We are SCREWED

[Buck]

It is really not just about fares. The cost of doing business is also there. This is something that the customer fails to understand. I believe that airlines can trim their expenses. However it should not always be at the expense of labor. The customer must realize that it costs X dollars to fly the airplane in the first place. To fly it below that cost is bad business and just stupid. This is where deregulation has taken us. If you can really call it deregulation. Federal licensed pilots and mechanics. FAA rules and regulations. What would a truly deregulated model represent?

 

[AirplaneFan]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/22/2002 8:31:06 AM Busdrvr wrote:
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/22/2002 829 AM Hopeful wrote: [BR][BR]A cousin of mine who lives in FLA needed to go from MCO to JFK due to a death in the family and had no choice but to purchase a walk up ticket. He went directly to the airport and went to JetBlue first, thought the walk up fare for a RT ticket was rather high for any airline's prices. He went on down to the American ticket counter and paid $80 less for that same walk up fare. American is meeting and in some cases beating JetBlue'sfares on competing routes. I suppose all AA needs now is TV in every seat,[BR]----------------[BR][/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]Do people really think JBlu and SWA don't sell tickets on "Orbitz and Travelocity because they want to "save a little commission money"? Give me a break. Those airlines are doing EXACTLY what the "cartel" airlines did in the past, they take advantage of the ignorance of the consumer to jack the price up when ever able. They DO NOT want their fares to show up "racked and stacked" on a website behind AMR, UAL and DAL fares. They WANT the consumer with the 28.8 connection speed to go to ONE web site, theirs, and purchase a ticket because he "knows" it will be cheaper than on the mainline carriers, when in fact it likely ISN'T. PRICING POWER! I went back and forth with KC on this with reference to UAL's fares out of IAD to the Bay area. Forbes quoted some idiot from "Booz Allen" who claimed his company saved about $1000 per trip by booking SWA out of BWI. We both checked, UAL was CHEAPER for an unrestricted ticket, and the "fastest" SWA option took over an hour of extra travel time vs the NS UAL AB with a meal and a movie. [BR]
[P][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]You guys are TRULY AMAZING. On one hand you lament the fact that high fare business traveler aren't coming back, then you complain that customers aren't checking out the "BIG SIX" because they are really the low-fare carriers. But any quick check of Orbitz would show that the BIG SIX are high-fare carriers. Most people just get tired of the games being played with the fares. If AA really wants to be a low-fare carrier let them match JBLU prices on its LGB-JFK route at LAX.

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/22/2002 1104 AM Buck wrote:

This is where deregulation has taken us. If you can really call it deregulation. Federal licensed pilots and mechanics. FAA rules and regulations. What would a truly deregulated model represent?
----------------
[/blockquote]

It's laughable that people even bring up the "free market" and "de-regulation" when the current level of regulation is anything but. A truly "free market" would allow cartels, monopolies and predatory pricing. A true "free market" would have prob resulted in an industry with ONE airline owned by Standard Oil, and 50 year old airplanes built by boeing (of which todays United was actually a part of). the role of government is to prevent the "free market" from reaching ludicrous conclusions. unfortunately, we're well on out way to one. An industry (and not just this one) where NO company offers any real retirement or benefits and people must rely on the government for all services and support in the twilight years. after all, there as plenty of morons willing to sell out the profession and any hopes they have for the future in exchange for a funny looking uniform and a big watch.

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/22/2002 11:25:45 AM AirplaneFan wrote:

But any quick check of Orbitz would show that the BIG SIX are high-fare carriers. Most people just get tired of the games being played with the fares. If AA really wants to be a low-fare carrier let them match JBLU prices on its LGB-JFK route at LAX.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Again the FACT at the time UAL was being bashed by Booz Allen is UAL WAS CHEAPER! Spin it how you'd like, it doesn't change the facts. As for LAX vs LGB, why would AMR match fares. Have you ever thought that it just might be more expensive to operate into LAX? Maybe pax would rather pay a little more for the convienance of LAX. It's laughable when the Yahoo's on this board make the "seat mile cost" comparison between airlines. Why does JBLU charge $50 more for the JFK to DEN than The JFK-SLC flight (which is FARTHER)?


