According to the latest seniority list they hired around 16 two weeks ago.
Tulsa To The Rescue..... BUT WHY?
- Thread starter La Li Lu Le Lo
- Start date
From past discussions I beleive you were once Union. While I'm sure there are some things you miss as far as having a contract would you trade places and give up your $46.56 non union rate to work at AA for $33.27 or even $37? Would you be willing to cut your pay by $14.00/hr to see FX bring all their outsourced work in house? According to Overspeed that would give you more leverege at the bargaing table, if you had one, still not sure if he means it would give the workers more leverage or the company because I'm still not sure what he is.
IIRC back in 2001 we made more than FX. When FX talks wages to their guys they dont say "Hey we cant compare to AA or USAIR because they are in a different industry" yet our ATD and its minions (like Overspeed) fully embrace that arguement.
At best FX wages, like UPS and SWA have kept pace with inflation, they have not made economic gains, when you see what they are making understand thats less than what we used to make in real terms.
2ndGENAMT
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- Dec 23, 2011
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And I will add that until the air carriers get together an forge their own mandatory fuel surcharge the industry will not change...
Although I am not a fan of government intervention maybe our leadership should lobby Congress for such a surcharge to keep the industry volatility to a minimum...
Although I am not a fan of government intervention maybe our leadership should lobby Congress for such a surcharge to keep the industry volatility to a minimum...
Yes Bob I was union in a past life...AMFA as a matter of fact and was iam also for many years at NWA before we threw them out. FX wages increased dramatically as well as most other airline AMT's when we at NWA under AMFA negotiated our first contract. We set the bar no doubt about that...That contract was just prior to 9/11. After that all bets were off. The passenger airlines especially used that and the ensuing IRAQ war to gut everyones contract under the force majure clause. What really happened was a race to the bottom again for the passenger carriers except SWA and of course FX and UPS did not follow. That is the reason there is such a difference in top pay. Now do I miss a union? ..In some ways I do but in a lot of ways I do not. I really haven't seen a union out there that I would want to represent me at this point. AMFA was what I and a lot of others had hoped would evolve into a true craft union..However, just too many people against it and with the loss we suffered with the strike there really isn't a union I feel would represent me or gain me anything more than I have in fact I would probably stand to lose some things and have to pay dues on top of it. But make no mistake though..FX the company throws money at the AMT's to keep a union out and that is pretty obvious. I have told these guys here that they are better off taking the money FX keeps throwing at them/us and just keep the threat of the union out there and they will be much better off..Cetainly better than the IBT which has been wooing the FX mechanics for some time now. They are the last union I want to see here. I lost my career in 2005 with 17 yrs at NWA but I make more money here at FX a lot more and now have 6 yrs here and the high pay is all thanks to the efforts I and the other honorable NW/AMFA AMT's at NWA and the fight we had in 2001 for a industry leading contract and the ultimate sacrifice we all made in 2005.
Sorry Bob I did not address one question you asked about doing work in house. Well FX still does a few C Checks inhouse in LAX but does farm out most all other C checks. Now I have no doubt that if they brought that all in house it would dilute the present wages..Sorry if that offends some but it is a fact. It doesn't say that C check guys are less skilled than line it is just easier to farm out that kind of work at a lower cost. Where line is more of a real time commodity moving live flights and it too is farmed out to a certain extent FX has a lot of line stations that are vendor. But in high dollar markets and stations FX will not only keep their own mechanics there but quite often a spare a/c as well. .. Bottom line is if you have a large group and take a larger chunk of the pie in terms of wages that a company is committed to spend the chances that it will drive the wages lower across that group. Ever wonder why at the major airline level that Aircraft Dispatchers make so much? I mean you can get a dispatch ticket in 6 weeks...Thats 200 classroom hrs. Much less than the 1900 hrs it takes to get an A@P. And at most all the majors topped out dispatchers are making over 100k plus they have CASS which allows them the same jumpseat priviledges as pilots. At UPS they make 130k..They collectively are a very small group with a skill and a license that is required of the job. Not nessesarily the case with mechanics especially in a heavy check envrionment MRO you would likely see a lot of UN licensed mechanics doing the work. That is why I do not care to be in a union again like the IAM where they like to lump the ramp and agents in with AMT's all with the great arguement "strength in numbers" BS that kept my pay in the gutter all those years. Until they change the class and craft to where we don't have to take anyone in our union other than skilled craftsman I will take my chances without a union and let my skill and marketplace dictate my wages.
