Here is the truth of the matter. One large US airline has got to go plain and simple. For a while it looked like it was going to be U. Granted U is not that big but it would have opened up the very lucrative east coast and either UAL or AA would have taken what they could get their hands on. U pulled it self up by its bootstraps and gave away the store to save itself and as U is coming out of bankruptcy in 7 days it looks like they will be around for a while with huge cuts in employee costs ( they just got another 5% across the board because of the war with Iraq)and about 1.24B in the bank to ride out this mess. So that leaves UAL. Things at UAL do look pretty bad at the moment But with the right DIP financing and a gun to their heads they could also give away the store and downsize. If UAL management gets their way they will get rid of all contracts on the property and just do as they like and pay employee's what ever they want and tell them they are welcome to stay if they want and if not there is the door. In this case a smaller raped UAL will probably make it( remember if they get their # in order they can reapply for exit funding from the government)David Bonner of U DIP financing also has stated that he would be willing to buy all of dulles and most of UAL gates and slots at chicago If they were willing to sell, They might, they may need additional funds. So that leaves AA next in line. I have always had a great respect for the way AA unions have delt with their management. But these are different times. My guess is that management at AA wants to go bankrupt. It seems like its the only way to get their guns out and hold you hostage. I think that no matter what you give in consessions you will still go bankrupt with one exception. If UAL goes capter 7 before you file AA may be able to avoid going bankrupt. You will still have to give large concessions but you may be able to avoid the gutting that happend at U. So thats the way things look to me Its all up to what UAL unions will do to save Their airline.
Union proposal
- Thread starter Hopeful
- Start date
Well no it is not the perfect time to exit chapter 11 but is also not the worst. U is in a pretty good position now. The worst time to exit would be when there are large healthy carriers ready to attack you at every turn. U will have the new cost saving contracts in place and enough money to sit the rest of this mess out. U with the help of David Bonner will be able to aquire some assets that would fit into our system from ailing large carriers. (I''m sure AA would love to dump STL and I''m sure U would love to have it. They may even give ex TWA employee''s date of hire seniority as they have done in the past with other carriers.)So it is not the best time to come out of chapter ll but I would say its a worse time to go in. It looks like the government is going to sit this one out and let the airlines fall where they may.
KC tirechanger
Member
- Mar 3, 2003
- 56
- 0
US, Sorry! But we as employee''s of the Airline Industry don''t have to do anything! Let the chips fall where they may! Let the country loose this resource! Let George W. fly his troops to Bagdad on Southwest! Remember people, there is life after U, UAL, and, or A.A.!!!!!!
KC, I hope you were not offended by my comments on the state of our industry. I have been reading some of the AA threads and I can hear the anger and frustration. I know you are a tough bunch over at AA. (I always wanted to work for AA but It never came to be). I currently have 16 years at U and I just want to let you all know what has happend here and this hell may be comming your way. Almost everything has changed to all of our contracts. They held a gun to our heads and said If you don''t vote for these changes we will liquidate. F/A''s took about a 20% cut in pay and workrules(also a new 5% pay deferal for 18 months)
They got rid of all Utility(Cleaners) in all but large stations. The pilots just got cleaned out. 20% to 60% pay cuts and the end of there retirement program.(they just signed on to a new program that will give them next to nothing if they are close to retirement). All other work groups have recieved large paycuts and layoffs or are forced into part time. Our insurance will cost us 3 times what it did before 9/11. Vacation has been cut by about 20% and the value of each day for flight crews has been reduced by about 1/2 hour per day. I could go on and on. Now if this were any other time we would have shut this place down before we agreed to anything like this but as we all know there is no place to go. Even with all these cuts my insurance is less than most non airline workers pay and my pay is still enough to cover my mortgage. I wish I could tell you to fight for what is right and stand up to them but if you do you may be out of a job. I know there is life after an airline job but take a good look around and see what other jobs pay to start. My advice is to give them what they want get as short a contract as you can and live to fight another day. Good luck to us all
