US Airways & AFA Reach Tentative Agreement

[diamondcutter]

One thing I really wish they would come up with something that more accurately reflected what the average F/A earns then the hourly wage. Average person sees $40 to $50 per hour and thinks F/A's make a ton of money which is of course untrue. in my view, if the average person knew what a day in the life of a F/A looked like the flying public might not be so openly hostile towards flight attendants

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.....you are spot on. ...on a side note ....we can agree

 

[BoeingBoy]

I think it's 41.50 per hour hr. if u fly CSD u get 6.50 on top of that and int. pay

I may have misread your earlier post and thought you were talking about the UA tentative. That has rates just over $50 hour on the third/fourth anniversary of ratification. Were you talking about the US FA tentative? I didn't know it was available publicly.

Jim

 

[SparrowHawk]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.....you are spot on. ...on a side note ....we can agree

I just know from my own experience. I had the "Tood" until I made Chairman's and learned what the real story was.

 

[FlyUs]

United Pay numbers for the T/A are : (domestic numbers)

current top out is 39.75
T/A offers 10% at DOS to a top out of 43.73
after that they are offering 3 yearly increases of 2%, 2.5% and 2.5%
for a top out at the end of 46.86.
if you do the numbers for international pay it comes out just over 50.00 per hour at the end.

Are you sure about that? My friend, who works for UA, sent me a copy of their t/a. I read it as 50.00 for domestic. CAL is up over 53.00 an hour domestically

 

[CallawayGolf]

One thing I really wish they would come up with something that more accurately reflected what the average F/A earns then the hourly wage. Average person sees $40 to $50 per hour and thinks F/A's make a ton of money which is of course untrue. in my view, if the average person knew what a day in the life of a F/A looked like the flying public might not be so openly hostile towards flight attendants

I think the "average" person is smart enough to know that flight attendants do not make a ton of money. All you have to do is Google the question and you can get a pretty good idea of what a new or a seasoned FA would likely make in the industry. There are pros and cons to any industry or profession, but I think the public perception is that being an FA would have substantial perquisites compared to say being an AP clerk or a cashier at Home Depot, especially if you want FT benefits.

The average FT worker in America puts in 40 hours per week for 50 weeks a year to get benefits such as medical, dental and a 401k plan. They have to drive back and forth to work five days a week in order to earn a living. If we add an hour a day to account for the commute, that works out to 2,250 hours per year with roughly 116 days off for weekends, holidays, and vacation. That means that about 70% of their days in a year are spent at work to earn their $30-40k year in a career that doesn't require a college degree.

Now compare that to the same basic wages for a FA who has gained enough seniority to earn about that same level of income. They are paid for about 75 hours per month which equals a gross pay of about $36,000 at $40/hr. (75 * 12 * 40). The 75 hours per month works out to 900 hours per year. Of course not of their time at work is compensated at that rate, so let's add a factor of 50% to the 75 hours for uncompensated time to represent that time that they are "on-duty" plus their commute time. That works out to 1,350 hours per year or just 60% of the hours worked by a land-based FT worker. If the FA puts in five days a week or so, then they are "on-duty" for less than 5 hours per day or perhaps they are getting more than two days off per week. Either way, that works out to a 40% increase in time away from work or roughly 160-180 days per year or more where the FA is not on duty. That is probably where the average person will develop deaf ears about how miserable it is to work as an FA. I can hear it now, "Gee you only work about half of the days a year and get to travel to various cities and have the company pay for your hotel room and such while I'm stuck at a desk 8 hours a day / five days a week and all I get is a paycheck with very little chance to explore the great cities of this nation/world. So why are you complaining exactly?"

I'm glad that the AFA finally got past waiting for the east pilots to accept the arbitrated list and have come to a TA with Management, but hour for hour or dollar for dollar there are far worse jobs in that pay scale that a person could have to do in order to earn a living. Don't think so? Then why are there so many people trying to break into a career as an FA after all this time? Perhaps those on the outside are able to see the benefits a little more clearly than those on the inside.

 

[etops1]

Ok guys ..Finally we have a Tentative Agreement for a combined contract at USAirways .It's been a long time coming . Now please don't start telling people how to vote. Let FA's make their own decisions ..What may work for you may not work for the other individual. But one thing is for sure ..Read this TA carefully and VOTE!! If you don't vote you lose your voice and your right to ####. Excercise your right to Vote!! I urge the new hires to Read this TA carefully as this may change your careers that you are beginning . Good luck to US all.

