They Pay me just enough not to quit! So I do just enough to not get fired!

[Oneflyer]

Tell me, O Great One Flyer!

I have 31 years experieince as an aircraft mechanic!

What do you think I'm worth?

I bet you'll say "what the market rate is"

Let me tell you about these CEO's and other overpaid greedy execuitves:

THEIR COMPENSATION IS DETERMINED BY THEIR PEERS...........THEIR BOARDS OF DIRECTORS WHO ARE CEO'S AND CFO'S OF OTHER COMPANIES WHO HAVE THEIR WHO HAVE THEIR COMPENSATION DETERMINED BY THEIR PEERS.......THEIR BOARDS OF DIRECTORS WHO ARE CEO'S AND CFO'S OF OTHER COMPANIES WHO HAVE THEIR WHO HAVE THEIR COMPENSATION DETERMINED BY THEIR PEERS.......THEIR BOARDS OF DIRECTORS WHO ARE CEO'S AND CFO'S OF OTHER COMPANIES WHO HAVE THEIR WHO HAVE THEIR COMPENSATION DETERMINED BY THEIR PEERS.......THEIR BOARDS OF DIRECTORS WHO ARE CEO'S AND CFO'S OF OTHER COMPANIES WHO HAVE THEIR WHO HAVE THEIR COMPENSATION DETERMINED BY THEIR PEERS.......
THE FORMER EXXON MOBIL CHAIRMAN LEE RAYMOND REALLY EARNED HIS $390 MILLION DOLLAR PAYOUT UPON RETIREMENT..

You see, O great ONEFLYER, the average working person doesn't have the luxury of having his/her compensation determined by a peer unlike the fat cats.

So tell me how what the CEO of EXXON make effects your salary? You're talking about two different issues. Is CEO pay for many companies too high yes, of course. That doesn't mean that your pay is too low. The problem with airline employees is completely a supply and demand issue. There are a lot of airline employees and not as many employees. Think back when the Eastern mechanics struck, AA and Southwest were growing rapidly and there were several start ups, when Eastern went under there were jobs available. Today that just isn't the case, if AA goes under there just isn't anywhere for all the employees to go. Management has the upperhand, in 5-15 years as all of AAs older mechanics start retiring the rate will climb, because there won't be as many able body mechanics to replace them.

 

[local 12 proud]

in 5-15 years as all of AAs older mechanics start retiring the rate will climb, because there won't be as many able body mechanics to replace them.

It won't take that long. many are leaving the industry now with no intentions of ever returning. there will one day be a mechanic shortage because many A&P schools have closed due to lack of enrollment, thats when the government will lower the minimum requirements to be a mechanic, or ship all maintenance overseas to the chinese sweat shops or to our neighbors down south.

However we may soon have a third option when W gets his way with the guest worker program. perhaps as he puts it, It will just be another one of those jobs Americans refuse to do.

 

[flyhigh]

Hopeful,

Here's the list of AMR board members:

Gerard J. Arpey

Edward A. Brennan
Lead Director, AMR
Retired Chairman, President
and Chief Executive Officer
Sears, Roebuck and Co.
(Merchandising)

John W. Bachmann
Senior Partner
Edward Jones

David L. Boren
President
University of Oklahoma

Armando M. Codina
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
Codina Group, Inc.
(Real Estate Investments,
Development and Construction,

Earl G. Graves
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
Earl G. Graves, Limited
(Communications and Publishing)
Publisher and Chief Executive Officer
Black Enterprise Magazine
General Partner

Ann McLaughlin Korologos
Chairman Rand Corporation
Santa Monica, CA

Michael A. Miles
Special Limited Partner
Forstmann Little & Co.

Philip J. Purcell
Retired Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co.

