US Airways ALPA PHL Council 41 Update

[EyeInTheSky]

You West pilots need to get over yourselves. You KNOW that this award is unfair, did not follow ALPA merger policy, and should be thrown out. No pilot East or West should want ot take jobs or cause any windfalls. Lastly, no pilot with integrity should want such an "award" knowing that so many ALPA rules and regulations were not followed. You guys know this yet you could care less. That attitude will come back to bite you in the craw one way or another.

Later,
Eye

 

[hp_fa]

Uh, my dear. Both parties were told that. Get your facts straight, please.

As I recall reading one party was insisting on something that resembled DOH and the arbitrator implied that was not going to happen. Phrase that however you want to, the intent was clear as was whom he was addressing.

 

[Thankyou]

Should the list be imposed, the best thing that could happen would be for the FOs to infiltrate. I can see it already, the capt calls for the gear, the Fo finds something else to do and the capt causes turbulence in their attempt to raise gear while flying. The FO then makes a PA to that effect and writes up the A/C for severe turbulence. Should be real fun.

You will not win. Good luck at your next job.

---------------------------------------------------------------You guys just don't get it do you. Binding arbitration! Say it three times fast maybe it will sink in! We will win!

 

[AWA320]

You West pilots need to get over yourselves. You KNOW that this award is unfair, did not follow ALPA merger policy, and should be thrown out. No pilot East or West should want ot take jobs or cause any windfalls. Lastly, no pilot with integrity should want such an "award" knowing that so many ALPA rules and regulations were not followed. You guys know this yet you could care less. That attitude will come back to bite you in the craw one way or another.

Later,
Eye

Eye,
go back and read the award FIRST. No one is taking any jobs in fact most of us on the west lost relative position. Your I want it all and I want you to pay for it is a weak arguement! It was weak to the panel and it is still weak. ALPA policy was followed to the letter, there is simply no windfall except for the top 517 and guess who got those positions?!?!?!

This merger is already biting me because I have to share airspace with people as selfish as you!!!

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Lets repeat this for the one hundredth time. Everyone read with me out loud:

ALPA merger policy does not use DOH as a criterion for seniority integration. SAVVY?

If one day it changes to include DOH, I am sure that will be used in subsequent seniority integration decisions. This is absolutley insane to keep discussing DOH as if it was even remotely possible to use. Just because the east wished DOH were a part of ALPA merger policy does not qualify as a valid argument in support of its use.

As I am totally for DOH, I have been studying different scenarios for years. What I suggest is the following format:

1. Every active Pilot will be placed on an active seniority
list by DOH.

2. If you are a Captain: East, West, International,
Domestic, it doesn't matter. You stay a Captain on the
Aircraft you are flying, by DOH.

3. If you are a First Officer: East, West, International,
Domestic, it doesn't matter. You stay a First Officer
on the Aircraft you are flying, by DOH.

4. Every furloughed Captain will be placed on a furloughed
Captain seniority list by DOH. As Captain's positions
become available, Active, Furloughed, East, West,
International, Domestic, it doesn't matter. The Captain
with the most seniority by (DOH) is awarded the
position.

5. Every furloughed First Officer will be placed on a
furloughed First Officer seniority list by DOH. As
First Officer positions become available, Active,
Furloughed, East, West, International, Domestic, it
doesn't matter. The First Officer with the most
seniority by (DOH) is awarded the position.

6. If no Captain accepts the position, then it goes to the
First Officer with the most seniority by DOH.

I know there will be some that find flaws in this scenario, but I think it is the fairest way to integrate the two Pilot Groups. I hope I answered your question Art at Isp. For the rest of you, you can now let the daggers fly!

 

[Bud8EE]

Were you or are you furloughed yes or no??

No, however being hired at Hughes Air West in 1977, I've seen a merger or two and flew with a few people who have seen a merger or two. I've seen every argument and I've witnessed the bad blood created by ALPA perpetuating an environment of pilot groups competing for what is left of the union work by real pilots who came before my time, and no longer under the safety net that regulation provided. I feel sad to be a member of ALPA council 1, while David Behncke is spinning in his grave.

After 29 years of deregulation this union continues to self-destruct and something as simple as a coherent merger policy and doesn't leave it to legal merger counsel and the subjective whim of an individual and the politics of "neutrals" remains elusive. ALPA had it right from 86-91 when DOH was established as a guideline, and the charge was ironically led by a USAir pilot.