 

[PHXLOST]

Are you sure about that? My friend, who works for UA, sent me a copy of their t/a. I read it as 50.00 for domestic. CAL is up over 53.00 an hour domestically

After the "Street" article I went straight to the source ( United AFA website ).
The numbers all match up...
here is a link to their contract and T/A

http://www.unitedafa.org/contract/default.aspx

you can always make things sound good if you add international, lead, lodo, etc. but 43.73 is what the
TA offer is at the start.

 

[SparrowHawk]

I think the "average" person is smart enough to know that flight attendants do not make a ton of money. All you have to do is Google the question and you can get a pretty good idea of what a new or a seasoned FA would likely make in the industry. There are pros and cons to any industry or profession, but I think the public perception is that being an FA would have substantial perquisites compared to say being an AP clerk or a cashier at Home Depot, especially if you want FT benefits.

The average FT worker in America puts in 40 hours per week for 50 weeks a year to get benefits such as medical, dental and a 401k plan. They have to drive back and forth to work five days a week in order to earn a living. If we add an hour a day to account for the commute, that works out to 2,250 hours per year with roughly 116 days off for weekends, holidays, and vacation. That means that about 70% of their days in a year are spent at work to earn their $30-40k year in a career that doesn't require a college degree.

Now compare that to the same basic wages for a FA who has gained enough seniority to earn about that same level of income. They are paid for about 75 hours per month which equals a gross pay of about $36,000 at $40/hr. (75 * 12 * 40). The 75 hours per month works out to 900 hours per year. Of course not of their time at work is compensated at that rate, so let's add a factor of 50% to the 75 hours for uncompensated time to represent that time that they are "on-duty" plus their commute time. That works out to 1,350 hours per year or just 60% of the hours worked by a land-based FT worker. If the FA puts in five days a week or so, then they are "on-duty" for less than 5 hours per day or perhaps they are getting more than two days off per week. Either way, that works out to a 40% increase in time away from work or roughly 160-180 days per year or more where the FA is not on duty. That is probably where the average person will develop deaf ears about how miserable it is to work as an FA. I can hear it now, "Gee you only work about half of the days a year and get to travel to various cities and have the company pay for your hotel room and such while I'm stuck at a desk 8 hours a day / five days a week and all I get is a paycheck with very little chance to explore the great cities of this nation/world. So why are you complaining exactly?"

I'm glad that the AFA finally got past waiting for the east pilots to accept the arbitrated list and have come to a TA with Management, but hour for hour or dollar for dollar there are far worse jobs in that pay scale that a person could have to do in order to earn a living. Don't think so? Then why are there so many people trying to break into a career as an FA after all this time? Perhaps those on the outside are able to see the benefits a little more clearly than those on the inside.

All I'm saying to you is stand by for INCOMING. Hope you have your flak jacket on. I'm not responding as I don't fly the line, but as an interested customer I know you're simplistic figures are pure bull feces. I'll leave it to those who do the job to educate you as they have me. Never forget chatting with a F/A who was on her 14th hour and had booked 6 hours of flight pay. So take $250 and divide by 14 = $17.87 an hour.

So have fun fielding the bombs headed your way. OK, F/A's show him the errors of his ways

 

[FlyUs]

Off topic but can anyone tell me how to use the ignore feature on this website?

 

[CallawayGolf]

All I'm saying to you is stand by for INCOMING. Hope you have your flak jacket on. I'm not responding as I don't fly the line, but as an interested customer I know you're simplistic figures are pure bull feces. I'll leave it to those who do the job to educate you as they have me. Never forget chatting with a F/A who was on her 14th hour and had booked 6 hours of flight pay. So take $250 and divide by 14 = $17.87 an hour.

So have fun fielding the bombs headed your way. OK, F/A's show him the errors of his ways

Is this an anomaly or par for the course? Math is math no matter how a person may feel about it. For example, a regular FT position that pays $17.87/hour works out to $37,169/year based on 40-hour WW and 52 weeks a year (some of that pay coming in the form of holidays and vacations). So, that sounds like a pretty descent job considering the median household (single earner) income in America according to the US Census bureau is about $30-50K/year depending on which state you live in . I assume some days the effective rate per hour is quite a bit better than the worst-case example you provided which means FT FAs are right in line with the average wage earner in the US and they objectively have more time off per year than their FT peers in other industries.