Ray M. Robinson
Vice Chairman
East Lake Community Foundation
(Private Philanthropy)

Judith Rodin
President
The Rockefeller Foundation
(Private Philanthropy)

Matt Rose
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corp.
(Rail Transportation)

Roger Staubach
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
The Staubach Group
(Real Estate Services)

Do you really believe Arpey can help the University president much? How about the philanthropy folks? Probably not. As for the folks who are involved in other businesses...I'm sure the BNSF CEO makes plenty more than Gerard and Arpey would crazy to think he'll make nearly as much as him at AMR...

Your conspiracy theory of back scratching is largely old news since the demise of Enron. Sarbanes - Oxley (SOx) required the boards of corporations to be made up of less other CEO than previously existed. Looking at this board, it's more about relationships to maintain strong community ties.

Let's see, the President of Univ. of Oklahoma - keeps Tulsa happy.
A sucessful African-American entrepreneur...see we like all people.
Armando M. Codina...more diversity
Edward A. Brennan...the AARP crowd
Philip J. Purcell...more for the retired folks
Roger Staubach...we love Texas, yes we do!

 

[Oneflyer]

It won't take that long. many are leaving the industry now with no intentions of ever returning. there will one day be a mechanic shortage because many A&P schools have closed due to lack of enrollment, thats when the government will lower the minimum requirements to be a mechanic, or ship all maintenance overseas to the chinese sweat shops or to our neighbors down south.

However we may soon have a third option when W gets his way with the guest worker program. perhaps as he puts it, It will just be another one of those jobs Americans refuse to do.

Ok, lets say that happens. At that point quality either suffers, improves or stays the same. Lets assume that improvement is out of the question. If maintenance quality stays the same, the job of mechanic didn't deserve to be considered highly skilled and the reduction in pay is justified. If quality suffers, delays increase or worse planes begin to fall from the sky. Airlines will realize that having home grown high quality mechanics is more cost efficient than the cost savings that they receive from outsourced labor, etc... and they will insource maintenance and pay well enough to attract quality workers. With the changing demographics of the country that is very likely.

 

[MCI transplant]

Ok, lets say that happens. At that point quality either suffers, improves or stays the same. Lets assume that improvement is out of the question. If maintenance quality stays the same, the job of mechanic didn't deserve to be considered highly skilled and the reduction in pay is justified. If quality suffers, delays increase or worse planes begin to fall from the sky. Airlines will realize that having home grown high quality mechanics is more cost efficient than the cost savings that they receive from outsourced labor, etc... and they will insource maintenance and pay well enough to attract quality workers. With the changing demographics of the country that is very likely.

<_< ---- People! Your missing the boat here! Did I see in yesterdays paper, Bush is going to open the Sky's to foreign carriers? AND! Raise the stack in foreign ownership of American carriers! Do I smell aa/ and British Air again??? :down:

 

[eolesen]

Hopeful,

Here's the list of AMR board members:

Your conspiracy theory of back scratching is largely old news since the demise of Enron. Sarbanes - Oxley (SOx) required the boards of corporations to be made up of less other CEO than previously existed. Looking at this board, it's more about relationships to maintain strong community ties.

Thank you for finally putting some facts in the way of the tired rant about fat cats scratching each other's b***s...

I'm also a little weary about the inaccurate rant over how management cuts weren't as bad as the TWU's. You can't take away what wasn't there to begin with...

If my pay increases had matched what the TWU was getting between 1997 and 2003, I would have expected a bigger paycut. But the average pay increase for management was at most 3% every 18-24 months. How does that compare to the average TWU increase over that timeframe, including step raises and contractual increases to max?

There's also continued ignorance over the pesky little issue that management was basically cut by about 30%, but there's not much sense trying to argue with a deaf man wearing a blindfold...

 

[Wretched Wrench]

OK, lets say that happens. At that point quality either suffers, improves or stays the same. Lets assume that improvement is out of the question. If maintenance quality stays the same, the job of mechanic didn't deserve to be considered highly skilled and the reduction in pay is justified. If quality suffers, delays increase or worse planes begin to fall from the sky. Airlines will realize that having home grown high quality mechanics is more cost efficient than the cost savings that they receive from outsourced labor, etc... and they will insource maintenance and pay well enough to attract quality workers. With the changing demographics of the country that is very likely.

