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TWU and Teamsters are mirror images of each other.

Anomaly, you reference letters from attorneys and then claim that this is your "educated guess". While this maybe your opinion on this topic, many have a different view as to what would take place during a transfer of representation. I have viewed some of your info as informative, but as you know, everything is subjective.

I'll give you that. I believe in the ability to challenge law. So far this ruling has NONE that I can find. Based on the posts I have found, I would venture to say the Teamsters legal experts have not found any either.

They say they are willing to challenge the law, and the previous arguments by their attorney seem reasonable enough for me. I BELIEVE they can do it. I am not certain, but I would guess the possibility very likely.

Once again, the letter by the IBT.

This letter is in response to your request for our legal opinion concerning the right of a newly-certified representative under the Railway Labor Act (“RLA”) to bargain over the rates of pay, rules and working conditions of employees already covered by an existing collective bargaining agreement negotiated by their prior representative. The law on this issue is clear. A newly-certified representative can serve a Section 6 opener and the Carrier is obligated to negotiate over the terms of a new agreement. The starting point for such negotiations is the existing the rates of pay, rules and working conditions of employees established by their existing agreement. Further, a carrier may not refuse to negotiate with a newly-certified representative on the basis that the employees it represents are already covered by a collective bargaining agreement that was negotiated by a previous representative regardless of when the existing agreement becomes amendable.

The duty of a carrier to treat – i.e., to negotiate – with the certified representative of its employees over rates of pay, rules, and working conditions arises when the National Mediation Board (“NMB”) certifies a representative for its employees pursuant to Section 2, Ninth of the RLA, 45 U.S.C. § 152, Ninth. Section 2, Ninth provides, in relevant part, that “pon receipt of such certification the carrier shall treat with the representative so certified as the representative of the craft or class.” Id. That duty to treat with the certified representative is not nullified simply because the employees are already covered by an existing agreement that has not otherwise become amendable.

In Ass’n of Flight Attendants (AFA) v. USAir, Inc., 24 F.3d 1432 (D.C. Cir. 1995), the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit described a carrier’s duty to bargain after a change in representative. It did so in addressing AFA’s effort to apply its collective bargaining agreement with USAir to the much smaller flight attendant work group employed by Trump Shuttle and previously represented by the Transportation Workers Union (“TWU”) following USAir’s assumption of managerial control of the Shuttle. The Court of Appeals held that the status quo applicable to the Shuttle employees (i.e., their existing rates of pay, rules and working conditions) was set by their existing collective bargaining agreement negotiated by the TWU and that the status quo prevailed until modified by an agreement between AFA and the carrier. Id. at 1439-40.

The status quo is significant for two important reasons. It contains the starting point for the parties’ negotiations and the parties are forbidden from unilaterally altering the status quo except in the manner prescribed in Section 6 of the RLA. 45 U.S.C. §§ 152, Seventh; Id. at 1440. Indeed, as noted by the Court of Appeals in AFA, 24 F.3d at 1438, this has been the policy of the NMB since its inception in 1934:

When there is an agreement in effect between a carrier and its employees signed by one


set of representatives and the employees choose new representatives who are certified by the Board, the Board has taken the position that a change in representation does not alter or cancel any existing agreements made in behalf of the employees by their previous representatives.

FIRST ANNUAL REPORT OF THE NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD 23-24 (1935). Moreover, the NMB has explained that “the purpose of such policy is to emphasize a principle of the Railway Labor Act that agreements are between the employees and the carrier and that the change of an employee representative does not automatically change the contents of an agreement.” FORTY-SECOND ANNUAL REPORT OF THE NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD 39 (1976).

But, this does not mean that the newly-certified representative is prevented form pursuing new terms of employment or that it is locked into the status quo for any prescribed period of time. AFA, 24 F.3d at 1440. As the Court of Appeals explained, a carrier “cannot refuse to bargain over new terms based on a claim that bargaining has been settled under the pre-existing contract.” Id. “Instead, we hold that a newly certified union in situation such as this one has full bargaining rights with respect to covered employees without regard to whether the employees previously have been covered by a collective bargaining agreement.” Id.; accord, Bensel v. Allied Pilots Ass’n 387 F.3d 298, 316-17 (3d Cir. 2004) (citing AFA, 24 F.3d 1432).

The decision of the Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia was bolstered by its rejection of the notion that USAir or AFA were bund by the collective bargaining agreement negotiated by the TWU for the flight attendants employed by the Trump Shuttle. The Court rejected that notion out of hand, reasoning, “it is also clear that neither USAir nor AFA is contractually bound by the Eastern-TWU agreement, for these parties have not assented to any of the terms of that agreement.” Id. “The application of one union’s collective bargaining agreement to another union’s members would create a situation where those members would have, in effect, two representatives. But, one could no more have two exclusive representatives than, to use the old baseball expression, ‘two men on second base.’” AFA v. United Airlines, 71 F.3d 915, 918 (D.C. Cir. 1995).

Therefore, while a successor representative inherits the contract agreed to by its predecessor as the status quo, the carrier is obliged to agree to commence negotiations over intended changes in the agreement within thirty days of receiving notice of such changes pursuant to Section 6 of the RLA, 45 U.S.C. § 156, even though a later amendable date appears in the existing agreement.

Very truly yours,



Joshua D. McInerney
 
Anomaly, on 17 August 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

I am of the opinion that the IBT CAN AND WILL reopen the AA contract if chosen to be the representational bargaining agent. This is my educated guess based on information I have been able to find on the web.


