FrugalFlyerv2.0
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- Oct 29, 2003
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If AA management team is worthless, I'd like to hear your opinion of US, or UA, or DL/NW management.
Unions vs. Executive Bonus
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Hackman
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- Sep 30, 2003
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Equally worthless and underhanded, especially UA and NWA. Of course there is promise with the Delta CEO that refused his bonus last year, the right thing to do. That's leadership.
I guess NWA is no longer, and that should have happened long ago.
The problem in the US corporate world today is these MBA types think that they bring unlimited dollars worth of value to a corporation, even if the company fails they still think they deserve the lottery winnings. No one is worth that much money!!!! NO ONE!!!!
When the company fails they deserve nothing less than a boot in the a$$ and if crimes have been comitted, justice up to and including death (Bernie Madoff should not be spared....period). The US corporate world has lost it's collective mind, and the working class tax payers are paying for it. These white collar criminals should be glad they live in the USA and not Japan or China. They would be executed post haste!!!!
TIME FOR CHANGE
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They pale in comparison to Southwest management. That about sums it up.
eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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"480 executives got pay raises, while 463 had pay cuts"
Great factoid there, believe it or not. Many companies with a Jan-Dec financial calendar do their pay plans in April or May (following annual meetings), so I find it interesting that almost half the CEO's reported pay cuts BEFORE the meltdowns with AIG, Fannie and Freddie.
I suspect this same report in another few months is quite likely to show a reversal.
Great factoid there, believe it or not. Many companies with a Jan-Dec financial calendar do their pay plans in April or May (following annual meetings), so I find it interesting that almost half the CEO's reported pay cuts BEFORE the meltdowns with AIG, Fannie and Freddie.
I suspect this same report in another few months is quite likely to show a reversal.
SkydrolJunkie
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- Mar 16, 2006
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Better yet. I do 30 minutes work on a 10 hour shift...
TIME FOR CHANGE
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The PUP pay is not even relevant to us since it comes from stock, not cash. It may not look good, but I also hate the lies and spin our dear leaders try to put on it every year. It's as if we should all be surprised that executives make more than FAs or mechanics.
But if they want to give me a stock grant, I'll take it.
But if they want to give me a stock grant, I'll take it.
Hackman
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It maynot be relevent to you bootlicker, but it's millions not warranted when the workers get nothing for saving AMR from bankruptcy.The PUP pay is not even relevant to us since it comes from stock, not cash. It may not look good, but I also hate the lies and spin our dear leaders try to put on it every year. It's as if we should all be surprised that executives make more than FAs or mechanics.
But if they want to give me a stock grant, I'll take it.
Our leaders lie? You mean the ones that work at Centerpork right?
Give you a stock grant? Jeezus your out there..... :blink:
OP
Hopeful
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- Dec 21, 2002
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The PUP pay is not even relevant to us since it comes from stock, not cash. It may not look good, but I also hate the lies and spin our dear leaders try to put on it every year. It's as if we should all be surprised that executives make more than FAs or mechanics.
But if they want to give me a stock grant, I'll take it.
No one here is criticizing executive SALARY...It's is the PUPS that they get when the rest of us get squat.
Yeah, yea,,,,,,It's part of their COMPENSATION and it comes in the form of STOCK.....
It is still PAY....Do they not pay tax on it? Does their W-2 NOT reflect PUP pay? It is exempt from taxes? It is still PAY, plain and simple.
Now if you want to defend them by saying it really doesn't cost the company anything because it is stock based....Then give each employee a few thousand shares instead of the paltry amount we received IN RETURN for concessions.
That's the difference, BL.. I lost $20000 a year for six years and counting only to get it optioned at $5/share while the executives just get handed to it as PART of their compensation package. Yea yea it hit $40 a share. It has to hit $267 / share for me to get it back. Then you can subtract the $5 i have to pay back to the company.
Since it really doesn't affect AMR's bottom line, then issue thousands to each employee.
OP
Hopeful
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- Dec 21, 2002
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Just get to the paragraph where they are frezzing the pay of their officers...
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Southwest-Ai...b-14945087.html
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Southwest-Ai...b-14945087.html
eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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Yep. And the buyout they're offering to workers excludes senior managers and above.
Let me get this right.... you have no problem with SALARY -- you have a problem with COMPENSATION?....
That's like saying you have no problem with people drinking beer, but you're against the consumption of alcohol.