Nope. AA stopped paying well enough to attract quality workers some time ago. Since the CR Smith days there have always been some mechs that were not fit to adjust my lawn mower. That percentage has increased in the last 20 years. Certainly demographics play a part in this, but so do the low wages AA offered. I was always pleasantly surprised when we actually hired someone worth hiring. The good ones I queried said that AA was the only one hiring when they were applying. I am also amazed that some of the really good young wrenches are still here. Until recently, we lost many of the good new hires to other, better-paying airlines. One of the instructors at SFO put up a sign on a hangar door that said "UAL Training Facility", referring to how many new hires left for UA as soon as they met their more stringent experience requirements. All the mechs who left were top wrenches, and we never saw a loser leave. In fact, we hired many losers who all the other airlines had either refused to hire or failed on probation.

Nowadays all the airlines are seeing the same thing.....the departures of high performers. And the lops stay and stay and stay. Sort of a reverse Darwinism, if you will. Rather than the "Survival of the Fittest". we have the "Remaining of the least Fit." Then you add to that the diminution of quality of work and motivation of long-term Good Guys. On a daily basis, my jaw drops as I hear things from the Boy Scouts and Pollyannas I never thought I would hear. The only guys who are "glad they have a job" are the ones who never held a good job very long and know they are almost unemployable anywhere else. It does not bode well for safety or just good maintenance. This is mitigated somewhat by the safety of the newer designs, but there will be more accidents that are related to sloppy maintenance. There is no way in hell that piston airliners could be maintained this way by these people. Or even 707s.

Thank you for finally putting some facts in the way of the tired rant about fat cats scratching each other's b***s...

Yeah, facts are neat.

Got any facts on what other boards these directors sit?

Or what qualifications they had that made them chosen?

 

[FWAAA]

There's also continued ignorance over the pesky little issue that management was basically cut by about 30%, but there's not much sense trying to argue with a deaf man wearing a blindfold...

Similarly, there will always be those who can't understand why the pilots took a larger first year payrate cut and then had some of it restored in year two. Their failure to understand how long it takes for furloughs and downgrades to be implemented prevents them from understanding that the pilots' pay has been cut at least as much as the mechanics. All they can see is the percentage "raise" the pilots got in 2004.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

<_< ---- People! Your missing the boat here! Did I see in yesterdays paper, Bush is going to open the Sky's to foreign carriers? AND! Raise the stack in foreign ownership of American carriers! Do I smell aa/ and British Air again??? :down:

Not exactly. The President amended his proposed changes to try to satisfy Congress, but it's gonna fail.

From today's Wall Street Journal (free this week):

WASHINGTON -- The administration of U.S. President George W. Bush, bowing to pressure from Congress, is postponing final action on offering foreign investors greater control over U.S. airlines and proposing changes aimed at mollifying critics.

The proposed U.S. regulation would reinterpret longstanding policy that bars foreigners from exerting any semblance of control over airline operations. Under the proposal, foreigners could influence all commercial decisions, including questions of routes, equipment and pricing, but issues of safety, security and use of craft to aid the U.S. Defense Department would remain in American hands.

A U.S. Senate committee has approved language blocking the change, and there is significant opposition in the House, as well.

Remainder of article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1146802474...ml?mod=yahoo_hs

Translation: Congress is opposed to changing the rules on foreign ownership, and they aren't likely to be swayed by a President whose approval ratings are setting all-time lows.

 

[Hopeful]

WOWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

THAT BOARD OF DIRECTORS LIST ARE ALL POOR AND NEEDY PEOPLE!

LET'S SEE WHO'S ON THE BOARD:

BAG HANNDLERS? NO
MECHANICS? NO
TICKET AGENTS? NO


MY HEART GOES OUT TO THOSE POOR PEOPLE


WAS THAT JUDITH RODIN OF THE ROCKEFELLER FOUNDATION?


OH THAT POOR WOMAN!


