Ual Mec Responds

[Skyhungry]

Makes you wonder why the PBGC decided to announce their intentions when they did. :angry:


UAL MEC Office 9550 W. Higgins Road
Suite 1000
Rosemont, IL 60018 847-292-1700


With a special MEC Update for Thursday, December 30, 2004, this
is MEC Communications Chairman Steve Derebey.

This morning in major newspapers across the country, the Pension
Benefit Guarantee Corporation (PBGC) placed advertisements
directed toward "All Participants, Retirees and Beneficiaries of
the United Airlines Pilot Defined Benefit Pension Plan."

The ad stated the following: "The PBGC, a United States
government agency, has determined under provisions of the
Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) that the
above pension plan must terminate and that the PBGC should become
statutory trustee of the pension plan. PBGC has determined that
the company's sponsorship of the pension plan will end on
December 30, 2004. As of that date, participants cannot earn
additional benefits under the plan. PBGC will seek to take over
the plan's assets and assume responsibility for paying benefits.
In the interim, UAL Corp. remains responsible for payment of plan
benefits."

In reaction to today's announcement by the PBGC, the United MEC
released the following statement:

Release #04.UAL6
December 30, 2004

Statement by the United Master Executive Council, Air Line Pilots
Association Regarding Today's Action by The Pension Benefit
Guarantee Corporation

"We deplore the PBGC's ill-timed attempt to retaliate against the
United pilot group in the United bankruptcy proceeding.

ALPA's tentative agreement with United does not permit the
termination of the pilot pension plan without a final judicial
determination that pension termination is necessary for the
Company to emerge from bankruptcy or at any point prior to May 1,
2005. As the PBGC is well aware, there are no grounds for the
termination of the pilot pension plan.

ALPA will vigorously oppose any effort by the PBGC to take over
the plan before May 1, 2005 or to single out the pilot group for
punitive and vindictive treatment in the United bankruptcy.
Under the terms of the tentative pilot agreement, the Company has
also agreed to oppose any attempt to terminate the pilot pension
plan prior to May 1, 2005.

In addition, the tentative pilot agreement requires United to
continue the pilot pension plan if any other United employee
group maintains a defined benefit pension program following the
bankruptcy. We will vigorously enforce that right against the
PBGC or any other party that seeks to single out the pilot group
for unfair treatment in the bankruptcy proceeding.

We are equally concerned about the timing of the PBGC action in
the midst of a pilot membership vote over the tentative pilot
agreement. We question whether the PBGC's action may be designed
to confuse the pilot group, undermine the membership ratification
process and deprive the pilots of the benefits and protections of
the tentative agreement. If so, today's action is an outrageous
ploy by the PBGC to harm the very employee interests that the
agency is sworn to protect.

The pilots of United Airlines are critical to the reorganization
of this Company and, by far have sacrificed the most to save the
airline. We demand to be recognized and compensated for our
unique contributions, and we will take every lawful action
necessary to protect the interests of the United pilots against
the PBGC or any other party in this proceeding."

:unsure:

 

[737nCH11]

They responded because they want to make sure this piece of crap passes. BTW, my prediction is that it will pass by 70%.

 

[Dizel8]

Since UAL has already stopped funding the plan, with no desire shown to bring it current, seen from a PBGC perpspective, the takeover date makes sense.

 

[Hopeful]

Screw all other workers unless you're a pilot!



SCREW EM!

 

[csrgal]

The pilots of United Airlines are critical to the reorganization
of this Company and, by far have sacrificed the most to save the
airline.

They forgot to add the pilots were a "critical" part of our downfall. You sacrificed the most because you "critical" pilots held the company and customers hostage for over 4 months. While I agree that pilots deserve compensation that reflects the amount of training, the pilots are giving nothing more than any other group. Please don't respond with we took a bigger paycut because you also received a bigger raise. After nearly 5 years, I can finally speak to a pilot without wanting to prepare a ball of spit for their face. :down:

 

[aafsc]

The pilots of United Airlines are critical to the reorganization
of this Company and, by far have sacrificed the most to save the
airline.

