Union proposal

[Bob Owens]

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On 3/22/2003 8:57:56 AM Buck wrote:


So if the Busdrivers have taken a stand, why not the ATD and it''s locals?

Bob I also have a question:

Is there any way or proceadure that the TWU International or the ATD can impose an agreement on or for it''s members, without the membership voting?

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Well, what message are you sending to your leaders?

I have not looked too deep into this but I believe that the International can legally change the agreement without a vote, but I do not think that its likely to happen. I believe that this is true of any union that has a CBA in place because they own the agreement. If you look at the contract it says :
Agreement between American Airlines and Transport Workers of America, AFL-CIO.

 

[Buck]

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On 3/22/2003 8:57:56 AM Buck wrote:


So if the Busdrivers have taken a stand, why not the ATD and it''s locals?

Bob I also have a question:

Is there any way or proceadure that the TWU International or the ATD can impose an agreement on or for it''s members, without the membership voting?

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Well, what message are you sending to your leaders?

I have not looked too deep into this but I believe that the International can legally change the agreement without a vote, but I do not think that its likely to happen. I believe that this is true of any union that has a CBA in place because they own the agreement. If you look at the contract it says :
Agreement between American Airlines and Transport Workers of America, AFL-CIO.


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The message I have been sending is for the AFL-CIO to take a stand for labor. That is it is past time for unions to use there right to strike. But it must be done for the whole labor movement. If when the "Busdrivers" had the whole labor movement behind them, gains would have happened at an accelerated rate. What you see is that I blast this organization. I blast them because they are no longer what they were intended to be. Today they are only a political machine, with a power so great they are afraid to use it.

( Was it Sonny Hall who was taken aback when asked what would happen if lobbying did not work? At the TWU Cope convention. A national strike being the next move. )

They are afraid because a move of this porportion would be devastating to their personal rewards of holding a position of corruption.

If the agreement is between American Airlines and the Transport Workers of America, AFL-CIO ; Then they could very well enforce an agreement without a vote of the membership. Explain a Roll Call vote to me again?

 

[Bob Owens]

Threats can be pretty serious, after all we are over in Iraq because of the "possibility" of a threat.
They did not back down from the Mayor and his threats. The fact is they were prepared to go out. The opposition knew that and gave in. Sun Tzu said "To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill". The question is; was their objective achieved? I dont know about you but I would prefer to never go out on strike if possible. I only call for strikes because some preferances outrank my desire to not strike.

 

[Bob Owens]

Get your snake buttons out and save us will ya?


The last thing you try and save on a sinking ship is the anchor.

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 3/22/2003 9:16:06 PM Buck wrote:

Explain a Roll Call vote to me again?