Admit it, you pro mangament lackeys!

You are salavating and dancing with joy that the airlines broke the backs of their greedy union workers!

Aren't you!

Managment should reap all the benfits because they don't have to wear a worker's uniform.

You'll care about a mechanic's worth when your loved ones are killed in a plane crach thanks to an inept mechanic..

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< -----Thank you for that FWAAA! But my point was you have to watch your back door as well as your front! I hope this is a dead issue! But my bones tell me there may be more to this aa/Britsh Air thing then we know about!

 

[flyhigh]

...and having mechanics, flight attendants, and fleet service folks on the board will do what? Save the airline? Right, let's see about that. We have a well documented list of what that does...

TWA - board included reps from the 3 major unions; currently out of business

United - board included reps from pilot & maintenance/fleet svc groups; just completed 3 yr bankruptcy wiping out employee equity and board seats of union reps

Lots of good that did. Let's take a look at AMR whose board has never included a union rep? Avoided bankruptcy in the face of all doubts. Fired CEO (who appointed most of board members) when poor judgement ruined his ability to lead.

This is actually a pretty diverse set of people with the ability to run a business and thus lead the CEO and other senior management in the course of business.

As for being management lackeys...I don't think that's the case. Nor do I salivate at the lost wages and benefits. I think it's bad for the people short term. I think it's worse for this country long term. I know that each person makes a choice to stay though. If they chose to stay, it will be because they made sacrifices today to ensure a tomorrow. I think unions have a place in this inudstry and others. I think they sometimes overstep their place much like the company tries to get around them. They are equal in their blame. It's not some altruistic organization that's built solely on protecting workers. At least be honest with that. It's power is built on being inefficient, or at least creating it. More inefficiencies equals more employees...which leads to more dues money. It's a business! In the end though, your union doesn't pay your bills...the company does. With that said, it's always more important that the company survive longer than your union if that's the job you want. If it's not the job you want...move on like so many other have.

As for the foreign ownership issue...not sure I'm against that as long as protection for CRAF remains in place. It's not we're going to suddently import thoughsands of Frenchies from AirFrance to take your job. It does, however, mean that the airlines can look for new sources of capital...

 

[Hopeful]

...and having mechanics, flight attendants, and fleet service folks on the board will do what? Save the airline? Right, let's see about that. We have a well documented list of what that does...

TWA - board included reps from the 3 major unions; currently out of business

United - board included reps from pilot & maintenance/fleet svc groups; just completed 3 yr bankruptcy wiping out employee equity and board seats of union reps

Lots of good that did. Let's take a look at AMR whose board has never included a union rep? Avoided bankruptcy in the face of all doubts. Fired CEO (who appointed most of board members) when poor judgement ruined his ability to lead.

This is actually a pretty diverse set of people with the ability to run a business and thus lead the CEO and other senior management in the course of business.

As for being management lackeys...I don't think that's the case. Nor do I salivate at the lost wages and benefits. I think it's bad for the people short term. I think it's worse for this country long term. I know that each person makes a choice to stay though. If they chose to stay, it will be because they made sacrifices today to ensure a tomorrow. I think unions have a place in this inudstry and others. I think they sometimes overstep their place much like the company tries to get around them. They are equal in their blame. It's not some altruistic organization that's built solely on protecting workers. At least be honest with that. It's power is built on being inefficient, or at least creating it. More inefficiencies equals more employees...which leads to more dues money. It's a business! In the end though, your union doesn't pay your bills...the company does. With that said, it's always more important that the company survive longer than your union if that's the job you want. If it's not the job you want...move on like so many other have.

As for the foreign ownership issue...not sure I'm against that as long as protection for CRAF remains in place. It's not we're going to suddently import thoughsands of Frenchies from AirFrance to take your job. It does, however, mean that the airlines can look for new sources of capital...

I never said mechanics, pilots, flight attendants whould sit on the board of directors...I was responding to the fact that CEO's have there compensation determined by their peers.