They forgot to add the pilots were a "critical" part of our downfall. You sacrificed the most because you "critical" pilots held the company and customers hostage for over 4 months. While I agree that pilots deserve compensation that reflects the amount of training, the pilots are giving nothing more than any other group. Please don't respond with we took a bigger paycut because you also received a bigger raise. After nearly 5 years, I can finally speak to a pilot without wanting to prepare a ball of spit for their face. :down:

[post="234327"][/post]​

Good post. In the summer of 2000, the pilots had UAL, the other employees, and the passengers by the throat. They were given what they demanded (30%+ raises after snapback). Now UAL and the other employees have them by the throat because if UA fails then they will have a difficult time finding another job making what they are making. It will be very interesting to see how low the pilots will go to save UAL and their positions. But the other employees have nothing to lose because they can more easily find a job paying what UA wants to cut them down to.

 

[ualdriver]

"Good post. In the summer of 2000, the pilots had UAL, the other employees, and the passengers by the throat....... "

Again, two hypocritical posts. How can a member of the AFA, who is threatening, let me use your buddy's words, "to hold the company and customers hostage" if any contract in the AFA coven is abrogated, complain about the Summer of 2000? Please explain this to me, because I really can't see past the irony. The must exaggerated Summer of 2000 was a speed bump in UAL history's, a successful CHAOS campaign in mid January will likely be the end of UAL as we know it. Hmmm......Any hypocrisy here? Nah.


"Now UAL and the other employees have them by the throat because if UA fails then they will have a difficult time finding another job making what they are making. It will be very interesting to see how low the pilots will go to save UAL and their positions. But the other employees have nothing to lose because they can more easily find a job paying what UA wants to cut them down to."

I'm a person with a very technical skill and education. So are my peers. Unless the world stops flying airplanes, I will always make a very comfortable salary and will have enough in the bank account to survive the industry's ups and downs and a layoff/liquidation here or there, including this one. If my peers were smart with their finances, so would they. Any pleasure you would get from seeing a pilot on the street would be very short lived for most. However, I would imagine starting flight attendant pay at JetBlue or AirTran isn't what you're earning now either? So instead of talking tough on the forum, I expect you to VOLUNTEER for the first CHAOS activity at your airline. I'm ready! Are you? Burn the house down!

CSR gal, please attach a dollar figure to what the Summer of 2000 cost us vs. Sept 11, the proliferation of low cost carriers, the failed acquisition of US Air, the stock buy back, and the dividend pay out. Also, please attach a dollar value to the public threats of CHAOS the AFA has been making in the media since November. Please feel free to quote public company financials and SEC statements as you make your argument. Maybe you and the other brainless wonder can find your way to the UAL investor relations page to research your mornoic hypothesis instead of parroting "what's popular" and enlighten us all on this topic. I'll be anxiously awaiting, but I won't hold my breath.

 

[aafsc]

"Good post. In the summer of 2000, the pilots had UAL, the other employees, and the passengers by the throat....... "

Again, two hypocritical posts. How can a member of the AFA, who is threatening, let me use your buddy's words, "to hold the company and customers hostage" if any contract in the AFA coven is abrogated, complain about the Summer of 2000? Please explain this to me, because I really can't see past the irony. The must exaggerated Summer of 2000 was a speed bump in UAL history's, a successful CHAOS campaign in mid January will likely be the end of UAL as we know it. Hmmm......Any hypocrisy here? Nah.
"Now UAL and the other employees have them by the throat because if UA fails then they will have a difficult time finding another job making what they are making. It will be very interesting to see how low the pilots will go to save UAL and their positions. But the other employees have nothing to lose because they can more easily find a job paying what UA wants to cut them down to."

I'm a person with a very technical skill and education. Unless the world stops flying airplanes, I will always make a very comfortable salary and will have enough in the bank account to survive the industry's ups and downs and a layoff/liquidation here or there, including this one. So instead of talking tough on the forum, I expect you to VOLUNTEER for the first CHAOS activity at your airline. I'm ready! Are you? Burn the house down!

