We all must bow down before the sky gods!
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Wretched Wrench
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ILS2MINIMUMS
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MCI transplant
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<_< ----- Hey! Let's put things in prospective here! When a pilot puts the aircraft into "auto-pilot", who is flying the aircraft?----- Answer, Maintenance!---- And how often do they do that???----- 😉
Your "little ditty" is wrong. Your perceptions of what APA was trying to achieve are exactly what AMR would have you believe. The subject and APA's side has been covered on this board.
Since you claim to be an engineer, perhaps you could analyze the costs of training and retraining for every move the company makes in moving aircraft types around the system. Even the company has finally figured it out that if 777 flying is moved around the country, many qualified pilots will follow it by commuting. Add up the costs of training and paid moves if every pilot did what you suggest.
Regarding your other points:
1. The 1997 contract was a paycut. It lagged the CPI. The RJ flying was another issue. It turns out that APA may have helped AA by limiting the RJ's.
2. I won't excuse the UAL guy, or his tact, but everybody seems to be an expert about airline piloting and conversation. It gets real old sometimes.
3. AA writes the check, APA puts the numbers on it. Classy behavior about the business card. Before your snitty decline, you might have found out that AA doesn't issue business cards to FO's. He didn't have an AA one to issue.
4. Reno had 450+ pilots. Carty and AMR just sat across the table and told APA to G.F. themselves over the most sensitive part of the contract. Regarding the extension and fine forgiveness, it was turned down because the hidden costs, (usually not stated in Jetwire), were greater than the "benefits".
Wretched Wrench
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I would be in favor of any employee who has been given the choice of enemployment or a transfer being given better passes.
But the pilots wanted more than that.
Heck, I have been bumped off of flights, both business and pleasure by pilots who were not qualified to bump me. Once, the pilot who was going to fly the plane I was going to fix bumped me out of a seat because he didn't want to fly the cockpit jumpseat. He got in a little trouble over that.
Another time a captain did not want a mechanic in the cockpit on a W, so a no-fix-no-fly airplane sat dead. Hours later, they rustled up a Learjet for me, but when I got there, my tools and the parts were somewhere else in the system. Took hours and hours for more parts to arrive, again by jet courier. I worked with borrowed tools and meters.
I don't have any idea how that captain's denial of a W cost the company, but it made me a bunch of good overtime. And, of course, my return trip was very circuitous, on a very low priority pass, so that just added to the company's expense. I expected to never see my tools again, but they made it back home.
My wife and I got bumped out of first class on a 707 from Hawaii to Fiji (a VERY long flight) by a captain and his wife at the last minute. We were first on the list for 24 hours, having failed to board the previous day's flight. They were way under us on the standby list. No, he was not deadheading. They were not Ts. They had been in Hawaii for days. They stayed at the same resort as us in Fiji for about the same time. Saw them every day. On the trip back, a first class seat was left empty. Right after climb out, the captain (a different one) reclined in it and slept until the plane tilted down into HNL.
End of rant on low priority passes for mechs.
But the pilots wanted more than that.
Heck, I have been bumped off of flights, both business and pleasure by pilots who were not qualified to bump me. Once, the pilot who was going to fly the plane I was going to fix bumped me out of a seat because he didn't want to fly the cockpit jumpseat. He got in a little trouble over that.
Another time a captain did not want a mechanic in the cockpit on a W, so a no-fix-no-fly airplane sat dead. Hours later, they rustled up a Learjet for me, but when I got there, my tools and the parts were somewhere else in the system. Took hours and hours for more parts to arrive, again by jet courier. I worked with borrowed tools and meters.
I don't have any idea how that captain's denial of a W cost the company, but it made me a bunch of good overtime. And, of course, my return trip was very circuitous, on a very low priority pass, so that just added to the company's expense. I expected to never see my tools again, but they made it back home.
My wife and I got bumped out of first class on a 707 from Hawaii to Fiji (a VERY long flight) by a captain and his wife at the last minute. We were first on the list for 24 hours, having failed to board the previous day's flight. They were way under us on the standby list. No, he was not deadheading. They were not Ts. They had been in Hawaii for days. They stayed at the same resort as us in Fiji for about the same time. Saw them every day. On the trip back, a first class seat was left empty. Right after climb out, the captain (a different one) reclined in it and slept until the plane tilted down into HNL.
End of rant on low priority passes for mechs.
Mr MACH85ER...
Thanks for your reply. I mentioned that I probably got some of the details wrong... it has been 7 or 8 years ago since all that happened, right??
So I will now do you the favor of replying, as you did for me...
So, as I asked before, what was the APA trying to acheive?