At one point, I thought flying people around was the greatest thing in the world. When my oldest got hired at US Airways in 1999 at 25, I was very happy for him even though I discussed the ups and downs of the industry when I taught him to fly. When I discussed the pitfalls of the profession, the cynic in me told him to remember that pilots are their own worst enemy. I never realized how quickly that belief would become so self-evident. 2001 has just accelerated the selfish, greedy, anti-union mentality that has pervaded the profession since my time and accelerated the "mine" and "yours" mentality that has existed and the profession no longer falls under the shadow of the real union men from early on and the protective umbrella of a regulated industry.

Fortunately he was hired at FEDEX and my advice to my two sons at the regional level is to put all their effort into FEDEX, UPS, and ABX because there is no hope for pax airline jobs improving and with ALPA at the helm, the pax airlines jobs will in 20 years be a shadow of the jobs they are today just as they are today compared to 25 years ago. I just pray it works out for them and the current dysfunction at the ALPA carriers doesn't invade and drag down the freight jobs or at least until they get theirs because the only advice I can think to give them now is their is "mine" and "yours", you guys make sure you get yours.

 

[nostradamus]

AWA320 quote

"Ratio was and is the only fair way to merge two groups of such different age backgrounds."


AWA320's Favorite bookclick here

 

[AWA320]

No, however being hired at Hughes Air West in 1977, I've seen a merger or two and flew with a few people who have seen a merger or two. I've seen every argument and I've witnessed the bad blood created by ALPA perpetuating an environment of pilot groups competing for what is left of the union work by real pilots who came before my time, and no longer under the safety net that regulation provided. I feel sad to be a member of ALPA council 1, while David Behncke is spinning in his grave.

After 29 years of deregulation this union continues to self-destruct and something as simple as a coherent merger policy and doesn't leave it to legal merger counsel and the subjective whim of an individual and the politics of "neutrals" remains elusive. ALPA had it right from 86-91 when DOH was established as a guideline, and the charge was ironically led by a USAir pilot.

At one point, I thought flying people around was the greatest thing in the world. When my oldest got hired at US Airways in 1999 at 25, I was very happy for him even though I discussed the ups and downs of the industry when I taught him to fly. When I discussed the pitfalls of the profession, the cynic in me told him to remember that pilots are their own worst enemy. I never realized how quickly that belief would become so self-evident. 2001 has just accelerated the selfish, greedy, anti-union mentality that has pervaded the profession since my time and accelerated the "mine" and "yours" mentality that has existed and the profession no longer falls under the shadow of the real union men from early on and the protective umbrella of a regulated industry.

Fortunately he was hired at FEDEX and my advice to my two sons at the regional level is to put all their effort into FEDEX, UPS, and ABX because there is no hope for pax airline jobs improving and with ALPA at the helm, the pax airlines jobs will in 20 years be a shadow of the jobs they are today just as they are today compared to 25 years ago. I just pray it works out for them and the current dysfunction at the ALPA carriers doesn't invade and drag down the freight jobs or at least until they get theirs because the only advice I can think to give them now is their is "mine" and "yours", you guys make sure you get yours.

Isn't ALPA at the helm of Fed EX?? Sounds as if you have had a long and very interesting career in this crazy business. I would love to sit with you and hear the stories of your airwest days, maybe one day. I am glad my oldest is not interested in this career...

 

[TechBoy]

and the protective umbrella of a regulated industry.

Those days are long gone and will never return. They will not return because the high wages of the regulated era were paid on the backs of consumers. Consumers who did not have the benefit of competition. So now wages have to respond to market forces, just like in every other industry. I'm not saying that it is fun, but it is the way it works in the real world.

 

[A320Driver]

You West pilots need to get over yourselves. You KNOW that this award is unfair, did not follow ALPA merger policy, and should be thrown out. No pilot East or West should want ot take jobs or cause any windfalls. Lastly, no pilot with integrity should want such an "award" knowing that so many ALPA rules and regulations were not followed. You guys know this yet you could care less. That attitude will come back to bite you in the craw one way or another.