CSR gal, please attach a dollar figure to what the Summer of 2000 cost us vs. Sept 11, the proliferation of low cost carriers, the failed acquisition of US Air, the stock buy back, and the dividend pay out. Also, please attach a dollar value to the public threats of CHAOS the AFA has been making in the media since November. Please feel free to quote public company financials and SEC statements as you make your argument. Maybe you and the other brainless wonder can find your way to the UAL investor relations page to research your mornoic hypothesis instead of parroting "what's popular" and enlighten us all on this topic. I'll be anxiously awaiting, but I won't hold my breath.

[post="234348"][/post]​

I am not a flight attendant. But the difference between that pilot "speedbump" in 2000 ( which cost UA $750 million and immeasurable ill will from customers), and the present threat of flight attendant CHAOS lies in the fact that the pilots demanded ( and received) about 35% on top of snapback (making them by far the highest compensated pilots in the industry) whereas now the flight attendants are fighting to prevent their ENTIRE CONTRACT from being eliminated.

Yes, you do have a very technical skill and education. But the pilots at AirTran and Jetblue do the same thing you do and are and always have been paid way less. If UA fails I'm sure you could get a flying job at one of these two carriers. You pilots are always saying how ramp and maintanence can be replaced by outsourcing to the cheapest bidder, well the pilots at Airtran and Jetblue prove there are people willing and able to do your technical job for much much less (especially with jetblues new E-190 payscale). As I said earlier, non-pilot airline employees have nothing to lose when the airlines decimate their wage scales. It was stated by a UA mechnanic that a lot of the "talent" (whats left of it) is leaving for other jobs. And that many good employees (not the slackers) are leaving the airlines. Just look at USAir. Although there are still a lot of good employees there, a lot have found better jobs that pay more without all the BS. (See the US board).

You refered to me as a "brainless wonder". Well, it must not take much to fly an airplane because I have a masters degree and am a private pilot with instrument rating.

By the way, do you also fly an A320?

 

[Borescope]

Well said AAFCS!!! Tthe pilots are the first ones to point out that they made the deal and everyone else was free to cut their's. Then when the PBGC deceides that it will be cheaper for them to cut there losses and take over the plan, the pilots cry foul. They must have figured that the PBGC would fight the deal, thus allowing them to accrue benifits through to May 1. Welcome to the real world pilots. What goes around comes around, LMAO

 

[ualdriver]

You have a Master's Degree and you post all that crap, including all those older posts we've discussed in the past? Incredible.

Well, I guess you'll have to explain to me how the AFA is fighting to have their "entire contract" elimated, as I only have a bachelor's degree and after having read their first give back and now the second that is on the table, I don't see how they're losing their "entire contract." I see maybe a couple of 10% paycuts and lots of work rules, but then again, I've seen 54% and lots of work rules too. Does that mean my entire contract is gone too?

We weren't "by far" the highest paid pilots in the industry. We were just above the "Delta dot" if you remember correctly. We were the largest airline in the world surfing on billions of dollars of profits. Every employee group on the property should have been the "highest paid" in the industry. We had the unity and the balls to negotiate the deal we deserved. ALPA doesn't negotiate for the other employee groups. If they weren't happy with their deals, they could have taken it up with their respective unions instead of complaining about it on a forum.

Where did you come up with 750M? Doubtful, but would love to see where you get that number from. Please don't tell me you read it in a newspaper, either. I'll gag.

"Yes, you do have a very technical skill and education. But the pilots at AirTran and Jetblue do the same thing you do and are and always have been paid way less....... And that many good employees (not the slackers) are leaving the airlines. Just look at USAir."

Again, more non-sense stuff from a person who is supposedly highly educated. The pilots at MANY other carriers do the same job I do and are paid way less. Or used to be paid way less anyway, now they make more. There's probably people that will do your job for less than what you make as well. What's the point? That I'll probably make more money long term if I start over at another carrier? Well that's a pretty good darn point! And he11, you can find people who would be airline pilots for free! I think someone should start an airline with that premise!

"You pilots are saying how ramp and maintenance can be replaced by oursourcing to the cheapest bidder?"