I'm not privy to all operation issues... and help me understand one phrase:
Are you saying that 777 bases have moved from city to city? Aren't the pilots who are qualified on Atlantic 777s also qualified on Pacific 777s... or is there a difference? I thought the only significant difference was the cabin configuration, but I'm not a pilot and maybe there's something else that makes a differentiation...
Frankly, it kind of sounds like the point you're making is:
(Speaking as an example only)... At some point in time, the 777 is based out of New York. Then, for what ever reason, the company decides to re-position it in Chicago. So then there is the cost associated with moving the pilots to Chicago. Is this the type of scenario you are eluding to?
If that's your point, ok, I get it.
But really, how often does an entire fleet leave one city and go to another?
And... this very thing has happened to lots of other people from time to time. It's been a while, I realize, but how about all the folks that had to move from Tulsa to Ft. Worth when AFW was opened? And of course, there have been other significant maintenance personnel changes based on "whatever" reason.
Well, the first contract - the one that was voted on and turned down (probably in late 1996) - was a pay increase, at least according to one senior test pilot. This was a guy that I personally knew, one that I worked with on a number of projects, one that I had a specific conversation about that contract specifically. Really - I'm not trying to be snooty, but rather, to define a point of credibility. Maybe he was lying to me, but that's what he said.
Well, now here's a point that I'd have to concede. I'm sure it does get old. Kind of like when you tell someome that you work for AA, and they say "I flew AA once and they lost my bags" or "I flew AA once and the flight was delayed" or whatever. I've started telling people, "I think you should fly UA (or NWA or DL or...). I hear that they never lose a bag..." Usually they get the point.
Nice response. If this is the case, why didn't he explain that to me? Or why did he, one Sunday when I was out of town on company business, get down on onw knee in front of my wife and tell her "I'm the man of your dreams"? Or why did he find it necessary to man-handle my 12-year-old daughter regularly, even after she asked him not to? Or why did he use church services as his personal platform to extol the evils of AA management (I'm not kidding - he would get into a conversation with the pastor during the service and then turn it into his personal propoganda session. Yes, DURING THE SERVICE). But you're right, calling me out with the sarcastic "classy behavior" comment. Clearly I was the "class-less" one.
450 or 200... who cares? That's not the point. The point is, the pilots didn't get their way, so through the illegal sick-out, they caused everyone (including passengers) to suffer. And they got off scot free.
Look, here's the deal: No individual person should be pre-judged based on sterotypes (pilots included). But remember this during your 80-hour month, 6-figure-annual income work schedule: Stereotypes don't exist without a reason.
Thanks for your reply. I mentioned that I probably got some of the details wrong... it has been 7 or 8 years ago since all that happened, right??
So I will now do you the favor of replying, as you did for me...
So, as I asked before, what was the APA trying to acheive?
I'm not privy to all operation issues... and help me understand one phrase:
Are you saying that 777 bases have moved from city to city? Aren't the pilots who are qualified on Atlantic 777s also qualified on Pacific 777s... or is there a difference? I thought the only significant difference was the cabin configuration, but I'm not a pilot and maybe there's something else that makes a differentiation...
Frankly, it kind of sounds like the point you're making is:
(Speaking as an example only)... At some point in time, the 777 is based out of New York. Then, for what ever reason, the company decides to re-position it in Chicago. So then there is the cost associated with moving the pilots to Chicago. Is this the type of scenario you are eluding to?
If that's your point, ok, I get it.
But really, how often does an entire fleet leave one city and go to another?
And... this very thing has happened to lots of other people from time to time. It's been a while, I realize, but how about all the folks that had to move from Tulsa to Ft. Worth when AFW was opened? And of course, there have been other significant maintenance personnel changes based on "whatever" reason.
Well, the first contract - the one that was voted on and turned down (probably in late 1996) - was a pay increase, at least according to one senior test pilot. This was a guy that I personally knew, one that I worked with on a number of projects, one that I had a specific conversation about that contract specifically. Really - I'm not trying to be snooty, but rather, to define a point of credibility. Maybe he was lying to me, but that's what he said.
Well, now here's a point that I'd have to concede. I'm sure it does get old. Kind of like when you tell someome that you work for AA, and they say "I flew AA once and they lost my bags" or "I flew AA once and the flight was delayed" or whatever. I've started telling people, "I think you should fly UA (or NWA or DL or...). I hear that they never lose a bag..." Usually they get the point.
Nice response. If this is the case, why didn't he explain that to me? Or why did he, one Sunday when I was out of town on company business, get down on onw knee in front of my wife and tell her "I'm the man of your dreams"? Or why did he find it necessary to man-handle my 12-year-old daughter regularly, even after she asked him not to? Or why did he use church services as his personal platform to extol the evils of AA management (I'm not kidding - he would get into a conversation with the pastor during the service and then turn it into his personal propoganda session. Yes, DURING THE SERVICE). But you're right, calling me out with the sarcastic "classy behavior" comment. Clearly I was the "class-less" one.