They got rid of all Utility(Cleaners) in all but large stations. The pilots just got cleaned out. 20% to 60% pay cuts and the end of there retirement program.(they just signed on to a new program that will give them next to nothing if they are close to retirement). All other work groups have recieved large paycuts and layoffs or are forced into part time. Our insurance will cost us 3 times what it did before 9/11. Vacation has been cut by about 20% and the value of each day for flight crews has been reduced by about 1/2 hour per day. I could go on and on. Now if this were any other time we would have shut this place down before we agreed to anything like this but as we all know there is no place to go. Even with all these cuts my insurance is less than most non airline workers pay and my pay is still enough to cover my mortgage. I wish I could tell you to fight for what is right and stand up to them but if you do you may be out of a job. I know there is life after an airline job but take a good look around and see what other jobs pay to start. My advice is to give them what they want get as short a contract as you can and live to fight another day. Good luck to us all
KC tirechanger
Member
- Mar 3, 2003
- 56
- 0
US,I hear what your saying, and my contention is that they''ll only take away what you let them! And I don''t say this lightly! I''ve been though this more than once before! There comes a point where you have to ask yourself, "Is it worth it anymore?" So,what more can it hurt to just say NO! Look! As I was driving to work today, I look arround me at the "normal" flow of traffic, and thought to myself "Self, are all these people going down to the Airport to work on Airplanes?" Well, you know the answeer to that one! Granted! Everyone''s got his own threshold for how much is too much! But you have to concider are your beating a dead hourse! And maybe it''s time to get on with your life!
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On 3/25/2003 12:36:54 PM Us/Metro wrote:
My advice is to give them what they want get as short a contract as you can and live to fight another day. Good luck to us all
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On 3/25/2003 12:36:54 PM Us/Metro wrote:
My advice is to give them what they want get as short a contract as you can and live to fight another day. Good luck to us all
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If this is not worth fighting against then what is?
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On 3/25/2003 10
37 AM KC tirechanger wrote:
US, Sorry! But we as employee''s of the Airline Industry don''t have to do anything! Let the chips fall where they may! Let the country loose this resource! Let George W. fly his troops to Bagdad on Southwest! Remember people, there is life after U, UAL, and, or A.A.!!!!!!
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On 3/25/2003 10
37 AM KC tirechanger wrote: US, Sorry! But we as employee''s of the Airline Industry don''t have to do anything! Let the chips fall where they may! Let the country loose this resource! Let George W. fly his troops to Bagdad on Southwest! Remember people, there is life after U, UAL, and, or A.A.!!!!!!
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I agree. Does anyone think that USAIR, UAL and AA are all going to liquidate? Think people, if one of them goes, OK, maybe but all three? Didnt Bush stop the mechanics from striking a short while back because he said the economy and the hard working people of America had a right to travel therefore he would not allow the mechanics to deprive the American people of this right? So that was one airline, now we are talking about eliminating 40% of the capacity in the industry. B^&&$#!t
I say let the chips fall where they may, if the judge abrogates one contract, every union should walk. That would shut down everyone except Jet Blue. How many planes do they have?
Oliver Stone''s Apprentice
Veteran
- Aug 19, 2002
- 786
- 0
Bob, you''re sounding like Michael Moore did at the Oscars... Do you really expect workers of the world to unite anymore?
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On 3/27/2003 7:48:41 PM eolesen wrote:
Bob, you''re sounding like Michael Moore did at the Oscars... Do you really expect workers of the world to unite anymore?
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On 3/27/2003 7:48:41 PM eolesen wrote:
Bob, you''re sounding like Michael Moore did at the Oscars... Do you really expect workers of the world to unite anymore?
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Well at least he isnt afraid to stand up and be counted and say it as he sees it. Workers of the world? I''d be happy just to see the mechanics of AA unite and say NO to unreasonable concessions.
True story: When UA decided to build a new overhaul base they looked all over the country, it came down to two cities. Oklahoma City and Indianapolis,Indy won. The Mayor of OK City spoke to the CEO of UA to find out where they went wrong. He told them it was nothing they did. In fact the incentive package they offered was actually superior to the one they received from Indianapolis. So why didn''t they choose his city he asked? QUALITY OF LIFE!! The CEO didn''t feel he could ask his employees to live in a place like Oklahoma City!
