U and UA: The Domino Effect is commencing!
- Thread starter PITbull
- Start date
OP
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #17
Orphan,
I posted this same "Post" on the UA board. If you can, write something on that post for those folks. Your words of wisdom are much more succinct than mine.
I am feeling so very bad on what they are about to endure...rest of the industry as well.
I posted this same "Post" on the UA board. If you can, write something on that post for those folks. Your words of wisdom are much more succinct than mine.
I am feeling so very bad on what they are about to endure...rest of the industry as well.
airlineorphan
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
- 380
- 0
Thanks, PITbull!
We all put different pieces of the puzzle together. It's part of what solidarity and unions are all about! By ourselves we are weak. When we reach out to each other we are strong and can surmount any adversity, even liquiDave!
And let me be clear, you articulate things succinctly and clearly and I always look forward to your posts, PITbull!
-Airlineorphan
We all put different pieces of the puzzle together. It's part of what solidarity and unions are all about! By ourselves we are weak. When we reach out to each other we are strong and can surmount any adversity, even liquiDave!
And let me be clear, you articulate things succinctly and clearly and I always look forward to your posts, PITbull!
-Airlineorphan
ClueByFour
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,566
- 37
[blockquote]
----------------
Pittsburgh base is the only base where f/a's voted down the concessions (liquidation-lightning-round this winter) and PITbull is one of those who has made a strong case for not lowering the bar here at U. PITbull has indeed been shining a light of warning for everyone who does the work in the airline industry.
----------------
[/blockquote]
No suprise. Unfortunately, the entitlement attitude around here killed the Steel industry a few years back--why would the local airline union politicos want to try something different?
There are no black helicopters. There is no vast conspiracy. The entire industry is on life support. The pricing and revenue model has changed. Permanently.
"Standing tall" and "keeping the bar from being lowered" would have resulted in a couple of thousand people "at the next job fair at Robert Morris." Is is unfortunate? Yep.
Is thinking otherwise unrealistic? Absolutely.
----------------
Pittsburgh base is the only base where f/a's voted down the concessions (liquidation-lightning-round this winter) and PITbull is one of those who has made a strong case for not lowering the bar here at U. PITbull has indeed been shining a light of warning for everyone who does the work in the airline industry.
----------------
[/blockquote]
No suprise. Unfortunately, the entitlement attitude around here killed the Steel industry a few years back--why would the local airline union politicos want to try something different?
There are no black helicopters. There is no vast conspiracy. The entire industry is on life support. The pricing and revenue model has changed. Permanently.
"Standing tall" and "keeping the bar from being lowered" would have resulted in a couple of thousand people "at the next job fair at Robert Morris." Is is unfortunate? Yep.
Is thinking otherwise unrealistic? Absolutely.
I like to welcome all of you to the future, the regional airline industry we been here a long time. Represented by the same unions that represent the majors, too bad there was such a extreme difference in pay over the years. We learned to get by, barely. Too bad it took such a long time for you folks to realize this. Welcome aboard
OP
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #21
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/10/2003 12:35:04 AM ClueByFour wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
Pittsburgh base is the only base where f/a's voted down the concessions (liquidation-lightning-round this winter) and PITbull is one of those who has made a strong case for not lowering the bar here at U. PITbull has indeed been shining a light of warning for everyone who does the work in the airline industry.
----------------
[/blockquote]
No suprise. Unfortunately, the entitlement attitude around here killed the Steel industry a few years back--why would the local airline union politicos want to try something different?
There are no black helicopters. There is no vast conspiracy. The entire industry is on life support. The pricing and revenue model has changed. Permanently.
"Standing tall" and "keeping the bar from being lowered" would have resulted in a couple of thousand people "at the next job fair at Robert Morris." Is is unfortunate? Yep.