- Aug 20, 2002
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A couple of things:
First I do not resent a wage deference between C check and line work. I am more than willing to take somewhat less. However I do not believe that as an A&P mechanic I should be compensated in last place because I belong to an industrial catchall union.
Second the difference between package handlers and human cargo shouldn't be as drastic as it is. Maybe we should charge a human by the pound.
Of course having faith in a company to properly manage any extra revenue, well that's another story.
First I do not resent a wage deference between C check and line work. I am more than willing to take somewhat less. However I do not believe that as an A&P mechanic I should be compensated in last place because I belong to an industrial catchall union.
Second the difference between package handlers and human cargo shouldn't be as drastic as it is. Maybe we should charge a human by the pound.
Of course having faith in a company to properly manage any extra revenue, well that's another story.
Excellent...Excellent post...... strikeforce !!
BOTH of your points (within the post) are DEAD ON.
I've got a few SHITE HEADS on here who make statements like, "Tom Barry's posts are un-impressive/un-informative ..blah...blah..blah.
I've FORGOTTEN More about REAL Unions, than most on here will ever KNOW(and thru it all, I DON'T proclaim to be a BETTER person than anyone)
Now referring back to your great post strikeforce, lets see if the CESSPOOL-ette's can grasp this true example;
When the Longshoremen on the pacific coast go on strike from San Diego - to - Anchorage, HOW MANY Guys go to work, because they needs the extra money, or any other reason for that matter ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Answer: ............................ N O N E !!!!!!!!!!!!
(Any CESSPOOL-ette care to venture a guess WHY) ???
C'mon now, don't be bashfull......speak up !
Dispatch- can not be farmed out, I believe its the law.
So would you be willing to take a $14/hr cut in pay to bring all the work in house?
No.
The company would bring the work in house to get the wage reduction, then simply outsource in the next round and keep the wages the same.
strikeforce
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- Jan 18, 2011
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no, but maybe it's time fleet and the other work groups go to the bottom, so WE can keep work in-house. And, why should I take a cut in pay to save jobs? Why should an A&P take a cut in pay to save title II? Why should I take a cut in pay to save any other work group??
strikeforce
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- Jan 18, 2011
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only qualified union people can answer this! which, btw, excludes about 99% of the people on this forum.
OP
La Li Lu Le Lo
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- May 29, 2010
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- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #88
I meant TWU = Control is in they are there to control YOU. A facade if you will.
Well my answer is why should any group take a cut in pay? Productivity is waay waay up, revenue is way up, yea Fuel took a big chunk of the extra revenue but they arent the only ones at the trough, all the big players are taking bigger shares than ever before then saying there's nothing left for us.
Overspeed, who claims to be a line CC out of DFW, my guess is he doesnt actually clock in and work at DFW, says that we all should be willing to work for much much less than our peers at the airports we work at across the country because "we do more work in house". Well is that a valid arguement? Should we be willing to steeply discount our labor, (I'm not talking small change here, I'm talking big bucks, just the Holidays alone takes around $4000/year out of our pockets, then looking at the wages, sick time, medical etc etc it gets even worse), to maintain a volume of work that nobody else has and is the only real arguement the company has for abrogation?
AA has thrown out a number of 4500 from M&R. Is it realistic? I doubt it, especially as far as Title II. In many stations there really is no option, look at the Northeast, if they outsourced the work the companies that do that work pay as much or more than AA does, so it would cost them more or they would not get the performance they get now. In some stations the guys would likely be hired by the vendor and top out higher than at AA. That said there is work that the company would outsource, and maybe they should but I think the numbers they threw out there were for shock value, so they could come back and say that they backed off and agreed to meet the Unions demands to mitigate the job losses and sell that as a concession off their ASK.
If all their competitors are outsourcing work that we still do at current levels in house and they are making profits then what is the business arguement for keeping work to a BK Judge?
