We're Not Alone...

[Decision 2004]

All you have to do is compare the stats among the majors to see that the Turnaround Plan is working. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out. :huh: And you are for afma. I expect you to say that BK is better. Like I said before, ask those going through it!!!!!

[post="167370"][/post]​

Yep we saved 12,000 jobs and three maintenance bases and we have the lowest UNVERIFIED outsource percentage. Oh wait, AA is goin to RIF 1,000 Mechanics in Kansas City on September 17th, and a group of analyst have been hired to oversee the shutdown of that facility.

In the end, you saved nothing more than the Pilot Lump Sum Pension option, and it still remains to be seen if that is even safe.

You are the one who is closed minded, and only believe what you are told instead of looking at the facts.

How many jobs and how many maintenance bases did you say we saved with our concessions? Tell us again, I want to get this one the record one more time before the sharpened axe falls.

I would submit that to date, you have not prevented anything, you just delayed it a while.

Will Jim Little give those TWA guys seniority with one of those "without further ratification" letters that the Federal Judge ruled the TWU Constitution allows?

 

[Rusty]

twuer, it is those like you who are the scum of our craft and class, the ones who cannot see past themselves. You say you gave up the most, does that mean you live in NY, LA or any high cost of living area, no How about bumped down to an OSM loosing license premiums??? Those in high cost living areas are the people who can afford to give up the least but, are the key to our sucess as a strong union. Your twu has tried to even take away what little extra they get for an extra day off. Keep spouting your lies and bullshit, see where it gets you. Do you actually believe that everyone cannot see through it ? The membership is not as stupid as you people take them for. One day you will see the power of this membership and it will not come from people like you!!!

 

[twuer]

Rusty , I wish you would learn to read. I didn't say I gave up the most and I didn't say I currently lived in a highcost area. DUH!! What I did say is that I HAVE lived in a highcost area, NY to be specific, and that I was for COLA. If that means I take a cut then I take a cut. Boy, you sure do know how to turn a conversation around so it fits your way of thinking. Amfa does that to you I'm afraid.

I will have to disagree with your comment about the folks in the high cost areas being the key to our success though. I choose NOT to pick and choose who I think is the better worker or stronger asset to this union. Every area has it's goods and not-so-goods, NOONE is better than anyone else. Your amfa way of thinking just blows my mind sometimes!!

Keep spouting your lies and bull****

My lies and bull**** Rusty??????? Why don't you prove that I am lying and BSing you and post some for me tough guy. Then go and bury your head back where it was before this amfa fight began!!! You do better there my friend!!!

 

[twuer]

Dave, Dave, Dave, We have all heard this rumor, you bring nothing new to the table, as usual. Started by an amfa supporter no less!! It's funny that you would post something like this and the folks it should be affecting know that it's not true. HMMMM?? You are a true crap-stirrer Dave!!!! You must be soooooo proud to be an honorary member of that club!! Let me guess, the VP???

 

[Hackman]

As expected!!!!

We still did the right thing!!!!! But you know it's funny that you never mention the positive side of amfa. All you can do is criticize something that appears to be working. Tell me, what has amfa done to protect the profession that they so openly preach???? Amfa's bark is much bigger then their bite. They make the promises only to get cards signed. Not to mention do it at times of uncertainty, taking advantage of a bad situation!! I have had many, many people tell me that they signed cards to get you off their backs and/or because they were disgruntled at the concessions. They have seen that we did what was necessary to save the majority of the brothers and sisters who form this union and that after just one year we are doing better than the most other majors. And no I am not speaking only of monetary aspects (you know like the exrta buck or two NWA mechanics are making.........for now!!!!! :huh: ) like you so commonly do! (Please feel free to comment on the state of those at UAL, including the retirees!!!, or the massive layoffs and base closures at NWA.)

Just curious Hackman and T4C, do you stand by your man Delle that bankruptcy is the better alternative????? He still feels that way you know!
The only reason you support a COLA is because it is not in effect. If it were you would change your tune.
Oh, and T4C, I think you have me mistaken for the self-centered, hypocritical, only-in-it-for-me amfa brethren!! Don't assume to know what I think or want brother. You know what happens when you assume!! I used to live in a high cost area and know first hand what these guys are going through. They get hit twice and hard!! Let me ask you, are you for or against COLA??
We will never again see what the twu gave away, at least as long as the twu remains in power.
So tell us oh mighty Hack. . . .what will amfa do for us if they were to get in at AA? How will amfa manage to get back the things we gave?? Solid answers please, no beating around the bush or in other words NO BS!!!! Just the facts sir!! They are trying to get in at AA, certainly they have a game plan. Oh, and I will wait for you to ask Daddy, oops I mean Delle, for an answer.