BTW, did you check orbitz? i recomend you do you homework before you post false info and look foolish. Try a flight leaving today (last minute) and returning the next day. As for JBlu, here are the "PAX friendly" rules for same day travel at $610.50 round trip, they seem much less honerous and vindictive to the pax than the major airlines (yeah right)

- This fare is non-refundable and name changes are not permitted.
- Reservations made with this fare may be changed or canceled prior to scheduled departure for a fee of $25.00 per person, plus any applicable difference in airfare. If a change or cancellation results in overpayment, any remaining balance will become a credit with JetBlue and may be applied toward future travel for one year.
- If a reservation made with this fare is not changed or canceled prior to scheduled departure, all money associated with this fare is forfeited.
- This fare is capacity controlled. Seats offered at this fare are limited and may not be available on all flights.
- All fares are subject to change until purchased.

 

[KCFlyer]

Busdriver - here are the "rules" on my wifes MCI-SAN flight:[BR][BR]Outbound - fully refundable, fully changeable.[BR]Return - non-refundable - any changes may incur an increase to the available fare. No change penalties. NO Saturday stay required. Unused amount fully credited towards future flight within the year. If for some reason she doesn't go the the absolute WORSE case is that we'd have a $200 credit to be used within the year. [BR][BR]Total cost of the trip (including taxes) - $523. Yep, Orbitz might have come up with a fare of $500 -but I'd be willing to bet you that it would have been laden with $100 fees for even thinking about making a change. [BR][BR]And yes, I let my mom fly Airtran. If I avoided airlines because they had ONE fatal accident, then I'd be avoiding a heckuva lot of airlines. Fact is, their one way walk up fare ended up SAVING her over $200 for the changes to her CO ticket. And they delivered her safely to DFW.[BR][BR]But I do find it kind of ironic that many airline employees lament the fact that people are flying "loss leader" fares, yet point out that they could fly another airline for less...at a loss leader fare. [BR][BR]Also, I had lunch with some LUV buddies over Thanksgiving. The topic of SNA came up, and how government mandated flight restrictions resulting in insufficient supply affected the pricing. One of us asked why they didn't charge more for full fare out of SNA, and was told (by one who is "in the know" on these things) that "it goes against our philosophy". So even when given a perfect opportunity to bend a community over and stick it to them airfare-wise, they just charge about the same amounts as they would on any other route. So much for the "jacking up their prices whenever they are able" arguments

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/22/2002 1:25:22 PM KCFlyer wrote:

And yes, I let my mom fly Airtran. If I avoided airlines because they had ONE fatal accident, then I'd be avoiding a heckuva lot of airlines. Fact is, their one way walk up fare ended up SAVING her over $200 for the changes to her CO ticket. And they delivered her safely to DFW.

----------------
[/blockquote]

Saying just ONE accident is a little bit of a BS statement. There will likely be at least ONE winner of weds powerball jackpot. There will also be ONE big winner in the local pocker game down the street. Which do you think you'd have the best chance of "winning"? It's funny how those of us in the "know" don't fly folks like them, while those of you who surf a few websites and "think" you are now informed, do. I try to go to the Dr that other Dr's go to, not the one the wacky herbalist down the street recommends.

 

[KCFlyer]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/22/2002 2:17:48 PM Busdrvr wrote:
[P][/P][BR]Saying just ONE accident is a little bit of a BS statement. There will likely be at least ONE winner of weds powerball jackpot. There will also be ONE big winner in the local pocker game down the street. Which do you think you'd have the best chance of "winning"? It's funny how those of us in the "know" don't fly folks like them, while those of you who surf a few websites and "think" you are now informed, do. I try to go to the Dr that other Dr's go to, not the one the wacky herbalist down the street recommends. [BR]
[P][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]No more of a BS statement than your comments about Paul Wellstone, JFK Jr., and Mel Carnahan, besides, I said one FATAL accident.[BR][BR]But you know, to a 76 year old widow who was trying to stay a couple more days with her sister with cancer, being jacked around with increases to the tune of nearly $500 to change a ticket on a "safe" (Funny how CO wasn't real "safe" when they had scab pilots) it's worth it to take a chance on the $300 walk up one way fare on Airtran. [/P]

 

[Tango-Bravo]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/21/2002 3:32:54 PM Hopeful wrote:

There will be no strikes whatsoever. Carty is tight with Dubya! Only way to strike is to go to the BK court and have the company abbrogate the union contracts. Only then can the union strike


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[/blockquote]