This is the first time I have seen or read it posted this way. I have always read "will be" or that the teamsters garrenteed it. Not saying it came from you anomaly, just saying that is what I've read. Sorry to tell you Anomaly, it is not automatic "BOTH PARTIES INVOLVED HAVE TO AGREE TO THE RE-OPENER". It's the exact same if the company wants to re-open in the middle of a contract, both sides have to agree, and either side can say, "no, we will open upon the ending date of current contract". Beware my friend, find the correct answers prior to your voting for any union no matter who it is.

Are you a legal expert?

..................SWAMT Esquire?? :rolleyes:


What are you going to say when the Seeham circus clown comes up with the same argument for opening a section 6?

You on the other hand, are doing just what you suggest of the Teamsters. YOU are saying without a doubt, the law CAN NOT be challenged. How can you possible know this with 100% certainty??

I am simply stating to give it a few. I think the positions will begin to unfold.
 
I agree, my question is why has the law not been challenged yet? As far as I know, what you are saying, it hasn't been challenged. Why?
 
We all know that laws very seldom favor labor. Just look at the bankruptcy laws. I believe before to long the middle class will be history! Just my opinion.
 
I agree, my question is why has the law not been challenged yet? As far as I know, what you are saying, it hasn't been challenged. Why?

Because the airlines agreed to open the agreements before they had to go to court. Be it they knew they could not win, or they decided the combined court costs would be too high? There was, as far as I can tell, no court case.

In retrospect, I should give kudos to Third Seat Hero for this. He challenged me to find one, and I could not.

The opinion is still open. That is why I remain somewhat skeptical, but lean towards the IIBT that the possibility exists.

I sincerely believe that the contract CAN be re-opened in the case of a change of unions. A district court of appeals will inevitably decide.
 
I agree totally. As far as the previous post, this theory needs to be tested once and for all. Has anyone contacted the NMB on their take as to what the language really means or interrupts?
 
I agree totally. As far as the previous post, this theory needs to be tested once and for all. Has anyone contacted the NMB on their take as to what the language really means or interrupts?

Yes, and I believe Rice posted it a few pages back. It was ambiguous at best. The NMB isn't giving anything up easily, and as you suggested, does not really favor the unions. Again, my opinion. The IBT, or any union for that matter, will have to take the argument to court if the company does not capitulate.

Most likely, either side will appeal, and the matter will be settled in District court. Hmmm, come to think of it, maybe it will take until the amendable date by the time all the court crap is out of the way? I hope not, but just want to mention that possibility could exist as well. Keeping it real

What I see happening, if the IBT takes over, a short wait to explore possibilities, then a request to open negotiations. Hopefully the economy will be in better shape at that time, and American will agree. If not, the IBT files suit, and the matter is taken to court. At that point, AA will realize the cost, and will agree to open, realizing they will have to anyway.

In truth, the same thing can happen with AMFA, but I just do not have the same faith with their attorneys. The Teamsters really do win in that arena hands down. In house litigators is a valuable benefit for any union. And the Teamsters have many of them.
 
Funny the ibters keep neglecting this fact.

They claimed they could do the same thing at UA, UA told them nope, see you at the amendable date.

The IBT is lying.
 
I've met and talked with AMFA attorneys. Of course there are usually several views on how the law is written. Until it is tested, we may never know!
 
I did. Go back and read it. I said that the Teamsters have an opposite point of view and posted that. I said it was my opinion that they are more correct then the amfa/twu spinsters.

$400, is not chump change, but it does represent the minimum bump in pay we receive each pay check with our new Teamster agreement. Not bad at all.

I am a member. Subjectable to pay cuts, and raises. I bet we see more raises than amfa?

You mean union dues raises without a membership vote. That is the only automatic without a ratification vote in the teamsters organization. No thank you. I'll stick with the TWU before going to the Teamsters.
 
Anomaly stated?

Until I am proven otherwise, I am going to go with the IBT attorney that a reasonable argument to challenge the NMB ruling can be successfully made. The argument looks convincing enough to me that a new representing group can make a demand on the company to force them in to section 6 negotiations based upon the fact alone that the representational body has changed. I base my opinion solely on the lack of court proceedings and the opinions of the IBT attorney


The problem here is with all the Teamsters supporters is that their claim on their fliers is that the company MUST open negotiations upon changing of representation. Now we go to it will be challenged by the attorneys of the Teamsters to the NMB. Well how long will that take? No guarantee it will be challenged and successfully applied as the Teamsters claim. MORE LIES!

Stop misleading us. It only makes you or your Teamsters look BAD! You have no creditability here anymore . Most of us ignore or skim through your comments.
 
"Stop misleading us. It only makes you or your Teamsters look BAD! You have no creditability here anymore . Most of us ignore or skim through your comments."

If your statement here was true you would not even be posting any replies to Anomaly's postings.
 
anomaly's posts are highly amusing, are as those of his minions.

I am beginning to think that anomaly works for the twu.

It's hard to believe that the teamsters would be so stupid as to allow someone like anomaly to represent them.
 
Outsourcing - IAM, TWU, IBT, AMFA all has that.
Bankruptcy - IAM, TWU, IBT, AMFA, all have been there.
Headcount Reductions - IAM, TWU, IBT, AMFA, all have suffered these.
Politics - IAM, TWU, IBT, AMFA, none are winning in this arena.

Of the above listed items, can anyone name a single union organization that has stopped the airlines from outsourcing work, or that succeeded in defending the union members in bankruptcy court, of that has not suffered headcount reductions in the last 15 years, or that been a true proven success in the politics of campaign involvement, or lobbying against overseas maintenance?

I read through this forum and I see union bashing union but I don't see any union being any better than the other union in any the above listed items that you folks are bashing each other over.

So if they are all failing at all of the above bashing items, and of those items there is not a difference period, then why not go with the one that stands the best chance at addressing your issues beyond those listed, and the one that the AMT would be the majority within?
 
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