Us Airways Watch – 9/28/04

[OldGuyinPA]

The real question is why would you want them to stay. There has been such a lack of leadership for upteen years. Lack of vision...lack of clarity in mission....but lots of bosses. I'm afraid that we're just too late....

Sorry to be so negative.....
Oh yes and ....................


Respectfully.......etc.....

 

[diogenes]

But how do you force them to stay?

[post="185484"][/post]​

With a ball, and with a freakin' chain!

Sorry, R.U.D., I could not resist!

 

[ITRADE]

Yeah, I know. I really have to laugh sometimes at how totally pathetic the arguments are these days. "Its unfair!" "The law is unfair." The boys and girls were aware of the total repercussions of Chap. 11, and yet they chose to play with matches near the gasoline can. Now we'll see if they come away with 1st, 2d, 3d degree burns or wind up taking a dirt nap.

 

[Fatherknowsbest]

Itrade, the average U Employee is in a no win situation here. We are along for the ride and can't really stop any of this.I'm really glad you have something to laugh about.Laugh somewhere else..........just cuz you fly on us doesn't make it right for you to insult us. In many cases, our Unions aren't even solicting any input from us.

Doesn't matter what you type.....you never will be one of us. Be glad you are not in our shoes and cut us the break that the majority of us deserve.

 

[diogenes]

Pit bull I think youre way off here. The market is dictating! If you think otherwise, go back to buisness 101 !

[post="185449"][/post]​

Ahhh, the market - let's think about that a bit.

First, the market is not a force of nature, like gravity.

Second, it is not like a calculus formula, where you plug in the variables, crank the handle, and voila, predictable results!

It IS a good theory. In a neutral environment, the economic choices people freely make determines costs.

Alas, there is no neutrality. Companies spend major dinero (without any by-your-leave from the owners) in the political and legal process to gain advantage, or hamstring an opponent.

Amazingly, a lot of free-marketeers that avail themselves of the political process go simply rabid when joe citizen tries to get into the game.

Let citizens form together as, say as a RiverWatch group, to keep local waters clean enough to swim and fish in. Watch corporations file SLAPP lawsuits to stop the group ( I guess Bush's tort reform doesn't reform corporate lawyers :angry: ).

Watch the Ken Lays of the world enrich themselves at shareholder expense. Watch the owners, like CALPERS, try to make management and the board accountable. Watch management and the board ignore CALPER's vote of no confidence, saying they will take the results "under advisement."

Watch Haliburton, AS WE SPEAK, trade with Iran (which is illegal) thru a sham subsidiary. Accountability, anyone?

While a free market is a nice idea, as it is currently described, it does not do justice to accountability. Free marketeers say the market will eventually correct a bad deal, and in the meanwhile caveat emptor. The problem is, while we're waiting for 'eventually' to arrive, people can (with apologies to Keynes) die, environment can be irrepairably damaged, and life savings can vanish.

Moreover, for the ideal free market to work, transactions must be transparent. It is plain to see from the Enron's and Arthur Andersen's of the world that the year of jubilee is not yet upon us.

In the real world, corporations are playing with some sharp elbows to maximize, at any and all costs, profits.

Having read about the 1930's, I have no desire to experience them, and am rooting for joe citizen to throw an elbow or two for himself.

 

[ClueByFour]

Yeah, I know. I really have to laugh sometimes at how totally pathetic the arguments are these days. "Its unfair!" "The law is unfair." The boys and girls were aware of the total repercussions of Chap. 11, and yet they chose to play with matches near the gasoline can. Now we'll see if they come away with 1st, 2d, 3d degree burns or wind up taking a dirt nap.

[post="185626"][/post]​

For everyone but the pilots, there is no material difference between having the gun held to your head (Chapter 11) and making the assasin pull the trigger (via the judge). The proposals to the CWA and AFA were equally as devestating before Chapter 11 (maybe even moreso for the CWA).

I guess the dirt nap analogy only really applies if you think that the pre-Chapter 11 terms were not, in and of themselves, dirt naps. For several work groups, it certainly looked that way. At least the unions now hold the ultimate trump card (self-help). It's not a bad strategy really, if you figure you are done for in any case.