 

[nic4us]

Off topic but can anyone tell me how to use the ignore feature on this website?

Sure...it is easy...I simply ignore uncouth material. For instance, your avatar. Bono (an Irishman) denigrating the American Flag.


Just kidding, I am a big fan, but couldn't help messing with Sparrowhawk.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Is this an anomaly or par for the course? Math is math no matter how a person may feel about it. For example, a regular FT position that pays $17.87/hour works out to $37,169/year based on 40-hour WW and 52 weeks a year (some of that pay coming in the form of holidays and vacations). So, that sounds like a pretty descent job considering the median household (single earner) income in America according to the US Census bureau is about $30-50K/year depending on which state you live in . I assume some days the effective rate per hour is quite a bit better than the worst-case example you provided which means FT FAs are right in line with the average wage earner in the US and they objectively have more time off per year than their FT peers in other industries.

We're also talking Top of Scale and holding a line. On the East you have to be something like 16 years with the company to hold a line. If you're NOT ToS and sitting reserve I know of some F/A's who earn in the low $20's and in some case if they have kids are eligible for Food Stamps. You can twist, obfuscate and spin the facts anyway you like. Truth is the job ain't all that hot anymore.

Frankly based upon the wages and time commitment required I've no earthly idea why anyone would become a Flight Attendant. Most of them could make more money working in a good Restaurant as a server and hide a bunch of their tip income from the IRS thugs.

Now I will say that no one and I mean no one is holding a gun to any ones head to take any job. So I go back to "Don't B*tch! Switch". However I'm not being quiet and sit here picking my nose while you spew half truths and seek to obfuscate the reality of being a F/A!

 

[CallawayGolf]

We're also talking Top of Scale and holding a line. On the East you have to be something like 16 years with the company to hold a line. If you're NOT ToS and sitting reserve I know of some F/A's who earn in the low $20's and in some case if they have kids are eligible for Food Stamps. You can twist, obfuscate and spin the facts anyway you like. Truth is the job ain't all that hot anymore.

Frankly based upon the wages and time commitment required I've no earthly idea why anyone would become a Flight Attendant. Most of them could make more money working in a good Restaurant as a server and hide a bunch of their tip income from the IRS thugs.

Now I will say that no one and I mean no one is holding a gun to any ones head to take any job. So I go back to "Don't B*tch! Switch". However I'm not being quiet and sit here picking my nose while you spew half truths and seek to obfuscate the reality of being a F/A!

Now it's half truths? Okay, please point out which statement(s) are not factually correct.

BTW, I never claimed new hire or low-seniority FAs were in the same pay scale or had the same opportunity as those who could effectively be considered full-time at the other end of the spectrum. If you are a breadwinner looking to provide for a family, then becoming a new FA at any airline is probably a very poor choice because those at the top of the scale have created an imbalance in the total compensation of their workgroup. Can someone honestly say that a 15, 20, or 30 year FA creates more value to the customer or to airline operations than someone who has "only" been in the job for 2,3,5 or 10 years? The free market forces are completely out of whack so that those at the bottom of the scale of forced by labor agreements to subsidize those who enjoy their positions at the top of the scale for doing essentially the identical job day in and day out. There is only so much money that can go to that operational function at the airline and if those at the top siphon off the best wages and leave only crumbs for those at the bottom, whose fault is that?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Is this an anomaly or par for the course? Math is math no matter how a person may feel about it.

But numbers can be picked to show a particular point...

Take commuting time - unless they work at home, commuting is unpaid time required to make a living. Yet you count that in the average workers "work" time 5 days a week, inflating their hours "worked" a year. You also include it in FA's "work" time but most FA's don't commute 5 days a week so you include it in the unpaid "work" time.

Don't know about the west, but on the east I suspect that the average on the job or layover time is twice the pay time - remember that on the east the FA's stay with the pilots so are effectively subject to the FAA duty/rest rules. It's hard to be a FA from home so commuting is a necessity for having the job, just like the ordinary worker but less often. So you deflate the "work" hours of a FA.

Then you've got the odds and ends. Most of the FA's don't get the luxury of being off on holidays with pay, especially the big ones. The don't get the luxury of eating dinner with their family every night. Or seeing the spouse/kids every morning. They miss some of the dance recitals or T-ball games, birthdays, seeing the kids off to senior prom, etc. The quality of life things that most hourly workers expect.

