Uplifting News Perhaps?

[AAStew]

Well AA stew - As far as offending me - let's just say - You must be a joy to work with! Hope I don't offend YOU!

My question stemmed around all the flights that we came to AA with. Since I don't fly international I didn't stay up with which ones remain SINCE AA TOOK TWA!

Some were St Louis to the following cities: Maui, Hawaii, Paris, Frankfurt....on and on.

We took TWA? Please get over it, I think the financial transaction is available on the internet should you need to refresh your memory on how much we actually paid for TWA!

Why do LAtreal's post bother you so much, he did not say anything derogatory. This is a forum you know, where different opinions can be heard.

I

 

[L1011Ret]

If AA purchase of TWA was such a horrible transaction, why continue to fly the 120-130 TWA airplanes now on the AA certificate? In fact, if those airplanes were not on the AA certificate, there would have been a lot more furloughs of nAAtive F/As and pilots. The TWA purchase saved a lot of AA jobs.

 

[latreal]

If AA purchase of TWA was such a horrible transaction, why continue to fly the 120-130 TWA airplanes now on the AA certificate? In fact, if those airplanes were not on the AA certificate, there would have been a lot more furloughs of nAAtive F/As and pilots. The TWA purchase saved a lot of AA jobs.

Were'nt those leases?
(Legitimate question, please don't let it cause division, of contribute to FA hatred.)

 

[Ifly2]

Hey AAStew, Latreal, Winglet, etal...

Perhaps you would like to explain how AA's purchase of TW was "debilitating".
The cost was +/- $740 mil, and A received +/- $240 mil from the sale of WorldSpan. The rest of the 'debt' assumed was for operating leases on things like airplanes, equipment and facilities. Those things are now being used to generate revenue, just as the similiarly financed assets fo AA are. (just not enough revenue.) So perhaps you would like to explain how the roughly half billion dollar expenditure has been so 'debilitating' to the mighty $20 Billion+/year AA?

It is easy to say now that AA did not need to buy TW, but you would have had to have had a very powerful crystal ball to see the last three years' carnage in this industry coming in 2000, when the deal was put together. Remember, if you can, that for the nearly 20 years prior this business was dominated by a fight for market share. Bigger was better. Size enabled pricing control. One of the first blows in this fight was AA's creation of the 'SuperSaver' fares in a bid to fill all the seats AA flooded a too small marketplace with in its initial push to become what we now know as a worldwide network carrier. In 2000, AA was in second place, looking at the possibility of UA/UAir, and had no room left to grow in either ORD or DFW. In that context, buying TWA added market share and afforded added flexibility and facilities in the midwest at STL, as well as both coasts. Because the offer required that TW file bankruptcy under a specific section of chapter 11, AA was able to cherry-pick the parts it wanted, or saw value in, and leave the rest. Interestingly AA kept all of the operation except a few 767-200's, and the TLV service, and all of the facilities that supported that operation. I figure they must have seen some value there somewhere. The financial press praised this as a really sweet deal for AA.

As for the employees, you may not have wanted TW. Well, what we want doesn't count for much at this level. Oh well. No one can say for certain, but it is highly likely that AA would have experienced downsizing similiar in scope to that of the other legacy carriers during the last three years. Without having massive numbers of former TW people to place at the bottom of your seniority lists, the effects would probably have been far worse for the original AA employees. Before you start, consider where the original EA folks who came to USAir by way of the Trump shuttle were placed on that list (DOH). Or, TW/OZ (DOH), or NW/RP (DOH), or US/PSA (DOH), or US/Piedmont (DOH), or UAL/Capitol, or DL/NE, or DL/WN, or PAA/National, even AA/AirCal. These were all acquisitions resulting in a merger of operations. I guess there was something 'special' about AA/TW. I think the something 'special' was/is a culture of institutionalized arrogance.

As for TW being a loser. Yeah, TW managed to lose a lot of $$. The two main reasons were previous managements' sucessful attempts to remove as much cash as possible from the company, and its small network and lack of market share. Oh, network, and market share, the very things that AA was trying to build and protect when it bought TW. (Incidentally, for those of you who think bankruptcy is a good idea, another major factor was a post bankruptcy BOD that was controlled by the major creditors. Thier primary focus was on recovering as much as possible of thier individual losses, to the detriment of efforts to rebuild the airline.)

As for the quality of the operation and the employees, sorry if this offends, (not really, and neither were you), TWA was a real winner, and AA doesn't really even come close. The daily operation is not as good, (some stations are better than others of course) and nowadays, nor are the finances. Most of the people I work with are very competent, but that is about as far as it goes. There are a few exceptions of course, but generally, there is "Nothing Special In The Air". And before you say it, yes, I like my job. I enjoy doing it, I enjoy most of the people I work with on a personal level, and I do respect that they 'do thier jobs'. I will also, however, stand by the "Nothing special..." comment.

I will concede that looking back now, AA didn't need TW, but at the time it sure looked like a great deal.

Should we judge Thomas Jefferson by today's sense of morality?

ifly2
and I still love it

 

[A/C FIXER]

Quote by ifly2

"Interestingly AA kept all of the operation except a few 767-200's"

Actually, we also got rid of the 757s that had PW engines and the 717s, as well as several of the MD80s that were leased. We continue to reconfigure the TW planes to AA's standard, that includes new larger O/H bins, new seats in some A/C and wiring mods for updated avionics.