What this comes down to is do we keep work in house at current levels of employment (especially Tulsa) at any price? AFW is slated to be closed, all we can do is preserve their right to bump. BK or not, we in the high cost areas can not pay any price, we need financial relief. BK does change some things, the Judge most likely will abrogate the deals if they are put in front of him and he will do so based upon the companies claims, true or not, that the contract is onerous mainly because the terms require AA to keep work in house that competitors can outsource. If a deal gets put before the company where line guys end up with a lower hourly rate than they would have recieved in the TA and the base guys end up closer to the line pay than they would have under the TA my guess is that the company will allow the offer to become public, then reject it, and move to abrogate. Why? Because then the company would be in a perfect position to go non-union. Here's why.
Sure Overspeed will say "Its all Bobs fault" but most wont care, all they see is T-W-U. Most of the guys dont know who I am but they all know the TWU. So they put this offer in front of the company and the company decides, no, they want the ability to outsource like others do. They go to the Judge who abrogates the contract. Now the company, even though they have already imposed new terms, asks for release as per section 6, remember there is no contract at this point, no Article 38 either. Instead of negotiating at the table they tell the line guys that "if you had no union, and the company had the flexibility of Delta or Jet Blue that they would be willing to pay the line guys like Delta or Jet Blue". After the 30 days they are officially released to self help by the NMB, they could chuck the term sheet and make new terms for the line and could then turn around and pay all Tulsa OSM wages and tell both the line and base that if they dont perform they will outsource their work. How would the guys react to such an offer at this point? How should they react? Would the guys in Tulsa strike in protest of the pay cuts, would the line guys strike in protest of the pay raise or fight to go the bottom of the industry to keep the Tulsa headcount the majority? Is there really any question?
Of course there's always the chance that AA would accept the offer and the line guys would once again be screwed but being that the line guys are a part of the daily operation of the company, they are already seeing slim pickins as far as new hires, probably will have trouble retaining talent on the floor and the company already showed what they were willing to give in the TA, I dont think the company would be very happy with how their operation performed with bottom of the industry paid line mechanics.
This is probably why other Unions opted to cut loose the work . They probably saw the potential for busting the union completly and instead of losing all the dues they only lost half. The leaders of those unions, after years of adversarial relationships with the carriers would have expected such a move, our leaders, on the other hand, would probably be completely caught off guard by a move to oust the TWU by American Airlines.
Over the years I've seen the company fire several guys, most got their jobs back, of those who did, and were good ambitious workers, they eventually quit the company on their own. When they were out they saw that there was life after AA and in many cases realized that while we have slid back so far, most others moved past us. The hardest part is leaving, and that is looking easier and easier here on the line.
I realize that in Tulsa this is still a very good job, even at OSM rates they would still be living better than we are in places like NY or LAX but we are in BK and what are the company's striongest points for abrogation? The law says that the agreements must be onerous, in that it prevents the company from successfully reorganizing. What parts of our contract could concievably be considered onerous?
Wages?-No, we are at the bottom
Sick Time?-No, we are at the bottom
Holidays?-No, we are at the bottom
IOD time?, No we are near the bottom
Medical Benefits?-No- we are at best average for the industry we are in
Hours of work?-no, at industry standard
Overtime?-No-we are below industry standrad-no 2x
Job Security-NO as far as the date, yes as far as the number of people protected
Pension-? Yes, most of our peers no longer have a DB pension.
Retiree Medical ?Yes, most of peers do not have Retiree Medical anymore
Scope?- Yes the requirement to maintain more work in house than competitors have is a slam dunk for abrogation. If the Union argues that they spread the costs out among the whole work group the company could, ironically, argue that by paying the line guys so much below market rate that they feel they would not get acceptable performance.
To me the only chance of avoiding abrogation is to give relief on the Articles that would be harder to defend, that means the DB Pension, Retiree Medical and outsourcing what every one else outsources. We may be headed towards abrogation no matter what we put forward but there are two strategic considerations here, you need the Tulsa base in order to pass a vote, you need the line mechanics to operate the airline. If you are looking to bust the union you dont need the vote you need to keep your airline going. If we make the mistake of putting forth a proposal that leaves the line guys way below industry standard in order to preserve headcount, then I could easily see the Union busting scenario play out.
enough already
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- Jan 8, 2003
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What's it like being one of the , apparently, few intelligent people on the face of the earth? <_< You define narcissism.
nar·cis·sism [nahr-suh-siz-em] noun
1. Inordinate fascination with oneself; excessive self-love; vanity.
2. Psychoanalysis . erotic gratification derived from admiration of one's own physical or mental attributes, being a normal condition at the infantile level of personality development.