I will finish as I started.....we did the right thing. If anything good came out of this is that it has made us that more diligent as union members. To offer solutions instead of always looking for the handouts. And don't tell me you weren't one of them!!!!! We became laxidasical (sp) when things were going "good" and when "tragedy" strikes we appear as deer in the headlights, not sure what we should do next. Well boys, tragedy did hit and I feel certain that we did what was right for the majority of the members in this union. Unfortunately we did have some "casualties" but our numbers compared to the numbers under amfa's watch are night and day. That my brothers is the difference.

[post="167281"][/post]​

If you call giving the company everything they asked for then you are as F.U. as you seem. I have mentioned the positives of AMFA way too many times, and so has everyone else here that's for AMFA.....OVER AND OVER AGAIN. You twu zealots do not "get it", no matter how many times your told. You refuse to believe that AMFA is growing, and your twu is not. For undisputable proof, take SWA, which is the most profitable airline in HiSTORY!! The M@R booted the ibt for AMFA. No. 1 in pay and benefits for M@R at the time, and they launched the industrial union albatross in record time for AMFA. "Times of uncertainty"? Not at SWA. Another case in point is NWA. They booted the iam well before 911, at the height of airline profitability. Why? The iam refused to change, listen to its membership, and was unaccountable for all the mistakes and corruptness ingrained in that worthless excuse for a union. Sound familiar? Your "Times of Uncertainty" arguement is shot full of holes.

I'll tell you what AMFA won't do when they get in here at AA. They won't roll over like a $2 whore for this company. You blame AMFA for the layoffs at NWA and UAL. Yet you don't blame the twu for the same thing here at AA. We have the worst concessions in history, and layoffs were not suppose to happen right? The twu saved jobs remember? Now you know that no union can stop a company from laying off, but a union can fight to bring their members back. Then only one I've seen doing this is AMFA. I have not yet seen the twu file three Force Majeure cases. The iam started the outsourcing at UAL and at NWA, and you exspect AMFA to stop it in one contract. Its impossible and you know it. You continue to spew your lies, and it will be the twu's downfall.

The facts are that M@R at many more airlines will ALL BE AMFA in the future. There are reasons so many M@R at 8 airlines have made the change. AMFA is the largest union for the AMT (over 18000+). There is nothing you can do twuer to stop it from being the same way at AA. You might (notice I said might) have stopped this vote this time with fraud, but we are coming at you again. The twu has had 50 years to get it right for the AMT.... and they have FAILED!!!!

The twu is finished...............

Punks, Drunks, Cowards, Functional Illiterates, Felons, and Scabs. The twu finest.

NO VOTE? NO PEACE!!!!

 

[High Speed Steel]

Hey Hackman, You totally missed the point of twuer's post..! I too am curious as to the positive side of the amfa...? Please try and accomplish this task, with restraint of the nasty remarks.... If you will.....

---------------------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

 

[Bob Owens]

Our union leaders and the members did exactly what should have been done. I am so sick and tired of hearing these whiny, self-centered, amfa wannabes cry about how the "other guy" makes a buck or two more. WHAAAAAAA. It's just not fair!!! We make a decent wage (better than most!!), good working conditions, we have medical benefits and we still have our pensions!!!! And those things were "saved" for the majority of this membership!!! So our union has done exactly what a union is suppose to do.

So instead of getting together with all the other AFL-CIO affiliated unions and preventing the airlines from passing their financial mistakes onto the employees you feel that unions should just give the company everything they want?

Now the airlines know they can piss away money, manage irresponsibly and then when things go bad just take it from the employees

You forget how unions got the things we gave up in the first place.


You wannabes call it whatever you want, AFL-CIO union, industrial union........our union came through better than most given the situation and has done better in the longrun at preserving jobs and benefits compared to the other majors.

The fact is that we came out worse than most. Spin it however you like but the fact remains that we are among the lowest paid, the only ones that dont get holidays, the least vacation and the concessions that other airlines have yet to get we gave AA years ago. The TWU is not about preserving jobs, especially A&P jobs but getting more members. No other union has gone after and hurt the profession like the TWU has with the highest amount of outsourcing, transfer of work to other classifications, creation of sub-classes of unliscenced mechanics, B-scale etc.



Does that mean that we should be happy and thankful about the concessions.........no. But I can go to bed at night knowing that we did the right thing. Not only for ourselves but for the thousands of jobs (AND FAMILIES!!!!!) that were saved.

What about the thousands that were lost, and the ones that are eliminated everyday? You seem to forget about them.

I did not vote yes to save the company, I voted yes to save what I have invested, what supports my family, and what supports other families just like mine. Now I can hear Bob Owens chiming in and crying about the highcost areas and how they got shafted worse than anyone else. I support COLA wholeheartedly but is it my fault that those in these highcost areas chose to go into this profession?