I have no problem with bonuses based on meeting profitability, operational or financial targets, because those are the same triggers for profit sharing. The thresholds for profit sharing are actually lower than those for management and executive bonuses. I forget which year it was, but the last year profit sharing paid out anything significant to employees, management and execs got nothing because the second hurdle wasn't met.
I've also consistently stated that the methodology behind triggering the PUP (peer group stock price) is flawed and should have been replaced four years ago.
That said, it's in their contracts. I know you hate hearing that, but just like staffing requirements, ASM caps, outsourcing, scope etc. are all in your contracts, you can't decide to selectively honor some pieces of a contract and set aside other pieces. And spare me the crap about the 2003 gun to the head. You can't undo what happened five years ago. You can only try to fix things going forward.
I'm really surprised that nobody seems to have taken the approach of requesting reciprocal concessions from the executives as part of your current negotiations.
If the APA, APFA, and TWU stepped up as a whole and said they'd never sign a contract until PUPs specifically are eliminated, I have a feeling you might actually have some bargaining power.
It's reasonable, especially if you're being asked to limit your own pay or workrules. An arbitrator or mediator might back you up, and it's likely a PEB would even agree in this day and age.
But it has to be done thru the CBA process. Billboards, ads in the paper and games on a website won't do much to fix the problem. Neither will demonstrations in front of HDQ.
Let me get this right.... you have no problem with SALARY -- you have a problem with COMPENSATION?....
That's like saying you have no problem with people drinking beer, but you're against the consumption of alcohol.
I have no problem with bonuses based on meeting profitability, operational or financial targets, because those are the same triggers for profit sharing. The thresholds for profit sharing are actually lower than those for management and executive bonuses. I forget which year it was, but the last year profit sharing paid out anything significant to employees, management and execs got nothing because the second hurdle wasn't met.
I've also consistently stated that the methodology behind triggering the PUP (peer group stock price) is flawed and should have been replaced four years ago.
That said, it's in their contracts. I know you hate hearing that, but just like staffing requirements, ASM caps, outsourcing, scope etc. are all in your contracts, you can't decide to selectively honor some pieces of a contract and set aside other pieces. And spare me the crap about the 2003 gun to the head. You can't undo what happened five years ago. You can only try to fix things going forward.
I'm really surprised that nobody seems to have taken the approach of requesting reciprocal concessions from the executives as part of your current negotiations.
If the APA, APFA, and TWU stepped up as a whole and said they'd never sign a contract until PUPs specifically are eliminated, I have a feeling you might actually have some bargaining power.
It's reasonable, especially if you're being asked to limit your own pay or workrules. An arbitrator or mediator might back you up, and it's likely a PEB would even agree in this day and age.
But it has to be done thru the CBA process. Billboards, ads in the paper and games on a website won't do much to fix the problem. Neither will demonstrations in front of HDQ.
TIME FOR CHANGE
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That said, it's in their contracts. I know you hate hearing that, but just like staffing requirements, ASM caps, outsourcing, scope etc. are all in your contracts, you can't decide to selectively honor some pieces of a contract and set aside other pieces. And spare me the crap about the 2003 gun to the head. You can't undo what happened five years ago. You can only try to fix things going forward.
So it was OK to open up and shred our contract but its not OK to open up and shred theirs.
What a hippocrit
So it was OK to open up and shred our contract but its not OK to open up and shred theirs.
What a hippocrit
eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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Sure, it's my fault your union agreed to concessions and didn't demand a pound of flesh in exchange for shredding of the contract.
You can claim that the company had a gun to your head, but the fact is that Carty had been talking with the union heads since December 2002 about the need for restructuring, several months prior to the bankruptcy showdown in April.
Bickering about 2003 or what the executives got that you didn't won't do you any good right now.
Fix the problem at the table. Use Ford as an example (http://www.freep.com/article/20090224/BUSINESS01/90224090) where management's bonuses were canceled as part of a tentative agreement with the UAW.
You can claim that the company had a gun to your head, but the fact is that Carty had been talking with the union heads since December 2002 about the need for restructuring, several months prior to the bankruptcy showdown in April.
Bickering about 2003 or what the executives got that you didn't won't do you any good right now.
Fix the problem at the table. Use Ford as an example (http://www.freep.com/article/20090224/BUSINESS01/90224090) where management's bonuses were canceled as part of a tentative agreement with the UAW.
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