Is thinking otherwise unrealistic? Absolutely.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Clue,
If Labor makes less money and barely surviving, how does that help you or society in general. If middle America can not make enough of a wage to pay for their and their families medical expenses, provide food on the table, put a roof over their heads, educate their families, and save for their retirement, who do you think will have to provide it??? The tax payer. And if you think NOT; then rest assured CRIME RATE WILL BE INCREASING MUCH WORSE THAN IT IS TODAY! If folks can't survive, they do whatever is necessary to provide for their families.
You think about it.
I believe folks should strive for a voice in the workplace and make every effort to create balance. Too Socialistic for you?
By the way, my parents immigrated here and they had a restaurant for 40 years. They had employees, same folks worked for them for 20 years at a time. When you pay a decent wage, and are fair with your employees, you get loyalty, and dedication. That's what I learned.
Get real and "snap out of it".
[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/5.gif']
----------------
On 2/10/2003 12:35:04 AM ClueByFour wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
Pittsburgh base is the only base where f/a's voted down the concessions (liquidation-lightning-round this winter) and PITbull is one of those who has made a strong case for not lowering the bar here at U. PITbull has indeed been shining a light of warning for everyone who does the work in the airline industry.
----------------
[/blockquote]
No suprise. Unfortunately, the entitlement attitude around here killed the Steel industry a few years back--why would the local airline union politicos want to try something different?
There are no black helicopters. There is no vast conspiracy. The entire industry is on life support. The pricing and revenue model has changed. Permanently.
"Standing tall" and "keeping the bar from being lowered" would have resulted in a couple of thousand people "at the next job fair at Robert Morris." Is is unfortunate? Yep.
Is thinking otherwise unrealistic? Absolutely.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Clue,
If Labor makes less money and barely surviving, how does that help you or society in general. If middle America can not make enough of a wage to pay for their and their families medical expenses, provide food on the table, put a roof over their heads, educate their families, and save for their retirement, who do you think will have to provide it??? The tax payer. And if you think NOT; then rest assured CRIME RATE WILL BE INCREASING MUCH WORSE THAN IT IS TODAY! If folks can't survive, they do whatever is necessary to provide for their families.
You think about it.
I believe folks should strive for a voice in the workplace and make every effort to create balance. Too Socialistic for you?
By the way, my parents immigrated here and they had a restaurant for 40 years. They had employees, same folks worked for them for 20 years at a time. When you pay a decent wage, and are fair with your employees, you get loyalty, and dedication. That's what I learned.
Get real and "snap out of it".
[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/5.gif']
airlineorphan
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
- 380
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/10/2003 12:35:04 AM ClueByFour wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
Pittsburgh base is the only base where f/a's voted down the concessions (liquidation-lightning-round this winter) and PITbull is one of those who has made a strong case for not lowering the bar here at U. PITbull has indeed been shining a light of warning for everyone who does the work in the airline industry.
----------------
[/blockquote]
No suprise. Unfortunately, the entitlement attitude around here killed the Steel industry a few years back--why would the local airline union politicos want to try something different?
There are no black helicopters. There is no vast conspiracy. The entire industry is on life support. The pricing and revenue model has changed. Permanently.
"Standing tall" and "keeping the bar from being lowered" would have resulted in a couple of thousand people "at the next job fair at Robert Morris." Is is unfortunate? Yep.
Is thinking otherwise unrealistic? Absolutely.
----------------
[/blockquote]
ClueByFour,
I appreciate that you would feel pretty cynical in this situation, but I've got to challenge you on some stuff. Looking over this I realize I've worded it pretty strongly. Please don't take it personally. I'm just trying to strongly challenge some of the assumptions you make in your above posting. that said, here goes:
Entitlement? We ain't entitled to anything we don't fight for and win. That's the way it's been with any right we hold dear: Free speech, the abolition of slavery, women's right to vote, the 8 hour day*... Nothing is ever given to us as people who work for a living.
Black helicopters? We ain't talking about black helicopters. We're talking business as usual by unaccountable management in corporate America: Socialize the pain and privatize the gain. That's what is going on here. Corporate shenanigans and pocket lining is simply very likely to happen in the absence of accountability and transparency at the top of a large corporation.