Who is "you pilots?" Why in his right mind would ANY pilot want his aircraft maintained by some schlep in Mexico who was the "lowest bidder" when we already have great mechanics here? Who exactly are you talking about?


"As I said earlier, non-pilot airline employees have nothing to lose when the airlines decimate their wage scales."

This is my favorite statement. If you're talking about rampers and flight attendants, you're probably right. I guess I should have forgone the college education, flight training, and years of experience buidling so that I too, would have nothing to lose when I lost the job that requires no formal education or vocational training. What was I thinking? Those guys/gals have it made as they'll never have anything to lose as their wages are decimated. Hey AFA and IAM members! AAFSC says you have nothing to lose! Funny.

 

[aafsc]

You have a Master's Degree and you post all that crap, including all those older posts we've discussed in the past? Incredible.

Well, I guess you'll have to explain to me how the AFA is fighting to have their "entire contract" elimated, as I only have a bachelor's degree and after having read their first give back and now the second that is on the table, I don't see how they're losing their "entire contract." I see maybe a couple of 10% paycuts and lots of work rules, but then again, I've seen 54% and lots of work rules too. Does that mean my entire contract is gone too?

We weren't "by far" the highest paid pilots in the industry. We were just above the "Delta dot" if you remember correctly. We were the largest airline in the world surfing on billions of dollars of profits. Every employee group on the property should have been the "highest paid" in the industry. We had the unity and the balls to negotiate the deal we deserved. ALPA doesn't negotiate for the other employee groups. If they weren't happy with their deals, they could have taken it up with their respective unions instead of complaining about it on a forum.

Where did you come up with 750M? Doubtful, but would love to see where you get that number from. Please don't tell me you read it in a newspaper, either. I'll gag.

"Yes, you do have a very technical skill and education. But the pilots at AirTran and Jetblue do the same thing you do and are and always have been paid way less....... And that many good employees (not the slackers) are leaving the airlines. Just look at USAir."

Again, more non-sense stuff from a person who is supposedly highly educated. The pilots at MANY other carriers do the same job I do and are paid way less. Or used to be paid way less anyway, now they make more. There's probably people that will do your job for less than what you make as well. What's the point? That I'll probably make more money long term if I start over at another carrier? Well that's a pretty good darn point! And he11, you can find people who would be airline pilots for free! I think someone should start an airline with that premise!

"You pilots are saying how ramp and maintenance can be replaced by oursourcing to the cheapest bidder?"

Who is "you pilots?" Why in his right mind would ANY pilot want his aircraft maintained by some schlep in Mexico who was the "lowest bidder" when we already have great mechanics here? Who exactly are you talking about?
"As I said earlier, non-pilot airline employees have nothing to lose when the airlines decimate their wage scales."

This is my favorite statement. If you're talking about rampers and flight attendants, you're probably right. I guess I should have forgone the college education, flight training, and years of experience buidling so that I too, would have nothing to lose when I lost the job that requires no formal education or vocational training. What was I thinking? Those guys/gals have it made as they'll never have anything to lose as their wages are decimated. Hey AFA and IAM members! AAFSC says you have nothing to lose! Funny.

[post="234363"][/post]​

If any group has their contract "abrogated" by the bankruptcy judge, does this not mean it is thrown out in it's entirety and replaced by whatever the company sees fit? Of course, the company usually only changes the parts it sees fit. The bankruptcy code was amended after CO's first bankruptcy under Lorenzo. There are 9 steps that must be follwed before the company can abrogate, so by law there has to be negotations. If an agreement is reached, fine. If not, both sides can implement self help (company can impose and union can strike, CHAOS or whatever) after judge abrogates.

If I remember correctly, after the UA pilots got their contract, the slogan at Delta was UA+1%. ALPA has every right to get the best deal for it's pilots, that is it's job. But the combination of the snapback+cost of summer 2000+the raises from the new contract+911+low cost carriers= a huge amount of cash drain which caused UA to file. Now add to that the high cost of fuel and lower yields and anyone can see why UA is in bad shape. It is AFA's. the IAM, and AMFA's responsibility to see that they can get a livable compensation package for their members

You asked where I got the $750 million figure from. I got it from UAL's 2000 annual report. It stated that UA's revenues and expenses were affected by between $700-$750 million due to a "labor action", ATC and weather. AA is about the same size as UA and both have large hubs in ORD. I scanned AA's annual report for 2000 and found no loss atttibuted to weather or ATC. So most of the $700-$750 million loss for UA was indeed from the 4 month summer slowdown.