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Well a "Roll Call" vote is where each member is identified and casts their ballott. The record reflects how each person voted. The Roll call vote at the Presidents council is an undemocratic farce that allows one local to control the vote. It is in reality a weighted vote. The Presidents council should function in a similar fashion as the US Senate. All locals should be considered equals. If there is a vote that is very controversal then a 33% vote of the council should be able to force the vote to go to the membership. This provides a better balance of power. If one local has the option of voting for 7000 members then all the others are in reality merely spectators. They have no real power. There is no record of who votes what way and the membership is left in the dark. It is by this means that the International can have greater control over the council and blame everything on the council and each individual council member can claim that they were against an unpopular measure but "the council" voted it in. What we end up with is no accountability. Things get put in place and there is no accountability. The arguement in favor of this farce is that the president can vote in behalf of each one of his members. But that leaves us with a Tyranny of the majority where it has not been determined that all or even most of his members are in agreement. If thats what we are forced to accept then we have no incentive to take part in a process in which we have no control. The company has cited several times that SWA does not have overhaul. Overhaul rules the Presidents council, at least Maint. It could be in our best interests to escape from this tyranny of the majority, to opt out and make our own offer to the company, assuring the company that we would continue to get the airplanes out and they could do as they like with Tulsa. Some would argue that this is Union busting, but, if one local retains complete control over the union and retains the right to that control and uses that control for their interests with no regard for the needs of the other locals then how could the other locals be criticized for acting in their best interests? Even if Tulsa does not use this power the mere fact that they have it is an abuse. What moral high ground could they claim when contract after contract they have deprived their fellow unionists the ability to achieve a similar lifestyle to the one that they enjoy? The line "Well you can always move to Tulsa" is directed at individuals and does not take into account that some union brother will be in the high cost areas even if everyone tried to go to Tulsa. Why should those in the high cost areas respect the interests of those in Tulsa that control the union when their needs are not given equal consideration? True unionism is not "I got mine", true unionism makes sure that all members benifit from afiliation. In the high cost areas afiliation with workers in low cost areas has been a disadvantage. When an aircraft mechanic in NY compares his Tulsa based wages with similarly skilled workers in his area he finds that he is working at a discount. Just imagine if AA opened a massive Overhaul base in South America with 10,000 technicians that were included in our bargaining group. Well $10 per hour top out after 10 years might sound awfully good to them. Hey is a tire change in South America worth the same as a tire change in Tulsa? Would the mechanics in America be justified in trying to distance themselves from these mechanics? You could not convince these guys to hold out for more because if they did the company might move the work to Asia. What if they turned around and said "you could always move down here amigo", " Why should you get paid more than me?".
From what I've been told usually a much, much smaller local that has no reason whatsoever to call for such a vote makes the motion thereby giving the appearance that Tulsa is not running the show. As long as this process is available the Presidents council is a farce.Basically its a means by which lesser locals can make an appeal to Tulsa. Democracy is a meeting of equals, the Presidents council falls far short of this. It lacks equality, transparancy and accountability.

 

[Buck]

The seperation of TULE from the rest of the system to become like Southwest? Are they not beginning to perform their own heavy maintenance? If a seperation of the line mechanics from the base maintenance is called for, I for one would excercise my seniority and displace a line mechanic. In fact I would most likely displace a DFW mechnic to maintain my comparable cost of living. Once the seperation of the two different mechanic groups is completed, is American going to pay the same wages to it''s mechanics that Southwest does? So you see after all of the years of the TWU structure, that has produced the "I got mine brother", I would attempt to get mine. Remember that while you continualy raise the question about cost of living, TULE has the lowest mechanic wages in the company. There are not any SRP/OSM mechanics on the line.

So how do we fix the structure that has produced the Roll Call vote?

 

[RV4]

And Bob is doing a fine job of changing that which with so many words, he points out is the problem, while cashing the TWU monthly Officer Check, and while sworn to an oath of allegiance

How is that "change from within" coming utlizing those seperate Locals?

Get out those snake buttons, threaten the company and the TWU and save us will ya?

Bob, I notice you are an expert and detailing the problems in Labor, TWU, AA, Politics, and the Airline Industry. But for some reason, I never see you promoting any solutions with the same passion?

 

[Hopeful]

AAMECH:

Let''s do a comparison!

In NY:

I pay $7600.00 a year in property taxes. I have a 1200 sq ft home on a 60 X 100 lot.

I pay $2800.00 per year for a 1991 Nissan sentra and 1999 Nissan Pathfinder in insurance premiums.


Give me your numbers.

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 3/23/2003 9:24:38 AM Buck wrote:

The seperation of TULE from the rest of the system to become like Southwest? Are they not beginning to perform their own heavy maintenance? If a seperation of the line mechanics from the base maintenance is called for, I for one would excercise my seniority and displace a line mechanic. In fact I would most likely displace a DFW mechnic to maintain my comparable cost of living. Once the seperation of the two different mechanic groups is completed, is American going to pay the same wages to it''s mechanics that Southwest does? So you see after all of the years of the TWU structure, that has produced the "I got mine brother", I would attempt to get mine. Remember that while you continualy raise the question about cost of living, TULE has the lowest mechanic wages in the company. There are not any SRP/OSM mechanics on the line.

So how do we fix the structure that has produced the Roll Call vote?