If thinking otherwise were "unrealistic," people would've never achieved the _reality_ of the rights we have today.
We have it hammered into us every day that there is no alternitive to knuckling under, that we have only one choice: look out for number one, bow down before the ones we serve and hope that we are more agile than the next poor schlub when it come to grabbing the crumbs that fall from the table.
You, me, our coworkers (working or otherwise), our children, everyone deserves better than that. Only when people have (1) started working together and (2) dared audacity in the face of these pronouncements that abolition of slavery, winning the right to vote, etc. were simply unrealistic... only then can we change the rules on what is realistic.
The choice is being presented pretty starkly: Accept the dictatorship of what Liquidave and BamaBronner** declare to be realistic, or work together to change that balance.
No, I'm not interested in entitlements. Just hard work and solidarity to balance the playing field and work for some human rights and justice.
-Airlineorphan [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif']
* The 8 hour day is a right we've actually lost in practical terms in the U.S. Mainly because of union leaderships that decided it was unrealistic to fight back.[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/14.gif']
** Yes, I know BamaDave is from the icy plains of Minnesota.... Coldblooded, check it and see....[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/11.gif']
***************************************************
Commit planned acts of organizing and premeditated solidarity....
----------------
On 2/10/2003 12:35:04 AM ClueByFour wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
Pittsburgh base is the only base where f/a's voted down the concessions (liquidation-lightning-round this winter) and PITbull is one of those who has made a strong case for not lowering the bar here at U. PITbull has indeed been shining a light of warning for everyone who does the work in the airline industry.
----------------
[/blockquote]
No suprise. Unfortunately, the entitlement attitude around here killed the Steel industry a few years back--why would the local airline union politicos want to try something different?
There are no black helicopters. There is no vast conspiracy. The entire industry is on life support. The pricing and revenue model has changed. Permanently.
"Standing tall" and "keeping the bar from being lowered" would have resulted in a couple of thousand people "at the next job fair at Robert Morris." Is is unfortunate? Yep.
Is thinking otherwise unrealistic? Absolutely.
----------------
[/blockquote]
ClueByFour,
I appreciate that you would feel pretty cynical in this situation, but I've got to challenge you on some stuff. Looking over this I realize I've worded it pretty strongly. Please don't take it personally. I'm just trying to strongly challenge some of the assumptions you make in your above posting. that said, here goes:
Entitlement? We ain't entitled to anything we don't fight for and win. That's the way it's been with any right we hold dear: Free speech, the abolition of slavery, women's right to vote, the 8 hour day*... Nothing is ever given to us as people who work for a living.
Black helicopters? We ain't talking about black helicopters. We're talking business as usual by unaccountable management in corporate America: Socialize the pain and privatize the gain. That's what is going on here. Corporate shenanigans and pocket lining is simply very likely to happen in the absence of accountability and transparency at the top of a large corporation.
If thinking otherwise were "unrealistic," people would've never achieved the _reality_ of the rights we have today.
We have it hammered into us every day that there is no alternitive to knuckling under, that we have only one choice: look out for number one, bow down before the ones we serve and hope that we are more agile than the next poor schlub when it come to grabbing the crumbs that fall from the table.
You, me, our coworkers (working or otherwise), our children, everyone deserves better than that. Only when people have (1) started working together and (2) dared audacity in the face of these pronouncements that abolition of slavery, winning the right to vote, etc. were simply unrealistic... only then can we change the rules on what is realistic.
The choice is being presented pretty starkly: Accept the dictatorship of what Liquidave and BamaBronner** declare to be realistic, or work together to change that balance.
No, I'm not interested in entitlements. Just hard work and solidarity to balance the playing field and work for some human rights and justice.