450 or 200... who cares? That's not the point. The point is, the pilots didn't get their way, so through the illegal sick-out, they caused everyone (including passengers) to suffer. And they got off scot free.
Look, here's the deal: No individual person should be pre-judged based on sterotypes (pilots included). But remember this during your 80-hour month, 6-figure-annual income work schedule: Stereotypes don't exist without a reason.
StraaightTaalk
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Well said, alfista.
But you won't get through to him, just as you won't get through to the majority of the ones who think of themselves as a superior hybrid "man-God."
There are good guys out there, but, unfortunately, it seems they are becoming the minority.
I flew recently with an FO who chose to engage me in a debate over the cabin jumpseat issue while I had to sit in the cockpit during one of their physiological breaks. His arguments were not based on contractual arguments as much as they were based on his innate sense of entitlement. When the Captain returned, and this FO continued his weak arguments, I could tell that the Captain was visibly embarassed. The Captain was one of the good guys, to be sure.
The workplace is not the place for such debate, even though such workplace debates do go on, but, in this case, it was especially inappropriate when my SOLE purpose for being in the cockpit was to comply with security directives put in place after 9/11. Even when I tried to end it, in order to get back to my work in the cabin, he continued. He could not seem to comprehend that I had valid thoughts, and opinions, too, which, unlike him, I could present in a cogent, coherent manner. I ended up leaving him in mid-sentence.
The man was nothing more than a big baby, like many pilots.
I blame their mothers.
But you won't get through to him, just as you won't get through to the majority of the ones who think of themselves as a superior hybrid "man-God."
There are good guys out there, but, unfortunately, it seems they are becoming the minority.
I flew recently with an FO who chose to engage me in a debate over the cabin jumpseat issue while I had to sit in the cockpit during one of their physiological breaks. His arguments were not based on contractual arguments as much as they were based on his innate sense of entitlement. When the Captain returned, and this FO continued his weak arguments, I could tell that the Captain was visibly embarassed. The Captain was one of the good guys, to be sure.
The workplace is not the place for such debate, even though such workplace debates do go on, but, in this case, it was especially inappropriate when my SOLE purpose for being in the cockpit was to comply with security directives put in place after 9/11. Even when I tried to end it, in order to get back to my work in the cabin, he continued. He could not seem to comprehend that I had valid thoughts, and opinions, too, which, unlike him, I could present in a cogent, coherent manner. I ended up leaving him in mid-sentence.
The man was nothing more than a big baby, like many pilots.
I blame their mothers.
StraaightTaalk
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Employees Jumping The Airport Security Line
More AA "Sky God" nonsense.
I completely understand the need for flight crews to "jump the line," in places where no employee line exists, as, clearly, if WE do not go, THEY do not go.
But there is such a thing as courtesy. It takes merely a second, and very little effort, to turn to the person behind you, and pleasantly say, "Excuse me," followed by, perhaps, "I'm really sorry. They don't provide us with a crew line, and we have to get through or our flight won't leave on time." Or something to that effect.
I recently witnessed an AA Captain at JFK rudely push ahead of a passenger, without even looking at him. Just pushed him out of the way at the head of the conveyor belt at the security checkpoint. I, also in uniform, was patiently waiting BEHIND the passenger, and noticed the Captain's brusque, "Get out of my way" attitude. Even the TSA official mentioned to the passenger, while motioning to me, "At least HE'S not pushing ahead of you." I responded by saying, "That's because I have manners." The Captain heard it...gave me a nasty look...would probably have flipped me off if nobody else were around...and went through the Xray. The very nice, patient passenger this Captain had pushed out of the way just looked at me, and all I could say is, "Sorry. We are not all like that."
As luck would have it, my gate was adjacent to the pilot's, towards the end of the very long concourse. He must have been paranoid that I was going to write him up, as he kept turning around to see if I was following him. He then went to his gate; walked past his gate; made some lazy circles in the concourse; and did everything in his power so that I could not see which flight he was getting on. I could not help seeing which flight he ultimately boarded as my gate was adjacent to his.
His paranoia indicated to me that he's probably been called in for his attitude before.
More AA "Sky God" nonsense.
I completely understand the need for flight crews to "jump the line," in places where no employee line exists, as, clearly, if WE do not go, THEY do not go.