People will do my job for less, and are doing it now. As for airline pilots working for free, I thought they basically did that at some of the commuters.

Most of the pilots at the majors have the same mentality as the US Airways management team. And that is the overpaid mechanics and rampers are the cause of our problems. Management thinks if they outsource these functions to the lowest bidder, profits will explode and they can get very large bonuses. The pilot mentality says the same, outsource to the lowest bidder and we can restore our salaries and pensions beyond pre 9/11 levels. From what I have read, jetblue outsources some of it's heavy maintanence to El SAlvador (hardly a high tech country) and MOST pilots, especially USA320 pilot, enthusiatically suppport this.

I never said that a flight attendant or ramper should make what you make or that you should make what they make. You SHOULD make considerably more but my problem is when a ramper or F/a with 20 or 25 years at an airline who makes $40,000 ( an average living) is told by management and pilots who still make around six figures that they have to accept 40%-50% paycuts with loss of retirement benefits (pension and healthcare which IS deferred compensation) shows a lack of understanding at best. After 25 years, going from $40,000 a year to $22,000 a year with no retirement or retiree health care and being blamed for all the companies problems; yes I would say they have nothing to lose.

 

[ualdriver]

I never said that a flight attendant or ramper should make what you make or that you should make what they make. You SHOULD make considerably more but my problem is when a ramper or F/a with 20 or 25 years at an airline who makes $40,000 ( an average living) is told by management and pilots who still make around six figures that they have to accept 40%-50% paycuts with loss of retirement benefits (pension and healthcare which IS deferred compensation) shows a lack of understanding at best. After 25 years, going from $40,000 a year to $22,000 a year with no retirement or retiree health care and being blamed for all the companies problems; yes I would say they have nothing to lose.

Actually, you're the one with the lack of understanding concerning the give backs so far. I guess you're going to have to explain to me again (please use the current TA's as a guide as well as last rounds TA's) where any employee group EXCEPT the pilot group is going to see their hourly wages go down by 50%?

"After 25 years, going from $40,000 a year to $22,000 a year with no retirement or retiree health care and being blamed for all the companies problems; yes I would say they have nothing to lose."

Huge exaggeration on your part. If anyone is going from $40K to $22K a year, it's not an hourly employee in IAM, AMFA, or the AFA. No one's full time hourly rate is going down 55%. Except maybe some ALPA members.

Try around 20%-25% TOAL, including both give backs for most of these guys. How much of their pensions are any of these groups going to lose, if anything? What, 20% max? Less with the AFA? And ALPA is not telling ANYONE how much of a cut they have to take. They got a buckedt placed in front of them, just like us. They can fill it, or they can strike. Their choice, not ALPA's. And if they don't like someone who makes 6 figures telling them they need to take a pay cut, they can use their unemployment benefits to pursue a PROFESSION that requires long term personal and financial sacrifice (like I did) that will command the 6 figure salary they envy so much instead of complaining about my salary on the forum.

There are 9 steps that must be follwed before the company can abrogate, so by law there has to be negotations. If an agreement is reached, fine. If not, both sides can implement self help (company can impose and union can strike, CHAOS or whatever) after judge abrogates.

Maybe. Maybe not. There's no consensus on that particular subject. But if a union strikes and they end up being on the wrong side of that lawsuit, that union will be fined into financial oblivion.

"You asked where I got the $750 million figure from. I got it from UAL's 2000 annual report. It stated that UA's revenues and expenses were affected by between $700-$750 million due to a "labor action", ATC and weather. AA is about the same size as UA and both have large hubs in ORD. I scanned AA's annual report for 2000 and found no loss atttibuted to weather or ATC. So most of the $700-$750 million loss for UA was indeed from the 4 month summer slowdown."