-Airlineorphan [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif']
* The 8 hour day is a right we've actually lost in practical terms in the U.S. Mainly because of union leaderships that decided it was unrealistic to fight back.[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/14.gif']
** Yes, I know BamaDave is from the icy plains of Minnesota.... Coldblooded, check it and see....[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/11.gif']
***************************************************
Commit planned acts of organizing and premeditated solidarity....
Braveheart
Member
- Jan 29, 2003
- 60
- 0
PITbull:
Your post and your writing must be taken more seriously by all Union Execs and their members. You are right on target. Keep up the good work.
Seigel and his staff maneuvered fear with an elaborate threat plan of no job and a major loss in benefit plan extremely well. He and his staff expounded upon the intricacies of intimidation tactics based on facts and figures only he and his staff are extremely familiar with. Remember, figures don’t lie but people do. Utterly important, the intimidation of FEAR is and still remains a well-used TOOL by corporate execs as a proven tool for success.
Unfortunately, Union’s NO longer compromise for the good of all; they compromise contracts on a singular basis. Failing to investigate thoroughly the side effects that will come back and haunt each of us at a later date and time is a major downfall.
What Union group conceded to Seigel’s first concession demands?
What psychological tactic was Seigel instituting?
Seigel is playing his troops like a Chess game. A chess player concentrating on his/her opponent’s every move. As he moves his pawn, rook, bishop, queen and king together and strategically, he observes and concentrates on the flaws his opponents make as they give up one group at a time, not maneuvering together. Thus, he realizes they can never become victorious.
As Unions and its members continue to neglect awareness, fail to identify quickly Seigel and his Union busting staff’s weaknesses, they will continue to fall one CWA, one FA, one IAM, and one ALPA at a time. Failing to emulate equality for all.
Taking control harmoniously plays a vital concept in identifying your opponent’s weaknesses. It allows your opponent to attack you much easier when you use one group at a time. As these groups are removed one-by-one the opponent becomes a dominating factor leaving each Union group flawless and gullible for attack.
The ultimate fear in today society is money. Without money one cannot survive. What we lack in understanding is the actual slavery those of the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s endured before Unions were formed. Until that occurs again, Unions will continue to be filibustered by Corporate Execs.
How many people have actually sat down with their contracts and figured out what they have given up and what the total package deal was and would have been?
How many people have actually sat down and figured out with all the new concessions, the medical benefit costs they are paying for, the benefits they lost, and then deducted that from their hourly salary to see how close they are to minimum wages?
As you climb the years of contract givebacks, you will be surprised at what your actual take home pay will be. Then add the cost of living adjustment for taxes, meals, clothing and cars and see how well you will survive.
That $150,000 giveback Seigel gave up is peanuts compared to what that worker has given up.
![11.gif']](/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2FBRAVEHEART+%5Bimg+src%3D%27http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usaviation.com%2Fidealbb%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2F11.gif%27%5D&hash=5fb6e585ce86a7c4ff7ea43e8db05665)
Your post and your writing must be taken more seriously by all Union Execs and their members. You are right on target. Keep up the good work.
Seigel and his staff maneuvered fear with an elaborate threat plan of no job and a major loss in benefit plan extremely well. He and his staff expounded upon the intricacies of intimidation tactics based on facts and figures only he and his staff are extremely familiar with. Remember, figures don’t lie but people do. Utterly important, the intimidation of FEAR is and still remains a well-used TOOL by corporate execs as a proven tool for success.
Unfortunately, Union’s NO longer compromise for the good of all; they compromise contracts on a singular basis. Failing to investigate thoroughly the side effects that will come back and haunt each of us at a later date and time is a major downfall.
What Union group conceded to Seigel’s first concession demands?
What psychological tactic was Seigel instituting?
Seigel is playing his troops like a Chess game. A chess player concentrating on his/her opponent’s every move. As he moves his pawn, rook, bishop, queen and king together and strategically, he observes and concentrates on the flaws his opponents make as they give up one group at a time, not maneuvering together. Thus, he realizes they can never become victorious.