Finally, the bankruptcy laws in this country are a relativel farce--they screw creditors, suppliers, and (perhaps the biggest foul) labor. I'm of the personal opinion that when Congress overhauled 1113 and 1114 that they did not go far enough to protect the rights of workers. In the specific case of US, it's clearly evident to any reasonable individual that the lack of management acumen bears much more blame for the current situation than labor or it's associated costs. As I mentioned in another thread, companies with real leadership have gotten employees to take the proverbial bath in the past and used that investment to forge a winning strategy--US clearly muffed the punt during/after the first filing, and only a fool would accept sub-market wages and conditions to give (largely) the same group of blundering executives a second bite at the apple.

 

[ktflyhome]

DELETED BY MODERATOR

 

[diogenes]

You know, Cx4, I believe most of the 'give management some more' crowd clearly understands what you are saying.

But they hope their rhetoric can fool enough people enough of the time to advance their agenda.

They sure seem to get pi$$ed when you call them on it, though.

Nice post.

 

[fatburger]

Itrade.............gosh darn it.......get back on the sideline, you are not a player in this game. Leave the fight to the big dogs!

-fatburger-

 

[diogenes]

Ahhh, I don't mind 'Trade.

We definitely have some differences of opinion, and we both wouldn't have it any other way.

Besides, he needs an uppity prole around to keep him on his toes!

 

[diogenes]

"U went into BK just to kill labor, throw out contracts and pensions. They knew that labor would be disadvantaged, and I call that cheating, unfair, and there needs to be legislative reform for the purpose of "fairness" to all parties."

I love this. Weren't the unions the ones that were saying, we'll take our chances in court???

OOPS.

[post="185429"][/post]​

'Trade,

If the company's requested concessions WILL put me in the poorhouse, and the judge's ruling MAY put me in the poorhouse, that's an easy call to make, isn't it?

And, if the judge grants the company's motion (likely), it's still the poorhouse, no?

And, if self-help rears its ugly head-----the poorhouse! I know, I know!


See the problem here? No options.

 

[PITbull]

Management did not go to BK to "kill" the unions. Why? Because in the process, they also "kill" the shareholders, whom they have a fiducery duty to protect.

Management went to BK because they don't have enough cash to pay the bills. Period.

And for the record, ITRADE has a point... If the unions wanted to deal, they could have... I don't blame the unions for not trusting this management team, but the unions could have capitulated one more time. Of course, that would have only delayed BK, not avoided it, in my opinion.

[post="185441"][/post]​

Fungy2,
Capitulated one more time????

Earth to F2......Been there; done that. Not here to make YOU feel good.

We will not "capitulate to impoverish ourselves. This company could care less about the stock holders. They're the last on anyones list, even in BK.

"You risk; you lose".

BTW: Employees are stockholders too. When all was said and done...Bk #1, I lost over $15,000 in my 401K besides my wage cut.

And in BK #2, the employees owned 30% of the stock...my equity share was worth $135....3 tanks of gas. Sold 3 weeks before BK.

 

[PITbull]

You have the same option. Go back to school and get that "entry level" position. You'll probably be happier in the long run. Someone in your family saw the light

[post="185479"][/post]​

Borescope,

You missed the point on that, and I won't bother to explain...

The light has shine on my house for a very long time...I have enough degrees to share one with you.

Organized labor has the privilege of a vote....And I'm not leaving until I vote.

 

[PITbull]

Clue,

I alway did want to marry you even way back when...

Great post.

For someone on the "outside', you are really "inside" of us.

If you ever come my way...I'd like to buy you a case of beer

 

[USFlyer]

Yeah, I know. I really have to laugh sometimes at how totally pathetic the arguments are these days. "Its unfair!" "The law is unfair." The boys and girls were aware of the total repercussions of Chap. 11, and yet they chose to play with matches near the gasoline can. Now we'll see if they come away with 1st, 2d, 3d degree burns or wind up taking a dirt nap.

[post="185626"][/post]​

ITRADE, best post I've seen in ages. People chose not to listen to sound advice and now are about to get screwed in a big way. Too bad, people had options and chose to shut the door to them.