But there is such a thing as courtesy. It takes merely a second, and very little effort, to turn to the person behind you, and pleasantly say, "Excuse me," followed by, perhaps, "I'm really sorry. They don't provide us with a crew line, and we have to get through or our flight won't leave on time." Or something to that effect.
I recently witnessed an AA Captain at JFK rudely push ahead of a passenger, without even looking at him. Just pushed him out of the way at the head of the conveyor belt at the security checkpoint. I, also in uniform, was patiently waiting BEHIND the passenger, and noticed the Captain's brusque, "Get out of my way" attitude. Even the TSA official mentioned to the passenger, while motioning to me, "At least HE'S not pushing ahead of you." I responded by saying, "That's because I have manners." The Captain heard it...gave me a nasty look...would probably have flipped me off if nobody else were around...and went through the Xray. The very nice, patient passenger this Captain had pushed out of the way just looked at me, and all I could say is, "Sorry. We are not all like that."
As luck would have it, my gate was adjacent to the pilot's, towards the end of the very long concourse. He must have been paranoid that I was going to write him up, as he kept turning around to see if I was following him. He then went to his gate; walked past his gate; made some lazy circles in the concourse; and did everything in his power so that I could not see which flight he was getting on. I could not help seeing which flight he ultimately boarded as my gate was adjacent to his.
His paranoia indicated to me that he's probably been called in for his attitude before.
Wretched Wrench
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With all the background checks we have been subjected to, airline employees should be let through security with no more than ID verification. They could just scan our airport ID card and match our face.
After all, we enter the secure areas that way every day.
After all, we enter the secure areas that way every day.
eolesen
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I agree that the checks are better than anything done for customers, but prior to 1988, employees were able to bypass screening altogether by flashing an airport ID.
Then an soon to be terminated (if not already) employee named David Burke used that privilege to bring a gun onboard a USAir flight, killing the pilots, his supervisor (who was also on the flight) and subsequently everyone else when it crashed...
And then there's the story of the unstable FDX pilot who attempted to kill off the crew of a DC10 with a hammer...
So... I don't particularly mind giving up my place in line to let a uniformed -working- crew member thru. But it pisses me off to no end when commuters and deadheads abuse that privilege.
Then an soon to be terminated (if not already) employee named David Burke used that privilege to bring a gun onboard a USAir flight, killing the pilots, his supervisor (who was also on the flight) and subsequently everyone else when it crashed...
And then there's the story of the unstable FDX pilot who attempted to kill off the crew of a DC10 with a hammer...
So... I don't particularly mind giving up my place in line to let a uniformed -working- crew member thru. But it pisses me off to no end when commuters and deadheads abuse that privilege.
Straaighttaalk,
I've read other peoples issues with pilots occupying a cabin jumpseat, so, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear your own position minus the derrogatory comments please.
If you've already done so, please accept my apology, and direct me to the link please.
Thanks. 🙂
I've read other peoples issues with pilots occupying a cabin jumpseat, so, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear your own position minus the derrogatory comments please.
If you've already done so, please accept my apology, and direct me to the link please.
Thanks. 🙂
Wretched Wrench
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David Burke was already terminated by PSA. He used his ID to get on a PSA flight without going through a detector. That would not happen today, as a terminated employee's ID is invalidated, and will be detected by a card swipe.
I don't know what can be done about an unstable pilot, since some pilots carry guns. Even an unarmed pilot can kill us all if he is flying the plane. As with Egyptair.
My concern is, employees can bypass bag check security at many airports in their daily work. We should be able to do so when traveling, too. The Registered Traveler thing should be extended free to employees and retirees, working or traveling, since we have already been thoroughly vetted. We are subject to much more stringent requirements than passengers. Many employees have lost their clearances for past offenses, non of which would keep them from boarding as a regular passenger or even as a Registered Traveler.
Thanks for the link showing mechanics are authorized to fly cockpit, I've been looking for that link.
© No person may admit any person to the flight deck unless there is a seat available for his use in the passenger compartment, except—
(1) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or authorized representative of the Administrator or National Transportation Safety Board who is checking or observing flight operations;
(2) An air traffic controller who is authorized by the Administrator to observe ATC procedures;
(3) A certificated airman employed by the certificate holder whose duties require an airman certificate;
Who's an Airmen?
http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/
Nor'Easta
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The FAA will allow flight attendants and mechanics to ride the flight deck jumpseat. It's up to the American Airlines Administrator to change the policy. If the flight attendants read their contract they will see the jumpseat agreement is between the AA Administrator and the APFA. I don't know what the pilots contract says, but I'm sure it's the same.
Other airlines allow their flight attendants to ride the flight deck jumpseat for travel/commute purposes.
Thanks to the APA, you will not be seeing AA metal at a PEK gate anytime soon :angry: !