As Unions and its members continue to neglect awareness, fail to identify quickly Seigel and his Union busting staff’s weaknesses, they will continue to fall one CWA, one FA, one IAM, and one ALPA at a time. Failing to emulate equality for all.
Taking control harmoniously plays a vital concept in identifying your opponent’s weaknesses. It allows your opponent to attack you much easier when you use one group at a time. As these groups are removed one-by-one the opponent becomes a dominating factor leaving each Union group flawless and gullible for attack.
The ultimate fear in today society is money. Without money one cannot survive. What we lack in understanding is the actual slavery those of the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s endured before Unions were formed. Until that occurs again, Unions will continue to be filibustered by Corporate Execs.
How many people have actually sat down with their contracts and figured out what they have given up and what the total package deal was and would have been?
How many people have actually sat down and figured out with all the new concessions, the medical benefit costs they are paying for, the benefits they lost, and then deducted that from their hourly salary to see how close they are to minimum wages?
As you climb the years of contract givebacks, you will be surprised at what your actual take home pay will be. Then add the cost of living adjustment for taxes, meals, clothing and cars and see how well you will survive.
That $150,000 giveback Seigel gave up is peanuts compared to what that worker has given up.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/9/2003 7:48:50 PM PITbull wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/9/2003 7:39:54 PM diogenes wrote:
PITbull,
Very well said.
It'd be very easy for the labor movement to roll over and die.
I'd rather us get our act together and take this country back. Won't be easy, won't be soon, won't be cheap.
But it must be done.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Dio,
Your lips to God's ear, words from a true unionist.
I would like to marry you....
----------------
[/blockquote]
-------------------------------------------
Aww, you're making me blush![img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/13.gif']
----------------
On 2/9/2003 7:48:50 PM PITbull wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/9/2003 7:39:54 PM diogenes wrote:
PITbull,
Very well said.
It'd be very easy for the labor movement to roll over and die.
I'd rather us get our act together and take this country back. Won't be easy, won't be soon, won't be cheap.
But it must be done.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Dio,
Your lips to God's ear, words from a true unionist.
I would like to marry you....
----------------
[/blockquote]
-------------------------------------------
Aww, you're making me blush![img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/13.gif']
U
UAL_TECH
Guest
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/9/2003 5:58:57 PM PITbull wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/9/2003 5:40:49 PM Borescope wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/9/2003 12:43:31 AM PITbull wrote:
U employees set the new "bar" for the rest of the industry to follow as the "perfect plan".
----------------
[/blockquote]
Thanks a lot, you set the bar all right......in the wrong direction. You should of had some cajones. Wait and see how we do it at UA. Our bar isn't going as low as yours.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Bore,
That is why I posted the message above on your UA Boards.
Wanted to give you guys "heads up". I wish you ALL at UA
Collective strength, resistance, perseverance and solidarity; this is what U lacked!
----------------
[/blockquote]
Dear PITbull,
Thanks, We "ALL" need it!!!
Take Care and Watch Your Back,
[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/10.gif'] UAL_TECH
“We were owners but none of us acted like it!!!â€
----------------
On 2/9/2003 5:58:57 PM PITbull wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/9/2003 5:40:49 PM Borescope wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/9/2003 12:43:31 AM PITbull wrote:
U employees set the new "bar" for the rest of the industry to follow as the "perfect plan".
----------------
[/blockquote]
Thanks a lot, you set the bar all right......in the wrong direction. You should of had some cajones. Wait and see how we do it at UA. Our bar isn't going as low as yours.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Bore,
That is why I posted the message above on your UA Boards.
Wanted to give you guys "heads up". I wish you ALL at UA
Collective strength, resistance, perseverance and solidarity; this is what U lacked!
----------------
[/blockquote]
Dear PITbull,
Thanks, We "ALL" need it!!!
Take Care and Watch Your Back,
[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/10.gif'] UAL_TECH
“We were owners but none of us acted like it!!!â€
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