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Well I don’t see the company getting rid of Overhaul. They have a lot on meney invested there. As the economies of scale make in house OH a better business decision SWA is going more and more that way. This line about sending out all the OH is supposedly based upon cost savings. If more and more airlines outsource, thereby idling their own facilities the price that those facilities charge will go up and the airline becomes dependant on the vendor’s schedule. The company loses the ability to schedule its checks in the most efficient manner possible. The fact that we have OSMs makes it possible not only that AA can do the work cheaper than its competitors but probably comparable to vendors.
Line guys don’t have a problem with OH. We have a problem with Tulsa. We do not like the fact that this one local, that happens to be located in a very cheap area of the country sets the terms of our contract. They set the terms based upon the cost of living in Tulsa. Its one thing if Tulsa can vote in a contract because they have the numbers, that’s Democracy, its another when they even control what gets voted on without the other locals having real input, that’s tyranny. I can accept the fact that the actual vote count went one way or the other, however to assume that all 7000 members are in agreement with the president is not justified. Even if Tulsa does not use the Roll Call, its still wrong that they have it.
There should be a differential between Tulsa and the line. The working conditions are different and the cost of living is different. In the NY area a "starter" home will set you back at least $350,000. What would a 1200 sq/ft home on a 60X100 lot cost in Tulsa? While there is a Line differential OH gets it if they work Sat or Sun. The line mechanic who has Sat or Sun off is considered to have weekends off. It’s considered a premium slot. I don’t blame Tulsa for acting in its best interests. We all are acting in our best interests. However when one local has the power not only to accept or reject what comes from the table but what gets put on it to begin with we have a problem. Tulsa''s ability to act in their interest overrides everybody elses ability. Under these conditions, from a line mechanics perspective, we have to consider whether or not the strength in numbers that being affiliated with Tulsa provides is a benefit or a liability. As it is now, and has been for some time, Tulsa is a liability. We do not consider them an asset in any way. So when the company cites the fact that AA has overhaul and SWA does not it only stings that much more. Surely the company is aware of the wedge between the two groups and it plays upon it. While Tulsa sits there with its big stick, the company continues to drive that wedge a little deeper, with Tulsa unwittingly helping. If the company came back and said “We will keep line maint at SWAs rates but our OH has to compete with Timco so we are spinning those assets off to form a new company AMR Overhaul Services†how should the line react? Most of the line guys would feel as if a great burden has been lifted. The TWU would probably fight it but why would the line guys want to resist? Would Fleet walk away from their $90,000/yr (with OT) jobs? Now line mechanics would have control over their contract, which would be more influenced by those living in high cost areas.
Right now the line had made it clear. Even the junior guys who are going to be directly affected. They say "layoff as needed but do not cut the rates". More than likely Tulsa is going to force through cuts in pay. They can afford to. Its cheap to live there and if their members are laid off, where will they go? So once again, just like all the times before our rates will be determined by conditions in Tulsa.
The roll call vote could be fixed by a member from Tulsa making a motion that at membership meeting directing the President at the next Presidents Council to make a motion to change the bylaws and eliminate the Roll Call provision. This would make the Presidents council a meeting of equals.
How do we fix the structure that produced the Roll call vote? Well there are two ways. One, bring reform on the Constitutional level, which will take time since that opportunity only comes once every 4 years, just as it took time to get this way. Or two, we can change unions. As long as both options are available the likelihood that the desired change will take place is increased. If either option disappears then the likelihood of change disappears. There is no doubt that the majority on the line finds the current structure unacceptable. They support separation within the TWU and/or separation from the TWU. What they seek is greater control over their careers. Separation has not had the same appeal in Tulsa because they have control, and the current structure apparently meets their needs, that’s partially why they reject AMFA. The fact that RTW and ultra right wing zealots have control of the drive doesn’t help either. ( I know “RTW doesn’t have no effect on us†but with the stroke of a pen it could).


RV4;
What''s the matter Dave?