Now thats a dumb statement. When I chose this profession Tulsa, the TWU and morons like you had little impact on wages across the industry. Wages and benifits were good, even for a place like NY. Back then workers were willing to fight for more. All you have to do is look at that thread you avoid about mechanics pay vs CPI. We had no idea that a weak union like the TWU would destroy the profession and expect everyone to live on a Tulsa based wage. Let me ask you something, if the company decides that the $30 they pay you is still too high compared to the $5/hr they could pay someone to do the same exact job in Mexico and offer their line mechanics parity with SWA should we say to you that you should have chosen a different profession? If you have to walk away from your home in Tulsa because when AA moves out of town nobody will buy it and you cant even afford a down payment on a home in NY or CA we would see who is crying.

The fact is that we did not choose the wrong profession, we were stuck with the wrong union.The work we do here on the line has to be done here on the line. If it was not Bob Owens doing it, it would be some other worker who faces the same things I do. Your stupid staement does not take this into account.

Is it my fault the cost of living is so much more higher in NY (and some other places) than it is in Tulsa? NO!!!!

Is it our fault that the company put their overhaul base in Tulsa? Again, if they decide to move overhaul to Mexico where they could pay $5/hour should you be willing to work for $5/hr? Should the line guys stop the operation to defend guys that have an attitude like you-the TWU "I got mine" attitude? You preach of unionism then come out with such self centered dribble like "Is it my fault the cost of living is higher?". What happened to "an injury to one,,,"? If the guys in other places are suffering, because the concessions were deliberately disproportional, shouldnt a true union man be concerned about this? But then again why am I asking you?

Once again, line mechanics will always be around, there will always, no matter what happens, be line mechanics in the USA, there are airlines out there that only have line maintenance with no overhaul but I have yet to see an airline that has overhaul but no line maintenance. The most potent weapon you have protecting you is your affiliation with the line because we can be much more effective at imposing economic pressure on the company than overhaul.

Let me ask you something, do you think Fleet service would honor a strike to keep overhaul in house if the company offered them their holidays back?

What the TWU has done, and morons like you have added to, is to cause resentment between line mechanics and overhaul. Sure you may be kicking back, patting yourself on the back for putting in concessions that hurt us more than you, but the fact is, as you have stated, for what you do, and where you are-you still get more than most. That makes you a target for more cuts. That makes the union ripe for busting.

The TWU made the right choice!! And you can look at amfa's track record to see that!!!

The TWU made a choice to impose concessions while they gave themselves raises. You must be one of those on the TWU payroll, or hoping to one day be to feel as you do. You most certainly have no regard for those of us who work in the places that actually generate the revenue that keeps you employed.

I believe we will soon have the oppurtunity to get back what we gave up. Will we get it back all at once, I doubt it, but I am not going to sit around and wait for it to come to me.

Yea sure we will get it back. Right after we get back the half hour lunch, fully company paid medical, push-backs and all the other concessions that the TWU has given up over the last twenty years.

I vow my endurance to my family and to my union brothers and sisters.

You vow your endurance?

I take it that by your union brothers and sisters the only ones that count are those in Tulsa.

A piss-poor attitude will get you nowhere.

Our attitude will likely improve once we get AMFA.

If you are looking for the pity-party look no further than amfa local 12. I hear they have "waller" parties on a weekly basis.
Let the bullets fly boys.........but be sure to whimper loud enough so we can hear you!!!!!!

Why dont you post a picture of yourself so we know which direction to send them?

 

[Rusty]

Rusty , I wish you would learn to read. I didn't say I gave up the most and I didn't say I currently lived in a highcost area. DUH!! What I did say is that I HAVE lived in a highcost area, NY to be specific, and that I was for COLA. If that means I take a cut then I take a cut. Boy, you sure do know how to turn a conversation around so it fits your way of thinking. Amfa does that to you I'm afraid.

I will have to disagree with your comment about the folks in the high cost areas being the key to our success though. I choose NOT to pick and choose who I think is the better worker or stronger asset to this union. Every area has it's goods and not-so-goods, NOONE is better than anyone else. Your amfa way of thinking just blows my mind sometimes!!

Keep spouting your lies and bull****

My lies and bull**** Rusty??????? Why don't you prove that I am lying and BSing you and post some for me tough guy. Then go and bury your head back where it was before this amfa fight began!!! You do better there my friend!!!

[post="167492"][/post]​

You are full of crap twuer, you said you "sacrificed for many", you did not sacrifice for many. If you sacrificed for many then you obviously gave up the most and are likely paying the company to have a job because the truth is AA still laid off over 3000 twu members and is now heavily engaged in attrition AA style.

Plus the twu is now allowing the MCI base to be closed, which is what the twu was saying why they advocated giving up concessions in the first place. "To save all three bases". In the end there is no difference, you did not save a freaking thing and gave up concessions without a even a whimper. From a union stand point, that would be giving them the cake and putting ice cream on top. Yet you still defend concessions. What will it take for you to admit that you were wrong??? Another base??? Three thousand more??? How about if they took away the union business money, now there is where the twu would begin crying foul!!!