We airline workers do not have that luxury..Someone posts the AMR board of directors and tries to dismiss them as irrelavant. They are not irrelavant. Not one of them is from the lower class of society.

And what is so wrong with protecting workers? You make it sound like a union is not needed.. Have you ever heard of favoritism?

As far as quitting for greener pastures,, there are no greener pastures as long as there are greedy mangagement running companies who view workers as disposable things.

I choose to stay at AA and remain an unhappy demoralized employee as so many of my cowrkers also choose to do.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

...and having mechanics, flight attendants, and fleet service folks on the board will do what?

Well, guy, I gotta agree with you there. I have a business degree and think a lot of myself, but no way in hell would I be a good director. Nor do I know any of my peers who would, either, no matter how highly I regard them.

That said, I am not sure we have good directors in place, either. Most BODs are rubber stamps, tokens, and country club backscratchers, to be kind. I would be interested in reading contrary opinions re AA's BOD.

 

[777 fixer]

Nope. AA stopped paying well enough to attract quality workers some time ago. Since the CR Smith days there have always been some mechs that were not fit to adjust my lawn mower. That percentage has increased in the last 20 years. Certainly demographics play a part in this, but so do the low wages AA offered. I was always pleasantly surprised when we actually hired someone worth hiring. The good ones I queried said that AA was the only one hiring when they were applying. I am also amazed that some of the really good young wrenches are still here. Until recently, we lost many of the good new hires to other, better-paying airlines. One of the instructors at SFO put up a sign on a hangar door that said "UAL Training Facility", referring to how many new hires left for UA as soon as they met their more stringent experience requirements. All the mechs who left were top wrenches, and we never saw a loser leave. In fact, we hired many losers who all the other airlines had either refused to hire or failed on probation.

Nowadays all the airlines are seeing the same thing.....the departures of high performers. And the lops stay and stay and stay. Sort of a reverse Darwinism, if you will. Rather than the "Survival of the Fittest". we have the "Remaining of the least Fit." Then you add to that the diminution of quality of work and motivation of long-term Good Guys. On a daily basis, my jaw drops as I hear things from the Boy Scouts and Pollyannas I never thought I would hear. The only guys who are "glad they have a job" are the ones who never held a good job very long and know they are almost unemployable anywhere else. It does not bode well for safety or just good maintenance. This is mitigated somewhat by the safety of the newer designs, but there will be more accidents that are related to sloppy maintenance. There is no way in hell that piston airliners could be maintained this way by these people. Or even 707s.

You seem to have mad some contradictory staments here. On one hand you say that AA stoped paying enoguh to attract "quality" workers some time ago. Then you make the statement "I am also amazed that some of the really good young wrenches are still here." Well if what you say about AA not paying enough to attract "quality" workers then there shoul'nt be any "good young wrenches".

 

[Wretched Wrench]

You seem to have mad some contradictory staments here. On one hand you say that AA stoped paying enoguh to attract "quality" workers some time ago. Then you make the statement "I am also amazed that some of the really good young wrenches are still here." Well if what you say about AA not paying enough to attract "quality" workers then there shoul'nt be any "good young wrenches".

They are only contradictory if you don't read it all. Reread this part:

"I was always pleasantly surprised when we actually hired someone worth hiring. The good ones I queried said that AA was the only one hiring when they were applying." None of us can choose our employer. We are limited in that we can choose from who is hiring and who will hire us.

However, if some of what I wrote seems contradictory, it is because I was addressing a large number of employees hired over different periods of time and during different periods of employment opportunities. Many of us took the best offer we had at the time, and many employers take the best applicants they had at the time. These facts alone will make it impossible to make one statement that is true for all people and all times. There might actually be things that would seem to be contradictory. Complex need not be contradictory, unless one engages in reductio ad absurdum.

We have indeed hired some good young wrenches. Mirabile Dictu! And some of them have stayed to become good middle-aged wrenches. Maybe they are looking at better crystal balls than I am. If I had a real good one, I would just buy the right lottery ticket and be done with it.