This Is Why U And Ual Will Not Have A Transaction

[KCFlyer]

Hmmm...I'd tend to agree with Fly on this one...look over at the warm fuzzies between the AA and TWA employees...and then tell me how US/UAL would be any smoother

 

[Busdrvr]

Consistancy chip!! The same sources you quote as gospel now, were all lambasting the idiocy of UAL's attempted purchase of U a couple short years ago. Are they only right when they agree with you? As to the 2000 profit projections for the merger, those were VASTLY differant times, and incidently, many sources praised AMR for pulling off a MUCH better deal with TWA. BTW, hows that deal working? :blink: . AGAIN, the "net" at UAL is somewhat (if not completely) irrelevent. UAL devalued PARKED, YES PARKED jets. How does that "re-evalution of asset value" REALLY impact the day to day profitability of the operation. In any case, you say you haven't 'studied' UAL quarterly report. might I recommend you do before commenting on it?

 

[BDLDFW]

I believe that US will stand and fight it's turf in PHL. It will be a very bloody battle that is a given. This is a first that WN is going after a major airlines hub

WN has been at Detroit Metro for years.

 

[Doc]

I can’t believe these boards and how blind some can be the merger in my view is a must for both companies It is not weather who has their paint on the side or who’s sonority gets screwed.
It is plain and simple to survive in the near future for both UAL and U they must unite.
UAL pensions will defiantly change there is no other way… come on if you can’t see it then your putting your head in the ground.
Seniority although a tough topic is what it will be 1 for 1 no matter who buys who or who’s colors are on the side.
Really…. can you imagine the hostility if it were any other way.
There are thousands of jobs at stake UAL and U both companies are in a precarious position dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t. Everybody needs to stop the rumors and just wait and see. Unless you have a fly on the wall in somebody’s office.

 

[737nCH11]

For over a year it was U buying UAL assets for UAL to survive. Now it has escalated to UAL and U merging for the survival of both companies. Wake up people!

I'll say it again. UAL doesn't need to merge with anybody. It can handily compete as a stand-alone carrier. If you think that they will perish without some sort of merger then you better be prepared to put American and Delta on that list too.

I said in an earlier post that I think the merger rumor is a definite possibility, however I don't believe it will be a merger of two equals. I think if UAL does anything it will pick and choose among U's assets. All in my opinion only.

 

[KCFlyer]

I can’t believe these boards and how blind some can be the merger in my view is a must for both companies It is not weather who has their paint on the side or who’s sonority gets screwed.
It is plain and simple to survive in the near future for both UAL and U they must unite.
UAL pensions will defiantly change there is no other way… come on if you can’t see it then your putting your head in the ground.
Seniority although a tough topic is what it will be 1 for 1 no matter who buys who or who’s colors are on the side.
Really…. can you imagine the hostility if it were any other way.
There are thousands of jobs at stake UAL and U both companies are in a precarious position dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t. Everybody needs to stop the rumors and just wait and see. Unless you have a fly on the wall in somebody’s office.

Why ask for trouble? As cold hearted as this sounds - the only viable "merger" would be for one company to go Chapter 7 and the other airline purchase any "assets" in a liquidation sale and hire any employees as "new hires". Anything else is just asking for trouble.

 

[firstamendment]

It may sound good on paper, but the labor groups will send the airline to Ch 7 first. There will not be a merger, at least not in the next few crucial years. Labor has lost too much already (on both sides) and they won't allow themselves to lose more.

Chip mentions that before this "dream merger" occurs, the pension issue must be addressed. Answer this? How would U pilots react if they were forced to merge with UAL, but somehow the UAL pilots were able to retain their pension? Would the U pilots fight to get theirs back (they should)? Would the UAL pilots fight to keep theirs (they would)? This is not a question of whether UAL will retain the pensions (I am going with the assumption here that they do......no, I'm not delusional, this is just a rhetorical question) but how these two groups could possibly coexist. This is only one issue of the many that would occur.

I believe that management sees a merger as a possible path to avoid Ch 7 but they are wise enough to see that in reality (because of the labor problem) a merger is actually the quickest way to Ch 7. The only people who prosper in a merger are senior, the junior people lose their jobs either way, so what's the motivation for them to not strike? Regardless of whether the strike is legal, it would mark the end of the airline(s). Neither airline can afford the public reaction. If ANY group walks, we may as well close the doors forever.

Like my Mom always said: Be careful what you wish for. Good Luck to everyone! We're going to need it.

Flyer

Let's make something clear. 99% of the employees at US Airways do no want a merger with United...period.

We do NOT see UAL as our savoir...period.

Chip Munn does not represent but one man's opinion of our 28,000....period.

 

[BoeingBoy]

To add fuel to fire, it has been posted that UAL hasn't been paying all it's bills while in BK. I'll stay out of that argument, but this will add some perspective to U's loss of "only" 37 million (operating) in the 3rd quarter.

The pilot's follow-on pension is to be funded to the tune of 800+ million per year with contributions made monthly. Pending the "legislative solution", this years deposits are to be made to an escrow account. 800+ million per year = 200+ million per quarter. To date, NO deposits have been made to the escrow account.

If you add the amount that should have been paid into the pension plan to U's reported 3rd quarter numbers, the "real" loss looks like about 400 million (net)

 

[767jetz]

If you add the amount that should have been paid into the pension plan to U's reported 3rd quarter numbers, the "real" loss looks like about 400 million (net)

Hmmmmmmmm...

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Sorry gang,

Just saw a typo in last paragraph of previous post...

90 million net loss plus 200+ million new pension funding equals roughly 300 million, not 400 million.

Another note...

The 800+ million per year/ 200+ million per quarter is based upon managements statement of intent. The actual deposits are based on a percentage of pay calculated for each pilot. Haven't seen any numbers on what this totals.

 

[Busdrvr]

If they "owe" the money, it IS on the balance sheet, whether it's paid or not. Just like ALL of UAL's Debt, leases and gate rents ARE on the balance sheet (and income/loss statement).

 

[usramperTPA]

If they "owe" the money, it IS on the balance sheet, whether it's paid or not. Just like ALL of UAL's Debt, leases and gate rents ARE on the balance sheet (and income/loss statement).

That's right, it is on the books each quarter. This brings up a very interesting point, Isn't U is trying to re-hash the funding terms with the PBGC? Numbers for Q3 would have been very interesting without this negative payout on the books! Same would be true for UAL and their "unpaid" debt! Good luck to all at U and UAL, we're all gonna need it!