skills on a competitive basis.



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There are instances where automotive mechanics make more than Aviation mechanics. But its hard to gauge. There are some big differences. Almost all auto mechanics are paid "flat rate". This means they only get paid when they are actually working. On a slow weeks they may make nothing! And to make good money as an auto mechanic requires you to be pretty sharp and fast so you can fix more cars and make more money. An auto mechanic must also stay on his bosses good side lest he send all the work to other mechanics and leave you unpaid. But there are some really good automechanics who know what they''re doing and make some serious Jack! Aircraft mechanics on the other hand are paid "by the hour". You get paid whether you''re working your butt off or sitting around reading the newspaper. Also a really lousy mechanic who''s barely capable of operating a screwdriver makes the same money as someone who''s troubleshooting an Autoland problem! I work with plenty of guys who were once automechanics who left the field to become Aircraft mechanics because the money was not there.

 

[AAmech]

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On 6/8/2003 1130 PM RUM@AA wrote:

You guys love to talk about NWA, what about Southwest? Word is their EXPANDING THEIR MAINTENANCE into light C at least. Hiring more mechanics! And they''re AMFA too.
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amfa has not been at SWA long enough to know where all the light switches are much less affect the work load. And SWA has been doing C checks for most of their existance. They even do a phased D checks.
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[AAmech]

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On 6/9/2003 9:16:17 AM Buck wrote:




SWA has been doing heavy checks on their own, in house? Better tell this to J7915. He is continually ranting about this very subject, that SWA farms their heavies out.

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Its a very common misconception that SWA farms out ALL their Heavy checks. They do C checks at their Phoenix base and phased D checks in Dallas. About 2 years ago they actually expanded their DAL base by two or three bays to handle the extra work. There''s very few if any back shops. I think they may have some electronic shops. All engine and landing gears are farmed out. Heavy checks are still done by Goodrich and Cascade in Canada. I don''t know the percentage of work done "in-house".

If you want to talk about an airline that farms out ALL its heavy maint see Continental Airlines!

 

[RUM@AA]

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On 6/9/2003 8:58:22 AM AAmech wrote:

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On 6/8/2003 1130 PM RUM@AA wrote:

. Can they live in NYC or LA or MIA on what AA pays? Yes...in poverty.
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$60,000+ a year with full benefits before overtime is Poverty?   A little detached from reality here!
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OK, would someone from NYC or LA or NEW HAMPSHIRE like to back me up on this one?

 

[j7915]

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On 6/8/2003 10:44:54 PM upsilon wrote:




I''ve learned a few things from this tread.  Thanks RUM@AA for the history lesson on the formation of the APFA.  Long ago I was a trade union member when my occupation required it.  But as a businessman, I have always been a strong supporter of my trade associations; because in organized strength there is power.

 

But if I still worked at a skilled trade, I would surely only want to be a member of, and represented by, an organization/union of my skill peers.  I am very familiar with the history of the trade based AFL (e.g., carpenters) and the industrial labor unionization gains made by the CIO (e.g., mineworkers, auto workers).

 

I have followed this board since the demise of the Plane Business board and am very familiar with many of  you through your handles and postings.  Although I may not agree with everything our new poster pricklyheat says, I think he has hit on a nerve that many of us pax worry about.  He stated above [Ellipses added to denote deletions]:

 

“The safety of my flight depends on the level of maintenance performed on a piece of machinery designed to defy gravity…This technician I talked to represented himself very professionally, but in his tone I could sense tension, stress, and concern…..I asked a question.  What does an aircraft technician make these days to perform a task on an aircraft that he has to live with rest of his life.  If I am not mistaken, a flight crew, FA''s included just pick up their bags and walk off the plane just like the passengers." 

 

I think this is a very good question and it disturbs me greatly to constantly read on this board that aviation mechanical specialist pay is behind automobile mechanical pay.  If my car stops running, I pull over to the side of the road.  The pilot of the airplane on which I am flying does not have such an easy option.  I want all of the licensed and accountable professional aviation people to be paid for, and commensurate with, their skills on a competitive basis.

 


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I will argue that the super specialization represented by AMFA is more harmful to US labor, than the hurt egos of line mechanics who have to have a baggage loader represent them.

Go do some serious digging into the German economy. They still have over 450+ specific skills, and it is killing their economy. While Germans are not as absurd as the British used to be, where a pipe fitter in a shipyard could not plug in his own work light, the requirement of certificates for every niche skill is causing export in jobs and raising costs for anything that cannot be imported, housing, services etc.

Airplanes are high value objects and it is economically feasible to transfer them to where the labor costs are lower. Much of the actually maintenance labor is not in the high skill category, and given sufficiently low labor costs you can train specialists and still come out ahead. Do I like it? No, can we change it, maybe, if we can deliver a voting block that scares the daylights out of the local politician. That means being a single issue voter, and that single issue is your paycheck. I personally don''t need Uncle Sam to watch over my personal moral behavior.

AA went the OSM route, NWA and SWA and others simply moved the work out to contractors.

I will almost bet that if a Mercedes Maybach gets wrecked, Mercedes will seriously consider shipping the car back to the factory or wherever they can find the cheapest labor, the cost of 200k+ will justify the shipping cost.

 

[RUM@AA]

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On 6/9/2003 9:29:36 AM AAmech wrote:


If you want to talk about an airline that farms out ALL its heavy maint see Continental Airlines!

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Hey, they''re not even AMFA...yet.
Let''s see..Southwest farms out MOST of their heavy work, They WERE Teamsters...now AMFA.
Continental farms out ALL their heavy work...Teamsters. Yet I can''t count the AA Mechanics who, when asked to sign AMFA cards say something to the effect of...."I just wish we could get the Teamsters." or "why can''t we get the Teamsters?"
Screwy, ain''t it?