Later,
Eye

I, for one do not KNOW that this award is unfair. Unfair would be to staple the East guys to the bottom of the list. Of course, we knew that wouldn't fly in arbitration, so we never considered that as a starting point. The West pilots view DOH as a windfall for the East. I understand we will never agree on what is fair. I happen to think the award was fair (of course I would, I won the lottery, right?) It should be noted that our proposal was not used either. The arbitrator disagreed with our proposal as well. ("This, however, does not justify ratios beginning at the top of the list as America West proposes....")(pg 26 Opinion and Award) If it is shown that ALPA rules and regulations were not followed, then let the powers that be overturn or set aside the "award". I don't know that the rules and regulations weren't followed and couldn't care more. I think your attitude is coming back to "bite you in the craw". But what do you care? None of you guys seem to need this job anyway.
There are aspects of every merger that people don't like. For the East (F/Os primarily) it is the lost attrition. For the West (F/Os primarily), our stagnation due to the merger has cost our guys upgrades as well. Face it, mergers, in general are bad for F/Os. Nobody wants their airline to grow through M&A.
I didn't anticipate this much outcry from the East, though. When your MEC came out to Phoenix to meet with our MEC, they would pat our guys on the back and say "Don't worry about it guys. One day you show up for work and there's a new seniority list on the wall. You find your new number and move on." Yeah right.
Oh well. I don't expect to change anyone's mind on this. It's akin to a democrat trying to convert a republican. Or vice versa.
Glass half full or glass half empty. Your choice.

"We also understand that our choices will place pilots with disparate lengths of service next to each other. That, however is a result of the balancing of the equities inherent in ALPA merger policy, a balance that neither the top to bottom active pilot ratio as advanced by America West or a top to bottom length of service integration as proposed by US Airways achieves. We also understand that those pilots on furlough are not there through choice or fault and that, as a result of their placement, they will not advance as quickly as they would like. But when one looks at the length of many of those furloughs as well as the end of new hirings occasioned by the continuing difficulties US Airways had in resolving its structural problems and finding its way out of bankruptcy, their expectations of advancement could not have been intense, the opposite had to be true."

George Nicolau, Opinion and Award, Pg 29-30

Don't blame me. I didn't make the policy.

 

[UAL_TECH]

Get over it!
Your Lucky to have a JOB...
They know it, maybe you all should know it as well...

B) UT

 

[nostradamus]

Those days are long gone and will never return. They will not return because the high wages of the regulated era were paid on the backs of consumers. Consumers who did not have the benefit of competition. So now wages have to respond to market forces, just like in every other industry. I'm not saying that it is fun, but it is the way it works in the real world.

Now the low ticket prices are paid for on the backs of the airline employees. Sit there and wonder why it is not what it used to be. Transferring all the "high wages" to a few select management types changed this industry, this is the way it really works in the real world, which you were insulated from by being raised privileged.

 

[nostradamus]

Those days are long gone and will never return. They will not return because the high wages of the regulated era were paid on the backs of consumers. Consumers who did not have the benefit of competition. So now wages have to respond to market forces, just like in every other industry. I'm not saying that it is fun, but it is the way it works in the real world.

More wisdom quotes from TechBoy

"I personally happen to know quite a few decent human beings who accidentally (and deliberately) spew profanity occasionally. I'd take them any day over a selfrighteous holy roller like you."

"I would think that the one thing that you would learn from being on these boards for the past few years is that the US pilots will whine and threaten the end of the world over and over, but when it comes time to save their own butt and paycheck, they will give in. I expect the same thing to happen here. Do you really think that guys with less than 5 years until retirement with a gutted pension are going to "burn the place down?"

"Besides, the East pilots have shown that they have no backbone many times over. With over half of them slated to retire in the next 5 years, I'll bet that the older ones will sell out their younger "brothers" for a 15% raise. They always have in the past . . ."
A priveledged Ass, famous quotes


Techboy has another famous quote below, he dedicated this to what he thought about flight attendants.


"Um, no. I'm just a customer who flies a lot and is interested in the industry. I would never choose to work in the airline industry given that it is never consistently profitable, which means that there will always be issues with employee costs. I'll stick with the tech world, where very highly skilled people are paid very highly"

 

[TechBoy]

Thanks for collecting my opus on this board. I didn't realize that I had so many pearls of wisdom.

I will point out that, whether you agree with my opinions or not, that I am fairly consistent and my analysis is usually on target.

 

[nostradamus]

Thanks for collecting my opus on this board. I didn't realize that I had so many pearls of wisdom.

I will point out that, whether you agree with my opinions or not, that I am fairly consistent and my analysis is usually on target.

You should be a spin doctor, great rebuttal!