Wow, someone actually cracked upon the UAL 2000 filing to get some facts for a change. Were you flying during the summer of 2000? I was. Know what the arrival rate for ORD is on a GOOD day? What maybe 80-90 a/c per hour with the wind blowing in the right direction? Know how many pounds of crap all the airlines (including UA and AA) tried to shove into that 5 pound bag? About 10 pounds or so. How about LAX? SFO? IAD? Remember the government getting real annoyed at ALL the airlines? Remember ALPA screaming, jumping up and down telling our management that we were WAY undestaffed with pilots? I do. We were. I got news for you. That "labor action" was a fig leaf for that parituclar management team. Clue #1: "four month slowdown" There definitely was not a slowdown for that long. No way. No doubt the summer of 2000 was responsible for the portion of that 700M. A small portion. Understaffing, poor hub weather (remember how bad the TRW's were that year? Bad.) all contributed. To blame just the pilot group for that mess that summer was ridiculous.

"Most of the pilots at the majors have the same mentality as the US Airways management team. And that is the overpaid mechanics and rampers are the cause of our problems. Management thinks if they outsource these functions to the lowest bidder, profits will explode and they can get very large bonuses. The pilot mentality says the same, outsource to the lowest bidder and we can restore our salaries and pensions beyond pre 9/11 levels. From what I have read, jetblue outsources some of it's heavy maintanence to El SAlvador (hardly a high tech country) and MOST pilots, especially USA320 pilot, enthusiatically suppport this."

If it costs less to do a particular job when it is outsourced, all else being equal, then profits do go up. So management is probably right if that is their thought process. My job has been outsourced since around 1996, and no doubt that has contributed to the bottom line. But to assume that the pilot group "mentaility" is outsource everyone else's job so that our pay can go up is inane. Almost as inane as ALPA wanting everyone elses' pensions to be cancelled. Which pilots are you talking to? The ones I talk to don't talk like that at all. In fact, I would say our pilot group is VERY concerned about the possibility of outsourcing, particularly our maintenance. I know I am. I doubt your sources are UAL pilots.

 

[aafsc]

Reagrding ALPA's stance on maintanence outsourcing, Duane Worthe, ALPA's national president, reportedly sat right next to Robert Crandall in front of a congressional committee and basically said he sees no problem with outsourcing aircraft maintanence.

 

[WorldTraveler]

aafsc,
be nice to the old driver. He and his buds thought that had managed to protect themselves when all of a sudden they woke up and found that it was all a fantasy. 2005 will be their nightmare played out in living color.

As I said several days ago, the PBGC would fight and they did. The PBGC is not a fairy godmother. It doesn't work to snap one's little fingers and expect her to clean up the mess that has been created after years of mismanagement and labor-management conflict.

UAL's future looks cloudier than ever. For 3 1/2 years they've been expecting to the American taxpayer to bail them out in one form or another. Alas, the vote is in and it is unanimous: we the people are not interested in bailing out a company that cannot compete and which continues to make one misstep after another.

2005 is now upon us. We will finally begin to see the restructuring and consolidation that experts predicted 25 years ago and which has been blocked for many of those years by the very government which is now willing to let market forces do their thing. The letter U will be eliminated from the US airline alphabet.

You've had a great run, United Airlines, but the end is in sight and you aren't heading for the winners circle. The airline industry will now be run by companies that recognize that competition is a good thing, airlines are service businesses, and employees are the greatest assets. All those juicy routes will find homes in other airlines' networks.

Don't worry, we'll give you your little pension check, driver. The clock is about ready to strike 12 and you know what happens then....

 

[student]

"Huge exaggeration on your part. If anyone is going from $40K to $22K a year, it's not an hourly employee in IAM, AMFA, or the AFA. No one's full time hourly rate is going down 55%. Except maybe some ALPA members"

Unlimited part-time. Most IAM Full-time will be surplussed to Part-time. 40 hours to 20 hours. That's 50% Plus 9-14% pay cut. We are looking at 59%. Some may be cut to 16 hrs.