 

[AAmech]

Sorry but Tulsa is not some Super cheap place to live anymore. I''m sure there are some bargains if you want to live in the Ghetto or move 50+ miles into the country, but then see what type of education your kids get! If you want to live in a decent (not luxurious) neighborhood with a decent school district the cost of living becomes very Average. Not bargain basement. And your argument for more money for line maint does not go very far with me because I''m not from Tul. Most people I work with here arn''t either. We packed up our families at great expence and hassel and moved to this VERY SLOW part of the country. We sacraficed and left the amenities of the bigger more exciting cities we lived in to come here. I for one can''t see subsidizing your decision to live in a much more vibrant and exciting place. If anything we in TUL should recive some sort of extra compensation for having to LIVE HERE!

 

[Buck]

<blockquote>----------------
On 3/24/2003 9:07:24 AM Hopeful wrote:
AAMECH:
Let''s do a comparison!
In NY:
I pay $7600.00 a year in property taxes. I have a 1200 sq ft home on a 60 X 100 lot.
I pay $2800.00 per year for a 1991 Nissan sentra and 1999 Nissan Pathfinder in insurance premiums.

Give me your numbers.
----------------</blockquote>
Your method of transportation has no relevance. Tulsa does not even have trains.
I believe that the call for greater compensation for where you live is only going to happen if supply and demand come to bear. When A&P mechanics refuse to take employment in an area where the cost of living is grossly higher, then the company will do what it needs to do.

The contract touches on this subject, under Art. 4

(e) Flexible Starting Rates

(1) In the event that the Company, in its sole discretion, finds that any or all of its starting pay rates (Step 1) as specified in Article 4(B), are non competitive with local market starting rates for similarly situated jobs, the Company may hire applicants in any classification at any station/base/location at rates of pay higher (Step 2 through the maximum hourly rate in the applicable pay scale) than those starting rates specified in Article 4(B). As market conditions change, the Company may, in its sole discretion, change its designated starting rate. Such designated starting rate may be higher or lower than previous designated starting rates; however, such starting rate may not be lower than Step 1 nor higher than the maximum hourly rate in the applicable pay scale.


It would seem that when negotiated, that the union and the company prevented the maximum contract rate from being exceeded. Blaming your compensation on the cost of living alone is lame at best.

 

[AAmech]

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On 3/24/2003 9:07:24 AM Hopeful wrote:

AAMECH:

Let's do a comparison!

In NY:

I pay $7600.00 a year in property taxes. I have a 1200 sq ft home on a 60 X 100 lot.

I pay $2800.00 per year for a 1991 Nissan sentra and 1999 Nissan Pathfinder in insurance premiums.


Give me your numbers.

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Well Hopefull, Compare this to life in NY.

Stampedes when we got our first "Super Target"
Same as above when we got a "Krispy Kream" Doughnut shop!
12hr drive to the nearest beach.
Shoddy Bus Service for public transport. NO TRAINS!!
Terrible roads we must use since there is no public trans.
No access to Amtrack.
Excessive Country Music
Crummy Library system.
Public schools have some of lowest funding in Nation.
Ho-hum universty system.(except for Football and Basketball)
One of the highest poverty levels in Nation.

I'd like a little extra pay please!!

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 3/24/2003 2:43:21 PM AAmech wrote:

Well Hopefull, Compare this to life in NY.

Stampedes when we got our first "Super Target"
Same as above when we got a "Krispy Kream" Doughnut shop!
12hr drive to the nearest beach.
Shoddy Bus Service for public transport. NO TRAINS!!
Terrible roads we must use since there is no public trans.
No access to Amtrack.
Excessive Country Music
Crummy Library system.
Public schools have some of lowest funding in Nation.
Ho-hum universty system.(except for Football and Basketball)
One of the highest poverty levels in Nation.

I''d like a little extra pay please!!



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Maybe he has a point!

 

[Hopeful]

Well, I guess you get what you pay for!

 

[LGA Fleet Service]

This is the perfect environment for an airline to exit Chapter 11 isn't it?


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