The result - you get the answer you want. I'd bet that if you stood on a corner and asked normal hourly workers if $40/hr was a good rate of pay they'd say yes. If you then explained that they had to work 2 hours for 1 hour of pay, a week of vacation doesn't necessarily mean 5 days or 40 hours of pay + the weekends on either end but 7 days that might pay as little as 10-15 hours, be gone days at a time, miss the kids opening presents Christmas morning, miss Thanksgiving with the family, etc, they'd think twice about how great that $40/hour sounds.

Sure there are plenty of people wanting to be FA's. Just like there are plenty of people who line up for a $10-20/hour 9-5 jobs.

 

[CallawayGolf]

But numbers can be picked to show a particular point...

True enough, but averages over a large population size tend to normalize the data back towards an arithmetic mean or median if you prefer.

Take commuting time - unless they work at home, commuting is unpaid time required to make a living. Yet you count that in the average workers "work" time 5 days a week, inflating their hours "worked" a year. You also include it in FA's "work" time but most FA's don't commute 5 days a week so you include it in the unpaid "work" time.

I add commute time for traditional 9-5 employees because that is a real part of their day that they have only so much control over. Could they live within walking distance of their workplace? Perhaps unless we are talking downtown where small apartments and condos are WAY more expensive than options just a few miles away from most downtown locations.

Now I did factor in some commute time for FAs, but I don't know how you can make a representative statement about those who choose to commute the way only pilots and FA really can and live in a different city than where their base is located. A 9-5 employee most likely doesn't have that option of getting on a plane at 7:00am every morning and then getting on another one at 6:00pm every night. Someone who works at Home Depot would probably consider that beyond the pale of insanity not to mention that the cost of doing so would negate their wages earned for the day/week/year or whatever. Living in one state or distant city while working FT in another city is a pretty remote scenario among traditional 9-5 employees making less than $50k/year. I think most outside of this business would say don't complain about that kind of commute scenario and don't try to count flying from a home city to a base city as uncompensated time as this is simply a lifestyle choice that few others in similar paying jobs could even consider.

Don't know about the west, but on the east I suspect that the average on the job or layover time is twice the pay time - remember that on the east the FA's stay with the pilots so are effectively subject to the FAA duty/rest rules. It's hard to be a FA from home so commuting is a necessity for having the job, just like the ordinary worker but less often. So you deflate the "work" hours of a FA.

Even if you double this for FAs they still work less than a 9-5 employee earning the same take home pay. Is doubling the correct factor to use, I don't know, but I suspect for the "average" FA that lives in their base city, probably not. Even if it is, the gap closes a bit, but it still doesn't work out to the time spent at a regular FT job.

Then you've got the odds and ends. Most of the FA's don't get the luxury of being off on holidays with pay, especially the big ones. The don't get the luxury of eating dinner with their family every night. Or seeing the spouse/kids every morning. They miss some of the dance recitals or T-ball games, birthdays, seeing the kids off to senior prom, etc. The quality of life things that most hourly workers expect.

There are lots of jobs that require work at non-traditional hours. Hotels, restaurants, gas stations, Wal-Mart, taxi drivers, snow plow drivers firemen, police officers, border agents, and many others are required to work when others are enjoying family time. This is by no means an exclusive downside reserved just for FAs or those in the airline business.

The result - you get the answer you want. I'd bet that if you stood on a corner and asked normal hourly workers if $40/hr was a good rate of pay they'd say yes. If you then explained that they had to work 2 hours for 1 hour of pay, a week of vacation doesn't necessarily mean 5 days or 40 hours of pay + the weekends on either end but 7 days that might pay as little as 10-15 hours, be gone days at a time, miss the kids opening presents Christmas morning, miss Thanksgiving with the family, etc, they'd think twice about how great that $40/hour sounds.

Sure there are plenty of people wanting to be FA's. Just like there are plenty of people who line up for a $10-20/hour 9-5 jobs.

I'm not trying to get to any result. I'm just stating that $40/hr isn't an accurate description of FAs true hourly rate, but that working 8x5X50 isn't an accurate description either. Those who don't think the positive benefits outweigh the negative aspects of the job should move on somewhere else. By and large most FAs do not, so they are in effect agreeing that the benefits of being an FA are better than the other options they might consider as an alternative which would likely include more days and hours at work for the same amount of take home pay.