 

[Bob Owens]

$60,000 Poverty? Well in NY its certainly not enough to support a family.
The question is "is it reasonable for a skilled licensed worker to expect a median lifestyle?" One that is comparable to that of a plumber, electrician or even a garbage man? Or should a mechanic, who in addition to his skills and the liability that practicing in his skills entails, has to work shift work, which not only seriously impairs his social life but also increases his risk of a shorter lifespan, be willing to give his labor for a marginal lifestyle? Should he make huge sacrifices so executives and stockholders can get rich and the public can fly cheap?

In NY a median home goes for at least $300,000. That means a Mortgage of $1516.97 (after putting $60K down @6.5% x 30 years)plus taxes of around $585. So every month at least $2101.97 is needed for the house. $25223.64 a year.Plus at least $800 for insurance. Now that $60,000, which was already knocked down to at least $42,000 by payroll taxes is knocked down to $15976.36. Most people have cars. Its not unreasonable that a mechanic should expect to have a car, and payments, thats another $6000, Down to $10,000. Fuel and insurance and maint, another $5000. Down to $5000, food for a family of four, at least another $6000, that puts us in the negative already without taking into account clothing, medical and other expenses. So yea, $60,000 is not much money in a place like NY. You can not support a family on it, that means that your wife would have to work if you did not work a second job. More than likely she would be working normal hours, 9 to 5, Sat/Sun and holidays off. You would rarely have time off together. So whats the point of doing this if there is no benifit? If we must settle for a marginal lifestyle why give up so much? Even more so why give maximum effort for minimal pay?

 

[AAmech]

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On 6/10/2003 1:31:05 AM j7915 wrote:

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I will argue that the super specialization represented by AMFA is more harmful to US labor, than the hurt egos of line mechanics who have to have a baggage loader represent them.

Go do some serious digging into the German economy. They still have over 450+ specific skills, and it is killing their economy. While Germans are not as absurd as the British used to be, where a pipe fitter in a shipyard could not plug in his own work light, the requirement of certificates for every niche skill is causing export in jobs and raising costs for anything that cannot be imported, housing, services etc.


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Whats killing this profession is not "super specialization"! Far from it! Its the total lack of any real standards governing who can work on an aircraft. Yes the Feds do have a licence (A&P) for people who work on aircraft. But they have written the laws with loopholes big enough to fly 777''s thru. Belive it or not, In the US it is perfectly legal to take ANY SCHMUCK off the street and let him work on an aircraft! You only need ONE person in the hanger to Sign for their work! This is the MO of the outside vendors who the airlines want to send OUR work to. Places with 10 to 1 ratios of unlicenced to licenced mechanics. Simple supply and demand will show you how this is killing our wages and profession. Its obviously much cheaper to lure a guy away from Wal-Mart to work in your hanger than it is to pay an experienced "Licenced" mechanic! Its ironic that this happens in a society that makes it a crime to cut someones hair without a licence or even embalm a body without a licence. Imagine that, its a crime to embalm a DEAD BODY without a proper licence. But you can work all day on a 747 that holds hundreds of LIVE ones with no credential WHATSOEVER!!!

 

[dogdriver]

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On 6/8/2003 12:57:17 PM RUM@AA wrote:

Pre-deregulation A&P Mechanics earned approx. 40% of a pilot's salary. Today that number is about 20%.

Rum@AA,
I hate to burst your bubble but your 20% number is total BS. I am a narrow body CA at AA and have 2 brothers who are mechs. They make at least 65% of what I am paid.

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 6/10/2003 9:49:33 AM dogdriver wrote:​

 

[RUM@AA]

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On 6/10/2003 9:49:33 AM dogdriver wrote:

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On 6/8/2003 12:57:17 PM RUM@AA wrote:

Pre-deregulation A&P Mechanics earned approx. 40% of a pilot''s salary. Today that number is about 20%.

Rum@AA,
I hate to burst your bubble but your 20% number is total BS. I am a narrow body CA at AA and have 2 brothers who are mechs. They make at least 65% of what I am paid.


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So you''re saying you make $100,000.00 a year? Wow, your union sucks too. And for how many hours a month do you fly? 60 max? I''m on the clock 40 hours a week, not counting unpaid lunch.
And what does a wide body captain make compaired to the avionics technician that fixes the autoland system? I''ve heard $350,000.00 to cross the pond. Yes or no?

 

[Buck]

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On 6/11/2003 10:51:39 AM dogdriver wrote:

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On 6/10/2003 8:43:04 PM Bob Owens wrote:

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Are you topped out? Come back and compare when you make it to the left seat in the 777.

I think you will find that his number is accurate when comparing topped out mechanics vs topped out pilots. Granted it takes a lot longer and there is no guarantee that you will ever get there but the numbers are right.


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Bob,
1. Yes I am "topped out". I''m on the MD-80 which now pays $139 an hour. Multiply that by 75 hours and you get $125,100 per year. Both of my brothers are also at top scale. One makes about $80,000 at NWA and the other makes about $90,000 at UPS. These are facts, not just a bunch of numbers parroted by someone who read something somewhere written by someone who knows nothing about aviation but likes to write trash because it stirs up people. Did you get all of that? It never ceases to amaze me how many people will believe just about anything that they read, especially if it''s a story about someone who earns more money than they do. Can you say envy?
2. Most pilots will never see the left seat of a 777. It''s based on seniority. I''ll never see it and I was hired in the middle of the pack in 1988. Oh well, that''s life. All mechs will see the top, unless they quit or die a premature death, so it''s not really an accurate comparison.

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Can you say AUTOPILOT