 

[AAStew]

IFly2,
It is wonderful that TWA employees had so much pride in their company and apparently it was great place to work. I congratulate you all for this. AA is sorely lacking in this aspect.
But it is arrogant of you to say I was trying to offend. I was not, but if you take it personally that is your perogative.
My opinion and that of people who make it their business to analyze airlines was that the TWA acquisition was a mistake. It probably seemed like a smart move to management at the time, but it did not serve the purpose they imagined it would and bled us of needed cash.
Does this mean I did not want the former TWA employees at AA? Absolutely not. We may not all agree on the seniority issues, but as for not wanting TWA'RS at AA, you are absolutely wrong. We know that the AA corporate culture sucks and we welcomed a new insight.
Again to take this all so personally is beyond me, but be my guest to take this anyway you want.
I do hope to see you in AA uniform soon.

 

[mjk]

Isn't it amazing that yet another thread gets turned into AA vs TWA. :wacko:


😱ff:

 

[AAStew]

MJK,
You are right, it is amazing.

 

[FWAAA]

Quote by ifly2

"Interestingly AA kept all of the operation except a few 767-200's"

Actually, we also got rid of the 757s that had PW engines and the 717s, as well as several of the MD80s that were leased. We continue to reconfigure the TW planes to AA's standard, that includes new larger O/H bins, new seats in some A/C and wiring mods for updated avionics.

Only 9 of the PW 757s are currently stored. Bunches of them still flying for AA.

And none of TWA's 767-200s ever flew with TWA LLC, as they were already gone prior to the AA purchase. TWA's 9 PW 767-300s were retired last year when the new 763s ordered to replace them showed up.

AA didn't keep the DC-9-30s either.

But I digress. Christ almightly - does every thread have to be "TWA sucks and is why AA is in the toilet"? Or "TWA was the greatest airline and wasn't really bankrupt - AA just defrauded the court when it bought the assets"?

Time to let it go and move on.

Everyone here has 20/20 vision now.

 

[N905TW]

does every thread have to be "TWA sucks and is why AA is in the toilet"? Or "TWA was the greatest airline and wasn't really bankrupt - AA just defrauded the court when it bought the assets"?


I agree, that these topics are always headed in the same direction, and much of that is due to certain posters just enjoying to "stir the pot". One or two posters know exactly how under our skin it gets us to see our airline trashed day after day and used as scapegoats for all of AAs problems.

However, since it was brought up.... AA did lie and defraud many, as did the respective AA unions. While all you AA'ers are out there reminding us how bad we were, please tell me where the crews are that came with the 120 - 130 TWA aircraft that are still in the AA fleet? Where are the cockpit crews? Where are the Flight Attendants? Where are our agents and mechanics that CAME WITH THAT AIRCRAFT?

Oh yeah, thats right, the more you bash us, the easier to justify stealing our aircraft and jobs. Does that make you sleep better at night?

 

[jsn25911]

Isn't it amazing that yet another thread gets turned into AA vs TWA. :wacko:


😱ff:

And I guess it shouldn't be a surprise that it was an AA f/a that changed that thread.

And yes AA stew - it was wrong for you to turn this thread into us against you. I questioned which international was part of the 19%, and it was you that started with your offending remarks.

 

[jsn25911]

As far as I know the ONLY international (if you want to call it that) route that belonged to TWA that we are flying is STL-SJU. TWA buyout was a bad move for AA. WSe are not profiting at the cost of TWA employess or assets but we are paying for it due to bad foresight on the part of Don Carty. I am sorry if this offends the TWA folks but we bought a lemon.

I believe this was the start of the thread where is started "us" against "you".


So AA stew don't act so high and mighty now - you knew exactly what you were starting!

 

[latreal]

Dangit, The first mention of TWA was by u JSN.

This thread was clearly about AA.

And stop being so "see-through", folks on the board knew what u were implying when u asked the qustion.
The would be no "Uplifting News" if it was not for the TWA purchase).
Come on now. B)

 

[Hunter]

Perhaps you would like to explain how AA's purchase of TW was "debilitating".
The cost was +/- $740 mil, and A received +/- $240 mil from the sale of WorldSpan. The rest of the 'debt' assumed was for operating leases on things like airplanes, equipment and facilities. Those things are now being used to generate revenue, just as the similiarly financed assets fo AA are. (just not enough revenue.) So perhaps you would like to explain how the roughly half billion dollar expenditure has been so 'debilitating' to the mighty $20 Billion+/year AA?

AAStew -

I might add that AA's share of the 9/11 government cash bailout increased by nearly $200 million as a result of the TWA ASM's. Interestingly, TWA was up and running at nearly 70% pre-9/11 levels shortly after the government allowed service to resume. That cannot be said of the AA operation.

AA was able to begin "shuttle" service between BOS, LGA, and DCA thanks in part to the TWA slots at DCA and LGA. Rather than having to acquiring those, at the time, high yield slots through lease or purchase, AA saved millions.

There were other tangible benefits as well such as the elimination of the 2nd largest carrier to the Caribbean, at the time, a relatively high yield market. All told, I'd say AA did pretty well for itself with the TWA purchase. Regrettably, that cannot be said of the TWA employees.

But, what is done is done, at least until the courts decide. Revisionist history on this topic, however, should always be challenged at every turn.

Hunter

 

[AAStew]

I believe this was the start of the thread where is started "us" against "you".


So AA stew don't act so high and mighty now - you knew exactly what you were starting!

JSN
You don't merit a reply, but regardless I will. You are the one who brought up TWA. If you don't like AA, and want to talk about TWA please go to Airlines of The Past or you can get a Singada vida!!!