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On 3/24/2003 8:29:05 PM Bob Owens wrote:
Maybe he has a point!
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Things I Have Learned About Oklahoma:
Armadillos sleep in the middle of the road with their feet in the air.
There are 5,000 types of snakes and 4,998 live in Oklahoma.
There are 10,000 types of spiders. All 10,000 live in Oklahoma, plus a couple no one''s seen before.
Raccoons will test your crop of melons and let you know when they are ripe.
If it grows, it sticks; if it crawls, it bites.
Nothing will kill a mesquite tree.
There are valid reasons some people put razor wire around their house.
A tractor is NOT an all-terrain vehicle. They do get stuck.
The wind blows at 90 mph from October 2 until June 25, then it stops totally until October 2.
Onced and twiced are words.
Coldbeer is one word.
People actually grow and eat okra.
Green grass DOES burn.
When you live in the country, you don''t have to buy a dog. City peopledrop them off at your gate in the middle of the night.
The sound of coyotes howling at night only sounds good for the first couple of weeks.
When a buzzard sits on the fence and stares at you,it''s time to go to the doctor.
Fix-in-to is one word.
A tank is a dirt hole in the ground that holds water for irrigation,watterin'' the cows, or swimming.
There ain''t no such thing as "lunch". There''s only dinner and then there''s supper.
Tea is appropriate for all meals and you start drinking it when you''re two.
Backwards and forwards means I know everything about you. ''Jeet?'' isactually a phrase meaning, "Did you eat?"
You don''t have to wear a watch because it doesn''t matter what time it is.
You work until you''re done or it''s too dark to see.
More Oklahomanisms:
You know you''re from Oklahoma if:
1. You measure distance in minutes.
2. You''ve ever had to switch from "heat" to "A/C" in the same day.
3. Stores don''t have bags; they have sacks.
4. You see a car running in the parking lot at the store with no one in it, no matter what time of the year.
5. You use "fix" as a verb. Example: I am fixing to go to the store.(Note: in the portion above "fix-in-to" is one word......)
6. All the festivals across the state are named after a fruit, vegetable,grain, insect or animal.
7. You install security lights on your house and garage and leave both unlocked.
8. You carry jumper cables in your car...for your OWN car.
9. You know what "cow tipping" and "snipe hunting" are.
10. You only own four spices: salt, pepper, ketchup, and Tabasco.
11. You think everyone from a bigger city has an accent.
12. You think sexy lingerie is a tee shirt and boxer shorts.
13. The local papers covers national and international news on one page but requires six pages for local gossip and sports.
14. You think that the first day of deer season is a national holiday.
15. You know which leaves make good toilet paper.
16. You find 100 degrees F "a little warm."
17. You know all four seasons: Almost summer, summer, still summer, and Christmas.
18. You know whether another Oklahoman is from East, West, North or South Oklahoma as soon as he opens his mouth.
19. There is a Braums in every town with a population of 1000 or more.
20. Going to Wal-Mart is a favorite past-time known as "goin Wal-Martin"or off to "Wally World."
21. You describe the first cool snap (below 70 degrees) as good chili weather.
22. A carbonated soft drink isn''t a soda, cola, or pop...it''s a Coke, regardless of brand or flavor.
23. You understand these jokes. If you do, forward them to your friends from Oklahoma.
On 3/24/2003 8:29:05 PM Bob Owens wrote:
----------------
On 3/24/2003 2:43:21 PM AAmech wrote:
Well Hopefull, Compare this to life in NY.
Stampedes when we got our first "Super Target"
Same as above when we got a "Krispy Kream" Doughnut shop!
12hr drive to the nearest beach.
Shoddy Bus Service for public transport. NO TRAINS!!
Terrible roads we must use since there is no public trans.
No access to Amtrack.
Excessive Country Music
Crummy Library system.