Since we have all been enlightened by the UA faithful that Dubya and the Republicans schemed and plotted to force UA into BK

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/22/2002 1:25:22 PM KCFlyer wrote:

Also, I had lunch with some LUV buddies over Thanksgiving. The topic of SNA came up, and how government mandated flight restrictions resulting in insufficient supply affected the pricing. One of us asked why they didn't charge more for full fare out of SNA, and was told (by one who is "in the know" on these things) that "it goes against our philosophy". So even when given a perfect opportunity to bend a community over and stick it to them airfare-wise, they just charge about the same amounts as they would on any other route. So much for the "jacking up their prices whenever they are able" arguments
----------------
[/blockquote]

Then I'm assuming that ALL of the LUV flights to SNA are operating at 100% load factors with mobs of stanby's and a few scalpers outside the terminal? If not, then they are charging what the market will bear. they are just blowing smoke up your ***. But lets pretend for a moment that they ARE selling out completely, and you HAVE to get there for a billion dollar business meeting or even worse a funeral. SORRY they sold out to a few hicks for $59. Is that the efficient use of a limited resource? I don't know about AMR, but UAL recently informed all of it's 1K pax that if they needed to get to a city UAL serves, if you give them 24 hours, they WILL sell you a ticket, PERIOD. No matter how oversold the flight may be. (and don't say that UAL will "screw the little guy" in the process, we had LESS involuntary denied boardings last month than SWA, despite a higher load factor). Maybe after a few Booz Allen moe's can't make a meeting across the country, they may see the value of being a FF with some status at an AMR, UAL, or DAL.

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/22/2002 3:39:26 PM KCFlyer wrote:

the tune of nearly $500 to change a ticket on a "safe" (Funny how CO wasn't real "safe" when they had scab pilots) it's worth it to take a chance on the $300 walk up one way fare on Airtran. [/P]
----------------
[/blockquote]

I don't remember saying I'd fly CAL either.... If you need my personal list of approved carriers, PM me and I'll get it to you.

 

[Bob Owens]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/22/2002 1:00:06 PM Busdrvr wrote:


It's laughable that people even bring up the "free market" and "de-regulation" when the current level of regulation is anything but. A truly "free market" would allow cartels, monopolies and predatory pricing. A true "free market" would have prob resulted in an industry with ONE airline owned by Standard Oil, and 50 year old airplanes built by boeing (of which todays United was actually a part of). the role of government is to prevent the "free market" from reaching ludicrous conclusions. unfortunately, we're well on out way to one. An industry (and not just this one) where NO company offers any real retirement or benefits and people must rely on the government for all services and support in the twilight years. after all, there as plenty of morons willing to sell out the profession and any hopes they have for the future in exchange for a funny looking uniform and a big watch.

----------------
[/blockquote]

You had better be careful with such talk when to talk to any of Dave Stewarts followers (Buck). Next thing you know they will brand you as a Socialist!

 

[BillLumbergh]

Again, lets get back onto the original topic.

BTW, RV4, its Bob Owens or Bob....I haven't seen and reference made by Bob to a different name or moniker.

 

[TomBascom]

[blockquote]
... I don't know about AMR, but UAL recently informed all of it's 1K pax that if they needed to get to a city UAL serves, if you give them 24 hours, they WILL sell you a ticket, PERIOD. No matter how oversold the flight may be. (and don't say that UAL will "screw the little guy" in the process, we had LESS involuntary denied boardings...
----------------
[/blockquote]

Aside from the PR value that's really a pretty trivial commitment. There can't be more than an amazingly tiny number of cases where that would ever apply. Almost every flight has at least a few seats left for sale (at astronomically high prices) right up to the bitter end anyway. Big deal. It's not like hordes of 1Ks are going to rush to the airport snapping up those last minute seats and mess up the IDB numbers.

 

[BillLumbergh]

Check your personal messages, RV4.

 

[Trip Confirmed]

That's only because UAL fares have hit the basement LATELY. Some fares are so low they're funny, but it's too late.

Southwest has an excellent safety record, and actually makes flying reasonably enjoyable. They also never decided to crucify the public with the hub system.

Passengers don't want to fly on a bankrupt airline.

Their first thought is where costs are being cut. Their second thought is maintenance.


Travel agents cabn't give away UAL seats these days.

Sad, but very true.