Transition Agreement, Addington litigation and arbitrations, and their possible effects on a US Airw

[Move2CLT]

You must have been quite the "grievance chairman"..or so you claim. Must have been a short career. What did you do, stand up in the hearings and yell insults? How do you ever make it through a checklist?

You owe us all new scroll buttons, we keep wearing them out getting past your posts. Really, not one statement of consequence?

RR

I was an outstanding grievance chairman.

And you're so full of crap when you say you scroll past my posts. It's obvious you read every word I post.

And the info I'm hearing out of the company Is going to keep you riveted to my posts. This whole LGA swap has kept the company busy but your CIRP will be coming up to speed soon.

Again.

 

[Phoenix]

The 9th did not say usapa could use a non-Nic. The 9th said, usapa could use a non-Nic, if...IF...IF....

Try to be more clear. Is USAPA under an injunction? Hint: Wake issued an injunction that constrained USAPA to use NIC.


The 9th left USAPA to bargain with the company (not any other legal rep, say it slowly.... the c o m p a n y). The 9th acknowledged that the outcome may not result in the harm the West fears... or the West may have the opinion that it does. The 9th did your homework for you to help you be successful in a DFR, that will be ripe after ratification, should you wish to sue. The 9th was kind enough to point out that the SCOTUS has already provided you the threshold to be successful at arriving at a court finding of a DFR loss.

Nothing to see here yet. Move along.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The 9th was kind enough to point out that the SCOTUS has already provided you the threshold to be successful at arriving at a court finding of a DFR loss.

Actually, the entire 9th majority ruling, after the narrative of the background, said only one sentence about anything other than ripeness. They quoted SCOTUS to support their ripeness ruling. To paraphrase that one sentence dealing with anything other than ripeness: We leave aside the thorny issue of the merits except to state that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nic as was ALPA.

Quoting SCOTUS had nothing to do with the merits of the case. Just something else the east takes out of context.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

Try to be more clear. Is USAPA under an injunction? Hint: Wake issued an injunction that constrained USAPA to use NIC.


The 9th left USAPA to bargain with the company (not any other legal rep, say it slowly.... the c o m p a n y). The 9th acknowledged that the outcome may not result in the harm the West fears... or the West may have the opinion that it does. The 9th did your homework for you to help you be successful in a DFR, that will be ripe after ratification, should you wish to sue. The 9th was kind enough to point out that the SCOTUS has already provided you the threshold to be successful at arriving at a court finding of a DFR loss.

Nothing to see here yet. Move along.

Yep, the 9th left usapa to bargain with the company. I totally get it PHX, what part of it do you not get? Maybe the part about "for all LCC pilots,,,,under the pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR".

As I said, bargain away. It is bargaining, not demanding. usapa asked for DOH, the company replied, no f'n way losers. So, usapa can either "bargain", and come up with something different, or they can claim an impasse and ask the mediator to be released, (to which they will quickly hear the sound of laughing in their faces).

 

[Move2CLT]

Actually, the entire 9th majority ruling, after the narrative of the background, said only one sentence about anything other than ripeness. They quoted SCOTUS to support their ripeness ruling. To paraphrase that one sentence dealing with anything other than ripeness: We leave aside the thorny issue of the merits except to state that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nic as was ALPA.

Quoting SCOTUS had nothing to do with the merits of the case. Just something else the east takes out of context.

Jim

ALPA got dinged by the courts because they messed with the integration process and screwed the TWA pilots.

And USAPA thinks it can get away with screwing with the results of an agreed to process? Ripeness is just around the corner.

No wonder USAPA hasn't passed another list across the table. The whole free to negotiate thing you easties hang on to is BS. All Cleary sees is unquestionably ripe DFR.

 

[Move2CLT]

The West simply ignores that reality, and in doing so don't even realize what will be necessary to win a DFR lawsuit. With ALPA, a DFR would be nearly impossible to win due to the fact that ALPA could defend themselves by pointing out the fact that they weren't even at the seen of the accident... they contractually had nothing to do with the SLI (they outsourced it and the plaintiffs, perhaps under duress, agreed to outsource it). On the other hand USAPA now has complete responsibility for the SLI proposal, as the 9th has affirmed. The 9th also did some homework for the West and provided them the threshold for a DFR win when they quoted SCOTUS... wide range of reasonableness, wholly arbitrary....etc, a standard that Wake excluded entirely from his romper room court proceedings.

If the West thinks they will waltz along the same path in the next DFR suit, they have their head in the sand (ya know, the 9th only said, "not ripe", according to the willfully ignorant.) I don't blame them, a hole in the sand looks more optimistic than the path the 9th laid out for them to walk.

Pssst, boo boo. FYI, we won the DFR. It was overturned on ripeness, not merits.

When it becomes ripe, we'll slide our case across the table to the judge and it'll be ruled on from the bench.

 

[usfliboi]

Scope is everything? All of a sudden scope is it? Before that it was DOH, right? And what was it in between those two things?

You guys found another little trash can to bang around a make some noise with and try and spook those west guys, right? Well, go ahead and make your noise. Whatever keeps you distracted.

And you tried to tell us? Are you the same guys that gave your pension away and are currently working under LOA93? Are you also the same guys that have had the majority and have FAILED to use it to move DOH forward?

And how's that contract coming along.

And the injunction? The company has you easties so spun around that Cleary has to post a FAQ telling you how to call in sick and write up airplanes.

What is it you tried to tell us again?

Moderator...isnt there already a romper room section already open? Why do we have to filter through yet another thread repeating the same stuff? I am so sure i speak for many others.....can we keep their kid rants in one topic thread?

 

[Phoenix]

Yep, the 9th left usapa to bargain with the company. ...