Public schools have some of lowest funding in Nation.
Ho-hum universty system.(except for Football and Basketball)
One of the highest poverty levels in Nation.
I''d like a little extra pay please!!
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On 3/24/2003 2:43:21 PM AAmech wrote:
Well Hopefull, Compare this to life in NY.
Stampedes when we got our first "Super Target"
Same as above when we got a "Krispy Kream" Doughnut shop!
12hr drive to the nearest beach.
Shoddy Bus Service for public transport. NO TRAINS!!
Terrible roads we must use since there is no public trans.
No access to Amtrack.
Excessive Country Music
Crummy Library system.
Public schools have some of lowest funding in Nation.
Ho-hum universty system.(except for Football and Basketball)
One of the highest poverty levels in Nation.
I''d like a little extra pay please!!
----------------
Maybe he has a point!
----------------
Things I Have Learned About Oklahoma:
Armadillos sleep in the middle of the road with their feet in the air.
There are 5,000 types of snakes and 4,998 live in Oklahoma.
There are 10,000 types of spiders. All 10,000 live in Oklahoma, plus a couple no one''s seen before.
Raccoons will test your crop of melons and let you know when they are ripe.
If it grows, it sticks; if it crawls, it bites.
Nothing will kill a mesquite tree.
There are valid reasons some people put razor wire around their house.
A tractor is NOT an all-terrain vehicle. They do get stuck.
The wind blows at 90 mph from October 2 until June 25, then it stops totally until October 2.
Onced and twiced are words.
Coldbeer is one word.
People actually grow and eat okra.
Green grass DOES burn.
When you live in the country, you don''t have to buy a dog. City peopledrop them off at your gate in the middle of the night.
The sound of coyotes howling at night only sounds good for the first couple of weeks.
When a buzzard sits on the fence and stares at you,it''s time to go to the doctor.
Fix-in-to is one word.
A tank is a dirt hole in the ground that holds water for irrigation,watterin'' the cows, or swimming.
There ain''t no such thing as "lunch". There''s only dinner and then there''s supper.
Tea is appropriate for all meals and you start drinking it when you''re two.
Backwards and forwards means I know everything about you. ''Jeet?'' isactually a phrase meaning, "Did you eat?"
You don''t have to wear a watch because it doesn''t matter what time it is.
You work until you''re done or it''s too dark to see.
More Oklahomanisms:
You know you''re from Oklahoma if:
1. You measure distance in minutes.
2. You''ve ever had to switch from "heat" to "A/C" in the same day.
3. Stores don''t have bags; they have sacks.
4. You see a car running in the parking lot at the store with no one in it, no matter what time of the year.
5. You use "fix" as a verb. Example: I am fixing to go to the store.(Note: in the portion above "fix-in-to" is one word......)
6. All the festivals across the state are named after a fruit, vegetable,grain, insect or animal.
7. You install security lights on your house and garage and leave both unlocked.
8. You carry jumper cables in your car...for your OWN car.
9. You know what "cow tipping" and "snipe hunting" are.
10. You only own four spices: salt, pepper, ketchup, and Tabasco.
11. You think everyone from a bigger city has an accent.
12. You think sexy lingerie is a tee shirt and boxer shorts.
13. The local papers covers national and international news on one page but requires six pages for local gossip and sports.
14. You think that the first day of deer season is a national holiday.
15. You know which leaves make good toilet paper.
16. You find 100 degrees F "a little warm."
17. You know all four seasons: Almost summer, summer, still summer, and Christmas.
18. You know whether another Oklahoman is from East, West, North or South Oklahoma as soon as he opens his mouth.
19. There is a Braums in every town with a population of 1000 or more.
20. Going to Wal-Mart is a favorite past-time known as "goin Wal-Martin"or off to "Wally World."
21. You describe the first cool snap (below 70 degrees) as good chili weather.
22. A carbonated soft drink isn''t a soda, cola, or pop...it''s a Coke, regardless of brand or flavor.
23. You understand these jokes. If you do, forward them to your friends from Oklahoma.