The twu is nothing but a company union. What ever the company wants the twu is there fighting to get it for them. We have only had one contract for a very brief period of time that was not concessionary and that was because of the AMFA contract at NWA.

 

[Nightwatch]

So tell me Rusty, where did you read MCI is closing?

 

[Hackman]

Hey Hackman, You totally missed the point of twuer's post..! I too am curious as to the positive side of the amfa...? Please try and accomplish this task, with restraint of the nasty remarks.... If you will.....

---------------------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

[post="167617"][/post]​

No hss, I got twuers rant. The positives of AMFA have been listed before, debated, beaten, twisted, and re-hashed here and on other BB's. If you want the answer, compare and read both the twu and AMFA's constitution. They are night and day, and AMFA wins, hands down.

BTW, I will use foul language when I see fit. I ain't no church mouse, I'll sound off as needed.

Punks, Drunks, Cowards, Functional Illiterates, Felons, and Scabs. The twu's finest.


NO VOTE? NO PEACE!!!!

 

[Nightwatch]

BTW, I will use foul language when I see fit. I ain't no church mouse, I'll sound off as needed.

The use of foul language is proof of your ignorance. It's no wonder you embrace AMFA.

 

[High Speed Steel]

Hackman,

You still have not offored any real positive information to what "flips your switch" in regards to the amfa. I see that you procalim the positives come from the comparisons between the two constitutions, but was that not the same comparisions that were sold to the 47.1% of the decimated members that amfa was expected to represent...? How do you believe those members feel about the amfa dream now...? Educate me, tell what makes the prospect of losing my career, home, education for my children, retirement, and quality of life is worth the gamble...? I really wan't to here it from a true believer...!!!! :blink:

..................Good Luck.............

----------------------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

 

[j7915]

Quote from Bob Owens:

"Once again, line mechanics will always be around, there will always, no matter what happens, be line mechanics in the USA, there are airlines out there that only have line maintenance with no overhaul but I have yet to see an airline that has overhaul but no line maintenance. The most potent weapon you have protecting you is your affiliation with the line because we can be much more effective at imposing economic pressure on the company than overhaul." How many of AA's line mechs would still have a job if AA went to an only line maint concept? How many stations does SWA, JetBlue etc man with mechanics?

Bob finally shows his colors; it's all about the line and the hell with everyone else.

I would not count on "there will always be airline line maint". GE, Boeing, Lufthansa Tecknik and others can easely take on most if not all the work at the gate. Look at the foreign carriers in the US and US carriers overseas.

 

[Hackman]

The use of foul language is proof of your ignorance. It's no wonder you embrace AMFA.

[post="167774"][/post]​

Nighbitch, I will defer to the old addage......"that's the pot calling the kettle black".

Don't be a coward all your life.

Punks, Drunks, Cowards, Functional Illiterates, Felons, and Scabs. The twu's finest.

NO VOTE? NO PEACE!!!!

 

[Hackman]

Hackman,

You still have not offored any real positive information to what "flips your switch" in regards to the amfa. I see that you procalim the positives come from the comparisons between the two constitutions, but was that not the same comparisions that were sold to the 47.1% of the decimated members that amfa was expected to represent...? How do you believe those members feel about the amfa dream now...? Educate me, tell what makes the prospect of losing my career, home, education for my children, retirement, and quality of life is worth the gamble...? I really wan't to here it from a true believer...!!!! :blink:

..................Good Luck.............

----------------------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

[post="167782"][/post]​

Here's the problem hss,

I could talk to you until I'm blue about the merits of AMFA........and it would very likely accomplish nothing except waste my time. You are stuck in your Tulsa twu machine shop ways. Until you decide to open your eyes and stop blindly swallowing all the twu lies your told, there is nothing I can say or do for you. I worked in Tulsa for a number of years long ago, and when I say "twu blind", I speak from the experience of seeing it first hand.

Like I've said before, there are some people you just can't reach. You, in my humble opinion, do not want to seek the truth, or you would not be regurgitating the same twu lies over and over about AMFA.

Here is something for you to ponder hss: If AMFA is so detrimental to our careers, then WHY in the hell the did the AMT's at an airline like Southwest, who has led the industry for years in profitability, remove the ibt from power for AMFA??? Why did they not go with your beloved twu??? Why hasn't the twu started a card drive somewhere??? ANYWHERE???

You answer my questions with a legitimate reply, I will consider wasting an hour on you listing all the numerous advantages of AMFA as I see them.

Punks, Drunks, Cowards, Functional Illiterates, Felons, and Scabs. The twu's finest.

NO VOTE? NO PEACE!!!!