Add to that the SCOTUS agreed. The SCOTUS didn't spank the 9th for leaving USAPA and the company to bargain, neither did they spank the 9th for quoting them about when a DFR is ripe for adjudication... The SCOTUS stood by and let Wake get spanked.

Indeed, the Supreme Court case that clarified that the DFR was applicable during contract negotiations articulated its holding in terms that imply a claim can be brought only after negotiations are complete and a “final product” has been reached. See Air Line Pilots Ass'n, Int'l v. O'Neill, 499 U.S. 65, 78 (1991) (“[T]he final product of the bargaining process may constitute evidence of a breach of duty only if it can be fairly characterized as so far outside a ‘wide range of reasonableness,’ that it is wholly ‘irrational’ or ‘arbitrary.’ “ (quoting Ford Motor Co. v. Huffman, 345 U.S. 330, 338 (1953))).

It is abundantly clear that the SCOTUS was quoted by the 9th in order to show when a DFR is ripe (final product), and for your reading pleasure they let you in on a little secret, "wide range of reasonableness" and wholly "irrational or arbitrary" have nothing to do with the point at which it is ripe....but only with the threshold of "may constitute evidence of a breach of duty only if"

"Only if.." That is a clearly defined threshold. Ignore it if you wish.

 

[luvn737s]

There are a few little problems with your theory.

In order to file for bankruptcy, you have to be bankrupt. You can't just say, hey, we are filing chapter 11 to get out of alll these contracts and debt, even though we have a bunch of cash in the bank and assets all around the country.

Also, no judge in the country would just dismiss a contract because one side does not like how it is turning out.......think about that for a while, and why the Nic is still the only end game as long as the West says so.

Perhaps I didn't paint the picture clearly enough. If Parker claims AA prior to them filing BK, the cash hemorrhage would justify putting the whole combined entity into BK and being able to adjust labor costs and fleet levels. The BK judge rules on behalf of preserving shareholder value.

The injunction just hedges the companies bet by eliminating the threat of pilot misbehavior.

Parker's learned his lesson and won't be intimidated by whiny employees again.

 

[USA320Pilot]

AMR, pilots resume contract talks, stock hit again

"Our labor cost challenge, while not particularly complicated, is not an easy one to solve. And given the recent rumors and speculation in the media, and the recent volatility of our company's stock price, it's clear that some have their doubts as to whether we will succeed in bringing our negotiations to a successful conclusion," American's chief executive, Gerard Arpey, said in a letter to employees.

Airlines industry wide are closely watching the outcome of the American negotiations and where the two sides might find common ground. The head of APA's rival union, Lee Moak of the Air Line Pilots Association, told Reuters on Tuesday that any pilot agreement at American could impact talks at the other big carriers. Officials at United Airlines and US Airways Group Inc said in response they were watching events at American closely.

Click here to read the story.

 

[USA320Pilot]

AMR, pilots resume contract talks, stock hit again

"Our labor cost challenge, while not particularly complicated, is not an easy one to solve. And given the recent rumors and speculation in the media, and the recent volatility of our company's stock price, it's clear that some have their doubts as to whether we will succeed in bringing our negotiations to a successful conclusion," American's chief executive, Gerard Arpey, said in a letter to employees.

Airlines industry wide are closely watching the outcome of the American negotiations and where the two sides might find common ground. The head of APA's rival union, Lee Moak of the Air Line Pilots Association, told Reuters on Tuesday that any pilot agreement at American could impact talks at the other big carriers. Officials at United Airlines and US Airways Group Inc said in response they were watching events at American closely.

Click here to read the story.

If AMR extracts large concessions from APA and remains independent that is likely going to weigh on new contract talks at Delta, United Continental, and US Airways. With pattern bargaining and USAPA's inexperienced NAC; coupled with Professional Negotiator Scott Peterson's law firm (Seham, Seham, Meltz, & Peterson) no longer working for USAPA, the Union may have once again missed an opportunity to negotiate a new contract. Thus, could US Airways' pilots be working under C2004/LOA 93 for a long time once the DJ lawsuit is settled? Another missed opportunity by the UELs?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

If AMR extracts large concessions from APA and remains independent that is likely going to weigh on new contract talks at Delta, United Continental, and US Airways. With pattern bargaining and USAPA's inexperienced NAC; coupled with Professional Negotiator Scott Peterson's law firm (Seham, Seham, Meltz, & Peterson) no longer working for USAPA, the Union may have once again missed an opportunity to negotiate a new contract. Thus, could US Airways' pilots be working under C2004/LOA 93 for a long time once the DJ lawsuit is settled. Another missed opportunity by the UELs?

Guess the F/a's did too huh! Maybe they should blame it on USAPA, their inexperience, AMR and all the pattern bargaining, still waiting on that UAL prediction! BTW on another note what's up with the MDA lawsuit?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

MDA get a trial date yet?

 

[Move2CLT]

MDA get a trial date yet?

Seriously?

 

[cleardirect]

Guess the F/a's did too huh! Maybe they should blame it on USAPA, their inexperience, AMR and all the pattern bargaining, still waiting on that UAL prediction! BTW on another note what's up with the MDA lawsuit?

The F/A's are blaming usapa. Ever hear of their "me too" clause? They have waited all of this time for usapa to get a contract. A usapa is not going to happen for a very long time. The F/a's are going to leave you guys in the dust. That will leave usapa as the failure on the property. All the other labor groups will be going to for their second contract while usapa stagnates on BK wages.

The bogus once the F/A's sign a deal and they start flying with west pilots. They are going to find out what low lifes you east guys are and the west F/A's will find out how good they had it flying with westies after flying you easties.